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I've never seen so much drama over "lifestyle" decisions in RPGs that facilitate that little piece of simulation and yet, in the same token, also be the cause of some pretty authentic bonding between players (and their characters, of course!) over their shared lifestyle.

(Actually, no, I've seen MUCH worse drama -- been part of more than some myself -- but that's another thread...)

Like I've had players give shit to other players for choosing a "top" lifestyle or one near the top and then had others, like, gloat over their top lifestyle being rewarded come downtime compared to others who were like "I rweary need the autorifle with AP rounds!". And then when it comes to RP, it's actually been pleasantly surprising when the guys actually RP hanging out pre/post-mission or, say, the perils of being utterly broke as shit.

I think it's awesome when games do include lifestyle sub-systems in their ruleset -- even better, when they actually reward players in it or it influences play in some way. It can just be basic prompts for the GM -- "well, you've got hot water at night and the front door locks..." -- but at least then the players will probs have read that themselves and, strangely enough, will probably actually WANT to RP that. And its always a good sesh when the PCs finally can afford the next tier up, feels like they've done something major.

Anyone experienced this shit in their own games? What's your take on these type of systems?

The SR3 lifestyle system was ludicrous . . you basically built a second character with that system. And it ended the exact same way as it did with expensive vehicles and cyberdecks . . BOOM . . yes, there went 50% of your overall characters generation budget <.<

Can you explain what you mean by "lifestyle systems?"

Rules for playing Murder-Hobo or Luxury Penthouse Corporate Assassination Mage,

Prak wrote:Can you explain what you mean by "lifestyle systems?"

Being able to select the type of living arrangements your character has outside of missions. Can include social activities they partake in that maintain social connections or their day job/career if they are somehow able to keep one up. Even stuff like augmenting and customizing a stronghold might be considered part of it. Stahl's SR ref is apt -- from Streets all the way to Luxury is a consolidated form of the concept.

Many if not most games simply do not bother with the logistics and minutiae of that stuff at all.
It is simply assumed that, somewhere, hidden in what counts as character backstory, there is a place away from the dungeon, from the slaughterhouse, from the streets of rage.
Most people do not want to bother with this stuff either. It is usually adlibbed on the fly when actually needed.
For that reason, SR3 also had simplified lifestyles: street, low, medium, high, luxury.
Some character concepts demanded specific ways of living. The Gargoyle Shaman for example needed to live either in a castle or in a high up penthouse. So basically either high or luxury lifestyle needed.
Cat-Shamans had problems with their TNs when unkempt, so they demanded at least a low to medium lifestyle where they could actually get cleaned up.
But other than this?
Look at DnD. Character dies. Your smaller group rounds a corner:"HAIL ADVENTURERS! I WAS GETTING LONELY! LET ME TRAVEL WITH YOU!" and done.

SR style Lifestyle is a fun idea that makes for a bad system. It's useful to have an easy shorthand for how large various people are living and it's fun to hand out a ritzy safehouse as a purely IC "fluff" reward but that's about as far as the benefits go. Adding book keeping and making all this stuff fungible just adds a whole bunch of overhead just so that your players can then try to pawn that shit and get some more 'ware.

In GURPS Goblins, the lifestyle system almost is the game. Your social status is a modifier on almost all rolls, and you increase and maintain your status by conspicuous consumption. Buying a nicer house literally levels you up.

I don't get it. Where's the beef with someone living in a penthouse and someone else eating ramen? The one SR game I played where I had substantially nicer living arrangements than anyone else, I invited everyone back for pre-mission planning and cocktails anyway. What drama ensues?

I feel lifestyle works best when the currency used for being a normal person is not the currency you use for magic swords, illegal guns

SlyJohnny wrote:I don't get it. Where's the beef with someone living in a penthouse and someone else eating ramen? The one SR game I played where I had substantially nicer living arrangements than anyone else, I invited everyone back for pre-mission planning and cocktails anyway. What drama ensues?

You are career criminals operating under code names doing highly illegal stuff.
You basically do not want anybody to find out who you really are, ever . .

I don't know for sure what kind of drama they meant either, honestly. The biggest issue I have with SR Lifestyles is that you're often better off winging it and handing it out like candy as a reward rather than expecting people to take money out of their mission survival fund.

Besides, in my vision of Shadowrun the typical high end fixer operates kinda like the Hollywood stereotype of a shady music industry suit. They're loathe to actually just outright pay you what you're worth in hard nuyen or other fungible assets but they're connected and as long as you're a part of their crew you're never the one getting stuck with the check after bottle service in the VIP suite. Basically, I see it as a world where it's easy to party hard but difficult to retire.

I found "has a lot of money" to be prone to breaking games. Some players are rather familiar with the concept of leverage and starting them with a very long lever is just trouble.

Best thing I saw for having a lifestyle was a D&D clone where you only got XP for "spending" any treasure found. Where that could be parties, buying the tavern, founding a guild, or whatever, because it rewards treasure seeking and avoiding fights, leaves wandering monsters fun instead of stupid, and doesn't care what you do with it afterward except for not keeping it as adventuring gear.

Worst thing was probably 3e D&D, where it was vital to crowbar up any world building stuff you found into fungible items for exchange into personal powerups, and then 3.5 where if you did that the GM would have to stop putting nice things in the world to put your WBL back on the rails.

But that's really just fungible gold/magic being terrible, in that it ruins the background.

Tormenta allows you to spend different tiers of extra gold on basic necessities like food/clothing/lodging to gain a bonus on all Cha-based skills and checks, which I believe it's simple enough while still providing a bonus for binging out.

Stahlseele wrote:

SlyJohnny wrote:I don't get it. Where's the beef with someone living in a penthouse and someone else eating ramen? The one SR game I played where I had substantially nicer living arrangements than anyone else, I invited everyone back for pre-mission planning and cocktails anyway. What drama ensues?

You are career criminals operating under code names doing highly illegal stuff.
You basically do not want anybody to find out who you really are, ever .

Al Capone was renowed for living a pretty public life.

And everybody knows who Lex Luthor is.

Gandonorf in Ocarina of Time starts off working as a diplomat.

Just because you're doing highly illegal stuff doesn't mean you can't live the high life, you just need to make sure to don't leave any proof linking your public figure to your criminal one.

Whipstitch wrote:operates kinda like the Hollywood stereotype of a shady music industry suit. They're loathe to actually just outright pay you what you're worth in hard nuyen or other fungible assets but they're connected and as long as you're a part of their crew you're never the one getting stuck with the check after bottle service in the VIP suite. Basically, I see it as a world where it's easy to party hard but difficult to retire.

a) Shadowrun is the only game I've seen where this has been really used, generally hand-waved/tied to resource ratings in other games.

b) I fucking love this idea, Whip. Stolen for next time I'm pushed into running SR, or any other dystopian game. Genuinely hadn't crossed my mind!

The whole point of shadowrun is that everybody is looking out for numbero uno. Backstabbing is not the exeption, but the expected outcome.

Street Names and certified credsticks were used for a reason.
NO REAL NAME NEEDED. Your SIN and your Street Name should never ever be connected.

In all my years of playing, i can count the number of times where one of my own team got near to my crib on one hand and i still have fingers left.

Only one of those times nothing bad happened immediately after or as the consequence of that.

Shadow of the Demon Lord roughly has a Lifestyle system, which you get one for free at start, but every adventure afterwards you have to pay for a Lifestyle of varying degree (Destitute/Poor/Getting By/Comfortable/Wealthy/Rich/). Starting is most notable for this where being Rich gets you horses/servant/Fighting-Man which is sweet when you're in peasant territory. Though Comfortable+, you get to make a check to see if you saved some random pocket change, which is never quite enough to pay for your lifestyle, but in some cases almost so.


In my SR experience, we seem to be trained on the "cooperative" bit of RPG's where we all agree to work together always, so it usually ends up with our PC's living together. Especially with sexy Base of Operations to put up all our cool stuff we've bought, or acquired on Runs.

Yes, well, me and my buddies we are all not what you would call nice people.
Not to others for the most part and most certainly often enough not to each other either.
It's why we get along so well, ironically. But yes, we fuck each over for fun and profit. Or we did, when we still had the time to play.

maglag wrote:Just because you're doing highly illegal stuff doesn't mean you can't live the high life, you just need to make sure to don't leave any proof linking your public figure to your criminal one.

In some places, living the right kind of high life was/is a useful way of keeping the public on side and have blind eyes turned to your activities.

Stahlseele wrote:The whole point of shadowrun is that everybody is looking out for numbero uno. Backstabbing is not the exeption, but the expected outcome.

Street Names and certified credsticks were used for a reason.
NO REAL NAME NEEDED. Your SIN and your Street Name should never ever be connected.

In all my years of playing, i can count the number of times where one of my own team got near to my crib on one hand and i still have fingers left.

Only one of those times nothing bad happened immediately after or as the consequence of that.

This guy really gets it. If you have decent players, they'll do a total buy-in to the setting and, if you're anywhere near a competent GM, you'll totally condone them screwing each other over if it serves their interests.

Aryxbez wrote:Shadow of the Demon Lord roughly has a Lifestyle system, which you get one for free at start, but every adventure afterwards you have to pay for a Lifestyle of varying degree (Destitute/Poor/Getting By/Comfortable/Wealthy/Rich/). Starting is most notable for this where being Rich gets you horses/servant/Fighting-Man which is sweet when you're in peasant territory. Though Comfortable+, you get to make a check to see if you saved some random pocket change, which is never quite enough to pay for your lifestyle, but in some cases almost so.


In my SR experience, we seem to be trained on the "cooperative" bit of RPG's where we all agree to work together always, so it usually ends up with our PC's living together. Especially with sexy Base of Operations to put up all our cool stuff we've bought, or acquired on Runs.

Yep, SOTDL does pretty nicely in this respect. There's actual codified rewards compared to SR.

What I did for SOTDL when I ran my last campaign was to have the players roll [X]d3 or [X]d6 and each level was assigned CP, SP or GP. This meant the players always had starting cash between adventures and it added a random element factor so they might get a lot or hardly anything. I then added two additional checks: a standard Attribute roll to give them a small bonus item or additional cash, an additional roll after that with two Banes that got them something more impressive and powerful (again, roughly scaled to the group level). Both rolls if failed result in bad times for the PCs -- especially the second one which will almost certainly result in unsoakable damage dealt or the loss of cash or equipment or even a fight!

This still lead to drama but luckily in a good way because the PCs started lending money to each other. It actually started to get tense RP-wise because one PC's debt kept growing and they were fucking up at the same time during missions. I felt that was a pretty good sign the campaign was on track with the "adventure together, grow together" type mindset the system was written in mind with.

Never really liked Shadowrun way of doing it, because it added little to the game imo. I'll take a look at SOTDL though, this is the second time I hear good things of it.

What about games that are about their lifestyles? I mean the likes of King Arthur Pendragon, Sagas of the Icelanders or Traveller where managing your fief, upholding your social position or tracking down cargos or trade routes are central, or at least very important, to the gameplay?

PrometheanVigil wrote:Both rolls if failed result in bad times for the PCs -- especially the second one which will almost certainly result in unsoakable damage dealt or the loss of cash or equipment or even a fight!

> Both rolls result in bad times

PrometheanVigil wrote:This guy really gets it. If you have decent players, they'll do a total buy-in to the setting and, if you're anywhere near a competent GM, you'll totally condone them screwing each other over if it serves their interests.

I'm not really against that playstyle but I'd emphasize that it's not actually that unusual for crime crews to live together or otherwise display a fair amount of trust in Shadowrun and other cyberpunk fiction. Betrayal is a common theme but the protags of many stories are often people who are still loyal enough to a chosen few that revenge is personally gratifying as well as a matter of sending a message. Shadowrun has had many, many cooks in the kitchen and there's a lot of room for different types of working relationships without going off theme.

I mean, shit, for all of talk I just did about having a shady fixer I also always tried to allow for exceptions to the general rule and have contacts who are willing to stick their necks out a bit when taken at high values. Otherwise it's easy for the game to devolve into Paranoia.

PrometheanVigil wrote: This guy really gets it. If you have decent players, they'll do a total buy-in to the setting and, if you're anywhere near a competent GM, you'll totally condone them screwing each other over if it serves their interests.

That works fine if you like having to replace all the characters, and quite possibly most of the players, fairly often. Because in most games I was in the players are not going to cut their losses. They are going to war regardless of the economics.

OgreBattle wrote:I feel lifestyle works best when the currency used for being a normal person is not the currency you use for magic swords, illegal guns

^ this

Or lifestyle should give bonus the same way a magic sword do.