The Gaming Den

You read me right.

After the semi-failure of Feybook years ago, I came to a current realization that the pact-making fairly-organizing trooping faeries are far more lawful than anything else.

Maybe there are lone exceptions, but Oberon and Titania would most definitely be exemplars of order if only to rule over their realms.

They share, as a whole, more in common with devils than demons.

Could you expand on the reasoning behind this?

Look in any Monster Manual or Fiend Folio for 3.X. Fey are chaotic.

We of the Feybook project (Talisman, Bigode, and I) tried to write that into a cohesive setting wherein there is culture and cities and courts but it just. Didn't. Work.

Because they're naked-dancing nature-loving hippies. Law and Chaos have no coherent meaning, so it doesn't even matter.

Why is anything Chaotic? Or Lawful? Law and Chaos mean precisely dick in D&D so you can't really point to anything as strong evidence that something should be one and not the other.

I mean, they care not for your human laws (Chaos?), but nor do Mind Flayers (Lawful Evil). They're part of "the untamed wild" (Chaos?) but so are plants and Elementals (typically Neutral Neutral). Half of them are trick-playing pranksters (Chaos?), and while I could probably dig up a Lawful creature that basically fits that description looking at its Spell-Like Abilities, I will instead point out that the other half tend to be "enforcers of nature" (whether peacefully like Nymphs or violently like the armour-clad thing I can't remember).

They have their own society of rules and hierarchy (Law?), but so do Drow (Chaotic Evil). They're part of some ancient force far older than civilisation (Law??) but so are Demons (Chaotic Evil) and Celestials (any flavour of Good).

Fans like to see alignment, even if it means jack shit to me.

It just made things difficult.

I'd say a majority of them should be Lawful Neutral.

Pact-making, selfish, capricious when it comes to the restrictions of said pacts and fey law, but otherwise Lawful.

Things like Redcaps, Spriggans, and the various tiny fey would be Chaotic or maybe even just Neutral.

I'll play your game, you rogue.

Going by your devils/demons comparison. Devils are more about writing contracts generally with evil loopholes to dick you over and eat your soul. Demons on the other hand will work with you until "Bored now" then eat your soul.

While Fey aren't that evil they're typically described in the material they're cribbed from as either helping folks or dicking them over based on how they feel at the time. That's how they are more like demons than devils.

Pariah Dog wrote:I'll play your game, you rogue.

Going by your devils/demons comparison. Devils are more about writing contracts generally with evil loopholes to dick you over and eat your soul. Demons on the other hand will work with you until "Bored now" then eat your soul.

While Fey aren't that evil they're typically described in the material they're cribbed from as either helping folks or dicking them over based on how they feel at the time. That's how they are more like demons than devils.

You cad! Last time I checked demons don't help people.

JonSetanta wrote:

Pariah Dog wrote:I'll play your game, you rogue.

Going by your devils/demons comparison. Devils are more about writing contracts generally with evil loopholes to dick you over and eat your soul. Demons on the other hand will work with you until "Bored now" then eat your soul.

While Fey aren't that evil they're typically described in the material they're cribbed from as either helping folks or dicking them over based on how they feel at the time. That's how they are more like demons than devils.

You cad! Last time I checked demons don't help people.

They will work with evil aligned people towards evil aligned goals as long as it benefits them/they feel like it at the time.

Mythologically, fae are seen as creatures of chaos, despite their propensity for following their own laws religiously, because they follow a code of law that is alien to man, and disregard man's law, while expecting humans to abide by theirs.

Now, granted, that's pretty LE behavior in D&D, at least given traditional alignment precedence. The way I run law and chaos, it would be easier to classify that as chaotic, or at least neutral, because in my games law is about conformity, and more specifically, *caring* about conformity, rather than just applying your rules to everyone when it lets you be a dick.

If you wanted to say fae are lawful, you could make that work, and make them sorta avatars of natural law to maintain their tie to primal nature. If you wanted to say they're chaotic because they disregard man's laws, then you can just say that a lot of traditionally lawful monsters should be chaotic for the same reason

Why are [Made Up Creatures] labeled with [Undefined Definition]?

The world may never know.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:Why are [Made Up Creatures] labeled with [Undefined Definition]?

The world may never know.

-Username17

Fey are chaotic because in folklore they are vulnerable to iron which stands for a cultural and economic evolution which is commonly referenced with order which is why they are vulnurable to iron since they are said to live in tune with nature.

Because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puck_(mythology)

LAW= post WW2 Christian stuff

Fey are probably cool with sodomy so they're chaotic.

Fae are chaotic because they're flaky. If you call up a pixie to meet for lunch, it might show up right on time or it might show up three hours late without even an apology. It drives me nuts.

Law and Chaos have little if any meaning in basic DnD, because Good and Evil are a separate scale, and that's what Law and Chaos were meant to serve as stand-ins for in books from where Gygax lifted the concept. In my own setting fey are Chaotic because they disagree with the precepts of Law, such as existence of borders between planes that prevents them from coming to fuck mortals (literally or figuratively, depending on your luck, but most people don't think that having sexually liberated dryads in your forest is an adequate price for the Dread Black Knight burning your village because that's what proper villains do) whenever they want.

Okay, time for the real answer:

According to mythology, chaos is associated with the element of water and with badness. Therefore, any antagonist that is wet and/or sticky is Chaotic and any antagonist that is dry and/or crunchy is Lawful. This relationship is inverted for allies, because Good is the opposite of Evil.

Fey live in dewdrop dappled forests and skulk about in lakes with swords, so they're chaotic. Unless they're Fey protagonists in which case they're Lawful.

Devils live in Hell. And Hell is very hot and generally does not have much water. Except when it's cold, which makes it dry and crunchy, like antarctic snow. Therefore, devils are Lawful.

Demons, on the other hand, live in the Abyss - the primordial waters of creation according to the bible and many other mythologies - and are therefore aquatic creatures. Also, demons are usually covered in acidic goo, or tentacles, or are literally giant blobs of ooze. That makes demons Chaotic.

Modrons and Inevitables are both robots (which are crunchy) and therefore Lawful. Formorians are giant bugs. Bugs crunch when stepped on, therefore Formorians are Lawful. Except when they defect from their societies to help the party, in which case they're Chaotic.

Slaad are giant frogs. Frogs are kinda slimey live in the water. Therefore Slaad are Chaotic. Except for if they defect against their anarchic society to help the party, in which case they're Lawful.

Among the Evil Dragons, the Black (swamp) and White (ice) both have a swim speed and are Chaotic, while the Blue (desert) is Lawful. Meanwhile the Lawful Metallic Dragons (Silver, Bronze and Gold) can all either control the weather, swim or both. The Chaotic Metal Dragons (Copper and Brass) live respectively in canyons or in the desert. The Red (chaotic, but not obviously associated with water) and the Green (lawful, but can swim) are precisely the 'evil' dragons which the party is most likely to end up working with.

All of the Archons come from Celestia, a plane famous for its ocean of holy water. They are Good and damp and therefore Lawful.

Ghouls drool, which makes them sticky, which makes them Chaotic. Wights, on the other hand, are dry and crunchy and therefore Lawful. Mummies are also crunchy and Lawful. Shadows, who turn into pools of darkness, are Chaotic because evil pools of water-like substance are Chaotic.

Hags brew potions, which is a Chaotic thing to do because it involves water. Rakshasa are cats, who bathe themselves in order to avoid being sticky. Therefore Rakshasa are Lawful.

For underwater enemies, you ignore the wet/dry criteria (because everything is wet underwater) and invert the crunchy/sticky criteria (because Water is Chaos and therefore Backwards). Aboleths, who are covered in slime, are Lawful because Lawful is the opposite of slimey. But a Chuul (which has a crunchy shell) is Chaotic because Chaotic is the opposite of crunchy.

According to mythology

Which mythology?

Hebrew (Tehom), Sumerian (Apsu), Egyptian (Nu), Vedic (Ap), Hindu (Vritra). The whole "first there were the primordial waters, but then our god showed up (and optionally killed a dragon) to draw forth the world out of the watery abyss" idea is very common in creation myths.

Grek wrote:Okay, time for the real answer:

According to mythology, chaos is associated with the element of water and with badness. Therefore, any antagonist that is wet and/or sticky is Chaotic and any antagonist that is dry and/or crunchy is Lawful. This relationship is inverted for allies, because Good is the opposite of Evil.

Fey live in dewdrop dappled forests and skulk about in lakes with swords, so they're chaotic. Unless they're Fey Protagonists in which case they're Lawful.

Devils live in Hell. And Hell is very hot and generally does not have much water. Except when it's cold, which makes it dry and crunchy, like antarctic snow. Therefore, devils are Lawful.

Demons, on the other hand, live in the Abyss - the primordial waters of creation according to the bible and to most mythologies - and are therefore aquatic creatures. Also, demons are usually covered in acidic goo, or tentacles, or are literally giant blobs of ooze. That makes demons Chaotic.

Modrons and Inevitables are both robots (which are crunchy) and therefore Lawful. Formorians are giant bugs. Bugs crunch when stepped on, therefore Formorians are Lawful. Except when they defect from their socities to help the party, in which case they're Chaotic.

Slaad are giant frogs. Frogs are kinda slimey live in the water. Therefore Slaad are Chaotic. Except for if they defect against their anarchaic society to help the party, in which case they're Lawful.

Among the Evil Dragons, the Black (swamp) and White (ice) both have a swim speed and are Chaotic, while the Blue (desert) is Lawful. Meanwhile the Lawful Metallic Dragons (Silver, Bronze and Gold) can all either control the weather, swim or both. The Chaotic Metal Dragons (Copper and Brass) live respectively in canyons or in the desert. The Red (chaotic, but not obviously associated with water) and the Green (lawful, but can swim) are precisely the 'evil' dragons which the party is most likely to end up working with.

All of the Archons come from Celestia, a plane famous for its ocean of holy water. They are Good and Damp and therefore Lawful.

Ghouls drool, which makes them sticky, which makes them Chaotic. Wights, on the other hand, are dry and crunchy and therefore Lawful. Mummies are also crunchy and Lawful. Shadows, who turn into pools of darkness, are Chaotic because evil pools of water-like substance are Chaotic.

Hags brew potions, which is a Chaotic thing to do because it involves water. Rakshasa are cats, who bathe themselves in order to avoid being sticky. Therefore Rakshasa are Lawful.

For underwater enemies, you ignore the wet/dry criteria (because everything is wet underwater) and invert the crunchy/sticky criteria (because Water is Chaos and therefore Backwards). Aboleths, who are covered in slime, are therefore Lawful because Lawful is the opposite of slimey. But a Chuul (which has a crunchy shell) is Chaotic because Chaotic is the opposite of crunchy.

I was going to try to trip you up with Flail Snails, which are both crunchy and slimey, but it turns out those are neutral so it keeps working.

TL;DR: It's actually simple: It's because on Three Hearts and Three Lions Chaos stands for untamed, savage nature, while Law stands for civilization. It's actually the same thing with elves.


<original content>
The insanity that's D&D Alignments is better explained if the Alignments (as objective energies that actually compose the universe) actually stand for rather neutral, basic aspects of reality, and then all the extreme behavior we see being perpetrated in the name of [Alignment] is essentially hooliganism done by beings who decided to root for what's essentially "Gravity" or "Electromagnetism".

In this view, this is what the Alignments actually stand for:
Chaos: The probabilistic nature that Reality has on microscopic scales (stuff like particles/anti-particles appearing and disappearing, brownian motion and the behavior of electrons). Also, more pertinent to D&D: Rolling Dice
Law: Predictable Patterns (aka: mostly everything else you see in the universe).
Evil: Predatory Behavior
Good: Symbiotic Behavior

The ethical alignments started right with the multiverse. The moral ones started with life. Evil as soon as one protocell ate another, Good sometime after, when symbiotic behavior started (for a definition of symbiosis that includes stuff like multi-celular life). You'll easily notice that the alignments are complementar in a very yin-yang way. There's nothing keeping two cells (or wolves, or a shark/remora pair) of collaborating between themselves to absolutely ruin the day of everybody else, but that's the elemental essences of Good and Evil both at work there. Likewise, everything you see in the Universe is explained by Law, but everything actually keeps working because there are probabilistic fluctuations on several microscopic fields underneath, so Chaos can legitimally claim to have a job as important as Law on keeping everything going. (And in a very meta way, D&D only works because there are both hundreds of pages of rules and dice being rolled).

Everything was fine right until this point.

The stupid times started once life became intelligent enough to demand metaphysics, at which point the primal Alignment energies were actually concentrated around "A Great Wheel", and then there were places called "Elysium", "Nirvana", "Hades" and more troubling, "Limbo". When Outsiders arose there "to fullfill the purpose of their planes" (as Outsiders are wont to do), some had an easier time than others: For an easy time, the outsiders made of pure goodness decided that they would stand for a multiverse with more happiness and sharing. The outsiders of law wanted to see everything "more patterned" and this is why Law arbitrarily stands for stuff like "right angles" (and therefore buildings, and therefore Civilization). Lawful beings tend to prefer cities instead of jungles (despite both being nothing but patterns) just because the logic behind a city is easier to see and explain.

Chaos had the hardest time of all the alignments, because frankly, how do you stand for something like "Brownian Motion"? Chaotic beings would like a multiverse that was more random and less constant and structured, but because Reality (which includes themselves) is actually built on a stack of patterns, some chaotic beings end being stuff like Chaos Beast, that fight the oppression inflicted by "constant shapes", while others are stuff like succubi, that are rather fine with keeping the same shape (at least for hours at a time), but seek to undo the bonds of trust between people (a higher level pattern, if you will). And you can totally have people like Demogorgon, who as a top-level Just-According-to-the-Keikaku dude can look pretty much the same as his opposite Asmodeus. It's just that Asmodeus many plans inside plans will end producing a more ordered and evil universe, while Demogorgon's schemes will produce a more chaotic and evil endgame.

All this ends up explaining why the D&D multiverse works in the way it does: Some mortals want to "express themselves more" or feel too constrained by laws or whatever and as a result align themselves with chaos. Some gods are created to represent concepts like "Luck", or "Betrayal", or "Change" and them they grant access to the chaos domain. And Chaos accepts all these people, gods and ideals because it (just as Law, or Good, or Evil) doesn't fucking care.

Most people are neutral. Some people feel more extreme (or are teenagers) and dedicate themselves to an Alignment, based on whatever vision they have for them. These people then live their lives, do stuff, die and are then judged by gods (who also are people) based on whatever vision of what "Chaos" or "Good" these gods have. Then these people are more or less rewarded in planes that were originally made of the "pure" Alignment stuff, but have since being molded by thousands of particular visions.

Incidentally, this explains sanctimonious hollier-than-you paladins and other well-intentioned extremists. Paladins feel a personal connection to "Good", but it's up to them if they realize this connection by becoming upstanding nice people or genocidal orc-slayers. In this view, a Paladin is made to fall only if their powers are mediated through a god who may think different than them, or if they can be shown the error of their ways. Also incidentally, this explains noble devils and other anti-heroes that seem popular in anime these days since at very least Go-Nagai's time. A character can do nothing but decent things during a campaign and still have "Neutral Evil" written on his character sheet as long as they claim that "I'm only playing nice so that these fools trust me" (and will keep doing that until the day he dies). This character is only in trouble if he prays to the God of Puppy-Kicking.

Finally, people are affected by alignment magic based on what they think they stand for. Outsiders have less choice on this matter, since they can be made of stuff that actually counts as "good". But even people are slow to change the way they think about themselves, so it's not as if a smart ass character can change alignments on a whim to get the best results of a Holy Word and Blasphemy spells. Gods in particular tend to all hate when people change alignments to one that's not theirs, and they remember these things. But people can totally have "changes of mind" where their alignment goes from "Chaotic Neutral" to "Lawful Good" and their behavior barely changes - maybe their lawns get trimmed more often, but they are still the same asshole as before.

Thus, you can totally have mystery stories with Alignments: "Oh, the buttler is Neutral Evil", the Diviner can say. But is him an actually murderous neutral evil? Or is he just a misanthrope who thinks that everybody else but him should just catch fire? Just Detect Alignment doesn't answer that!

</original content>

There, I fixed alignment for you.

I'm angry that Grek just posted borderline gibberish with twisted logic, and that it's by far the best reasoning for alignment I've read.

That is a quality post.

Why are fey chaotic? Heres my stab at justifying it.

all fey love randomness, and hate civilization. They would much rather be in the woods doing whatever, or breaking into town and playing pranks than any of that stuffy civilized stuff.

The problem? All fey have one rule or law by which they must abide. Some are worse than others, but all fey have one. Fey know this, and hate it, so they do their best to avoid it or get out of it. Other people who realize this fact can get these normally wild beings to settle down and be helpful.

Example:
the fey queen must govern. This sucks a lot because she doesnt want to and no one wants her to. She is powerful though, so they generally listen if she can find them.

Dryads have to protect a specific tree at all costs. The would love to leave but doing so is risky. They are lonely and play pranks on people near their tree.

Leprechauns have to give you their money if you catch them. They love flashing gold around in towns, and money based pranks.

Rumplestiltskin has to something something if you know his name. He wants a baby, but this makes dating hard.

Fastqchee have to grow super grow your corn if you ask politely. They love to sleep in and wear corn husks. They dont particularly want to be corn growing slaves.

Tldr: fey are chaotic and hate rules, even if they have to abide by some.

nockermensch wrote:In this view, this is what the Alignments actually stand for:
Chaos: The probabilistic nature that Reality has on microscopic scales (stuff like particles/anti-particles appearing and disappearing, brownian motion and the behavior of electrons). Also, more pertinent to D&D: Rolling Dice
Law: Predictable Patterns (aka: mostly everything else you see in the universe).
Evil: Predatory Behavior
Good: Symbiotic Behavior

The ethical alignments started right with the multiverse. The moral ones started with life. Evil as soon as one protocell ate another, Good sometime after, when symbiotic behavior started (for a definition of symbiosis that includes stuff like multi-celular life). You'll easily notice that the alignments are complementar in a very yin-yang way. There's nothing keeping two cells (or wolves, or a shark/remora pair) of collaborating between themselves to absolutely ruin the day of everybody else, but that's the elemental essences of Good and Evil both at work there. Likewise, everything you see in the Universe is explained by Law, but everything actually keeps working because there are probabilistic fluctuations on several microscopic fields underneath, so Chaos can legitimally claim to have a job as important as Law on keeping everything going.

[...]

Chaos had the hardest time of all the alignments, because frankly, how do you stand for something like "Brownian Motion"? Chaotic beings would like a multiverse that was more random and less constant and structured, but because Reality (which includes themselves) is actually built on a stack of patterns, some chaotic beings end being stuff like Chaos Beast, that fight the oppression inflicted by "constant shapes", while others are stuff like succubi, that are rather fine with keeping the same shape (at least for hours at a time), but seek to undo the bonds of trust between people (a higher level pattern, if you will).

To build on this, the creation myth in D&D is indeed that Law and Chaos came first and Good and Evil came afterwards, but more importantly, in the big war between Law and Chaos in the beginning of time, Law actually won.

That's why both Law and Chaos have equal portions in the same Great Wheel instead of having a bunch of organized planes of Law in a Great Wheel/Tree/Box/Whatever and a bunch of disorganized planes of Chaos somewhere else (because the forces of Law imposed their rules on the multiverse after the Battle of Pesh when there were no great powers of Chaos to oppose them), why the Inner Planes are a set of elemental planes combined and subdivided into paraelemental, quasielemental, etc. planes instead of a big Limbo-esque shifting mass of elements (because the forces of Law were led by the Wind Dukes of Aaqa whose empire originated on the Inner Planes and who held the Inner Planes against the forces of Chaos), why the Abyss is a collection of layers instead of one formless mass (because the rule of Law declared that Planes Shall Have Layers, No Exceptions), and so forth.

Eladrin, slaad, demons, fey, and so forth are similarly forced into distinct, predictable, stat-able forms with defined powers and hierarchies and such because of this overarching Law. I'd postulate, then, that the increasingly-popular Far Realm and its denizens are what things looked like before the war and what Chaos would look like without Law imposing on it: formless, indistinct, contradictory, and un-statted...and unable to affect or enter the multiverse without conforming with Law to some degree, hence the tentacles-and-eyes theme to what should be completely unfathomable monsters.

nockermensch wrote:The outsiders of law wanted to see everything "more patterned" and this is why Law arbitrarily stands for stuff like "right angles" (and therefore buildings, and therefore Civilization). Lawful beings tend to prefer cities instead of jungles (despite both being nothing but patterns) just because the logic behind a city is easier to see and explain.

In a way, the whole 3H&3L-inspired civilization-versus-nature conflict in which the fey are involved is a microcosm of the larger conflict above, so it's not just that cities are "more lawful" than jungles because the order in them is more obvious but also that the forces of capital-L Law stand for imposing their own view of order onto what they view as chaos; perhaps had a different faction represented Law in the big war, jungles would be viewed as just as orderly as cities and in a balance with them, or perhaps even more orderly and complex.

So any creatures related to nature-as-a-primitive/primordial-existence would tend towards Chaos in this worldview (as opposed to a nature-as-an-uncaring-backdrop view, which is more of a Neutral thing, or nature-as-endless-ineffable-cycles, which is more of a Lawful thing).

(And in a very meta way, D&D only works because there are both hundreds of pages of rules and dice being rolled).

I've played around with this premise before. The creation myth of D&D is basically a war between Chaos, who arose from a formless nothingness that did what it pleased and wanted to see everything return to that wibbly-wobbly unpredictability, and Law, who arose from a transient bubble of non-randomness in the primordial void and want to see everything organized into a rigid, all-encompassing order, with Neutrality standing around impartially either helping parts of both sides or waiting to see who won. This was all canonized in 2e, after the Basic D&D/Advanced D&D split.

That conflict kind of maps, if you squint, to Chaos as freeform roleplaying, Law as DM fiat, and Neutrality as impartial dice rolling, and the outcome--that Law won and imposed its order on the multiverse such that Chaos still exists but only at the sufferance of Law and Neutrality largely cooperates with Law to keep things nice and balanced and static--is almost a parable for how D&D started with a handful of handwavey rules that became increasingly codified over time and the rules-heavy AD&D "won" over the rules-lighter BD&D, and even though DMs have full control over the game there's lots of stuff in the books like strong advice to constrain rulings, random tables to help generate plots/NPCs/environments/etc. instead of relying on total improvisation, increasing codification and player empowerment as the edition rolls on, and so forth that work in service of the greater rules.

(The context for my using this was a previous 3e campaign where the main antagonist was the Forces of Chaos, who wanted to return the multiverse to its primordial state. When they conquered/infected an area, instead of having wild magic or other random effects, I had the rules change to work based on previous editions, going back farther the worse the corruption got. Having the party walk into an area and suddenly find that they were using THAC0 instead of BAB was much more effective at being disorienting than "Roll d%...okay, your fireball is now blue," and having things slowly get more and more "primordial" until they're desperately using just their d20, d6, and ability scores to prevent the very concept of numbers and rules from vanishing from the world was definitely memorable.)

What Good and Evil would mean in this context is left as an exercise to the reader.