The Gaming Den

I am curious how people here run tome games.

What classes do you use? Do you allow 3.5 or pathfinder stuff on a case by case basis?
Do you use Tome feats?

Personally the thing that I like most about Tome are the scaling items with red robs errata added to them.

I use the majority of Tome stuff - the small skill changes, the classes, the race modifications, some of the core setting assumptions/options, the scaling bonuses of magic items, sometimes one version or another of the scaling Tome Armour. And I've often used the big scaling Tome feats, but if I ran a game these days I'd probably go with the "at least one feat per level and they're individual, relatively minor things that are nonetheless useful". Bonus Feats from Samurai etc. would become scaling class features that remain the same in effect, if I did this.

Some things I don't allow that come to mind are Tome Fighter, Tome Soulborn (at least without some nerfs), Combat School and Product of Celestial Dalliance. 3.5 and/or PF stuff is allowed on request as is any 3rd party or homebrew.

I use Red_Rob's items and armors, but I use the numbers from Kaelik's Alternative Item Bonus Progression as an inherent bonus and just use the effects from Rob's stuff without using the 1/3 HD round up stuff from Rob/Book of Gears. Also, Kaelik Skill Groups.

I use 'big feats' (e.g. scaling feats and most other 'Tome Feats', e.g. Product of Infernal Dalliance, Wings of Evil) and 'small feats' (regular 3.5 or PF stuff or homebrew of equivalent power) (big feats at 1, 3, 6, 9. 12, etc. and small feats at every other level) and I use Alpha Metamagic (3.5 or PF metamagic feats get converted to use Alpha Metamagic). Something I haven't done before but probably will do next time I have enough time to run a game is remove prereqs from things except minimum level. Ideally I'd have enough time to stat monsters and NPCs using the same feat setup, but I'm lazy and instead tend to use existing statblocks and just use a slightly higher than normal EL (usually 'more' enemies instead of higher level enemies).

Koumei wrote:I use the majority of Tome stuff - the small skill changes, the classes, the race modifications, some of the core setting assumptions/options, the scaling bonuses of magic items, sometimes one version or another of the scaling Tome Armour. And I've often used the big scaling Tome feats, but if I ran a game these days I'd probably go with the "at least one feat per level and they're individual, relatively minor things that are nonetheless useful". Bonus Feats from Samurai etc. would become scaling class features that remain the same in effect, if I did this.

I actually was wondering what to do with the samurai, because I also want to avoid the scaling tome feats. I was thinking of just giving him one bonus feat per 2 levels like the basic fighter gets.

radthemad4 wrote:Some things I don't allow that come to mind are Tome Fighter, Tome Soulborn (at least without some nerfs), Combat School and Product of Celestial Dalliance. 3.5 and/or PF stuff is allowed on request as is any 3rd party or homebrew.

Is the Soulborn stronger than Tome Soldier?

radthemad4 wrote: I use Red_Rob's items and armors, but I use the numbers from Kaelik's Alternative Item Bonus Progression as an inherent bonus and just use the effects from Rob's stuff without using the 1/3 HD round up stuff from Rob/Book of Gears. Also, Kaelik Skill Groups.

This can work if you don't care about emphasizing magic items as rewards. Though I guess you could also say that you can only unlock the progression bonus, only if you have a fitting magic item.

radthemad4 wrote: I use 'big feats' (e.g. scaling feats and most other 'Tome Feats', e.g. Product of Infernal Dalliance, Wings of Evil) and 'small feats' (regular 3.5 or PF stuff or homebrew of equivalent power) (big feats at 1, 3, 6, 9. 12, etc. and small feats at every other level) and I use Alpha Metamagic (3.5 or PF metamagic feats get converted to use Alpha Metamagic). Something I haven't done before but probably will do next time I have enough time to run a game is remove prereqs from things except minimum level. Ideally I'd have enough time to stat monsters and NPCs using the same feat setup, but I'm lazy and instead tend to use existing statblocks and just use a slightly higher than normal EL (usually 'more' enemies instead of higher level enemies).

I like alpha metamagic. Kealiks skill groups I would also use if I used the normal 3.5 skills, without collapsing skills together.

Ideally will you give the scaling tome feats to monsters?

VladtheLad wrote:Is the Soulborn stronger than Tome Soldier?

I'm not sure but IME it seems like Soulborns can do more stuff. Either way, I think I'd recommend removing all instances of 'add a different ability mod to a thing' or 'add an ability mod to a thing twice' and replace with 'optionally substitute the ability mod for a different ability mod' to alleviate that somewhat. Anyway,

Kaelik wrote:Soulborn is power creep the class
starting point for soulborn
take away all the RNG bonuses
alll of them

no endless smiting, no Cha to saves, no basic bonuses on your chakra things

also, the parry magic
should just fuck off and die
like how mean do you have to be to the Samurai
to give a class that can already bind an item to counterspell
just a free counterspell on everything ever
and then level 12 just get free save or stun
because apparently the class with magic powers out the ass and RNG breaking bonus, just didn't have enough

I'd also get rid of the Demon Summoning Soulmeld and Pressing Assault (this one isn't that big a deal, but it feels like a pointless additional power and should maybe be a Samurai ability instead).

VladtheLad wrote:This can work if you don't care about emphasizing magic items as rewards. Though I guess you could also say that you can only unlock the progression bonus, only if you have a fitting magic item.

Magic items are still cool, they're just not obligatory to keep up with enemies if you remove the numbers.

VladtheLad wrote:I like alpha metamagic. Kealiks skill groups I would also use if I used the normal 3.5 skills, without collapsing skills together.

Kaelik's skill groups are better than skill consolidation. Skill consolidation just makes it so people take more of the next few best skills usually. With skill groups it's fine if some skills are shitty as you're not trading out ranks in better skills with that and it forces a bit more diversity onto people. This way maybe someone can take perform or appraise or whatever without giving up ranks in something actually good. But most people really hate skill groups because they're fiddly.

Also, I let everything be a class skill.

VladtheLad wrote:Ideally will you give the scaling tome feats to monsters?

Sometimes sure, but I'd cap the benefits to CR. If a 60 HD CR 3 monster has a scaling feat, they still only get upto the 3rd level benefits.

Oh, one more thing, don't use Lift. Someone who specs for grapple or a big monster can kill things with it way too easily. If the lifter has edge, the liftee is pretty much dead weight unless they have abilities that don't count as attacks.

I'ven't used Kaelik's skill groups, but only because I'ven't run a game since seeing them. I probably would at least test it out in future.

Having played a Soulborn, I agree that it's too much. The infinite Smiting and "You pass every saving throw ever" and then infinite Stunning are individually great things you'd love to have, and it gets all of them (depending on the level).

I'm currently running a Tome game with Pathfinder classes considered upon request. I'm using scaling feats because I never had a chance to try them out earlier. 3.5 skill list with Pathfinder +3 class skill bonus instead of extra skill points. Mostly Red_Rob's scaling items, but wealth by level will be out the window shortly.

The party consists of a barbarian, a druid, a Pathfinder summoner, and a pair of True Fiends (one of which is down a level and gestalted with Sorcerer - weirdness from a previous campaign). Everyone's had some pretty good moments. They've mostly faced hordes of lower-level enemies though, so we'll see how things go once they get into some areas with opposition closer to their level.

The premise of the campaign includes a vault full of wonky magic items left behind by a weird cult. Because I want my players to actually try things instead of just leaving them or throwing them all in a lead-lined box, I've imported the Pathfinder rules for identifying items. To keep some of the risk, they usually need to beat the "base" DC by ten or more to find flaws or drawbacks, and the caster needs to handle the item to identify it. Per Tome most cursed items can't do anything until you try to attune to them, but there are some that are essentially traps with a touch or proximity trigger. Rogues can detect those like normal magic traps, but because nobody has trapfinding it's a moot point so far.

Unknown to the players, they're on a time limit to save some of the NPCs they're looking for. One is a Soulborn that's going to get drider'd if they take too long. If that happens there's a fair chance she takes one or two players down out of nowhere with essentially no warning - invisibility plus huge damage and stunning (from Combat School) means she can wait for them to pass under her and murder the backline. Full base attack bonus with scaling feats and guaranteed access to all the "required" items makes her pretty tough, plus she gets actual gear on top of it.

I definitely need to throw more sneak attacks at them in general because when they manage to enter in formation the barbarian and melee-focused true fiend roflstomp everything they can reach. That's pretty much the point of the barbarian, but I need to make sure the others have a time to shine in combat.

I'm also trying out one of Koumei's monster classes: the Dweller in the Depths. The party is currently above the sea hag's waterfall and intending to descend. I'm not sure if I want her to pretend to be a harmless nymph before blasting as many people as she can with her Hideous Appearance and attacking, or if she'll just hide as a fish or something and jump out behind them to pick off a straggler.

A previous one-shot had a Soulborn and a Fire Mage. Their consistent damage was very useful, and the Soulborn's random utility stuff was pretty good too. They cleared the way for two players to charge by having the Soulborn walk on the walls instead of the floor and things like that.

For a future game, I'll probaby try Kaelik's skill groups and one feat per level.

radthemad4 wrote:

VladtheLad wrote:Is the Soulborn stronger than Tome Soldier?

I'm not sure but IME it seems like Soulborns can do more stuff. Either way, I think I'd recommend removing all instances of 'add a different ability mod to a thing' or 'add an ability mod to a thing twice' and replace with 'optionally substitute the ability mod for a different ability mod' to alleviate that somewhat. Anyway,

Kaelik wrote:Soulborn is power creep the class
starting point for soulborn
take away all the RNG bonuses
alll of them

no endless smiting, no Cha to saves, no basic bonuses on your chakra things

also, the parry magic
should just fuck off and die
like how mean do you have to be to the Samurai
to give a class that can already bind an item to counterspell
just a free counterspell on everything ever
and then level 12 just get free save or stun
because apparently the class with magic powers out the ass and RNG breaking bonus, just didn't have enough

I'd also get rid of the Demon Summoning Soulmeld and Pressing Assault (this one isn't that big a deal, but it feels like a pointless additional power and should maybe be a Samurai ability instead).

Makes sense, though I haven't examined the Soulborn on any particular depth, so who am I to tell.

radthemad4 wrote:Kaelik's skill groups are better than skill consolidation. Skill consolidation just makes it so people take more of the next few best skills usually. With skill groups it's fine if some skills are shitty as you're not trading out ranks in better skills with that and it forces a bit more diversity onto people. This way maybe someone can take perform or appraise or whatever without giving up ranks in something actually good. But most people really hate skill groups because they're fiddly.

Also, I let everything be a class skill.

Yeah, but sometimes I might use pathfinder skills for consistency if I am planning to use pathfinder monsters. If I want people to have stuff like appraise either I automatically give skill unlocks for weak skills or allow for extra skill point to spent on background skills.
Personally I do like the skill groups, since they also make the class stat of X+int skill points more important.

radthemad4 wrote:Oh, one more thing, don't use Lift. Someone who specs for grapple or a big monster can kill things with it way too easily. If the lifter has edge, the liftee is pretty much dead weight unless they have abilities that don't count as attacks.

Woa! hadn't noticed that. Thanks.

rampaging-poet wrote:I'm currently running a Tome game with Pathfinder classes considered upon request. I'm using scaling feats because I never had a chance to try them out earlier. 3.5 skill list with Pathfinder +3 class skill bonus instead of extra skill points. Mostly Red_Rob's scaling items, but wealth by level will be out the window shortly.

The party consists of a barbarian, a druid, a Pathfinder summoner, and a pair of True Fiends (one of which is down a level and gestalted with Sorcerer - weirdness from a previous campaign). Everyone's had some pretty good moments. They've mostly faced hordes of lower-level enemies though, so we'll see how things go once they get into some areas with opposition closer to their level.

The premise of the campaign includes a vault full of wonky magic items left behind by a weird cult. Because I want my players to actually try things instead of just leaving them or throwing them all in a lead-lined box, I've imported the Pathfinder rules for identifying items. To keep some of the risk, they usually need to beat the "base" DC by ten or more to find flaws or drawbacks, and the caster needs to handle the item to identify it. Per Tome most cursed items can't do anything until you try to attune to them, but there are some that are essentially traps with a touch or proximity trigger. Rogues can detect those like normal magic traps, but because nobody has trapfinding it's a moot point so far.

Unknown to the players, they're on a time limit to save some of the NPCs they're looking for. One is a Soulborn that's going to get drider'd if they take too long. If that happens there's a fair chance she takes one or two players down out of nowhere with essentially no warning - invisibility plus huge damage and stunning (from Combat School) means she can wait for them to pass under her and murder the backline. Full base attack bonus with scaling feats and guaranteed access to all the "required" items makes her pretty tough, plus she gets actual gear on top of it.

I definitely need to throw more sneak attacks at them in general because when they manage to enter in formation the barbarian and melee-focused true fiend roflstomp everything they can reach. That's pretty much the point of the barbarian, but I need to make sure the others have a time to shine in combat.

I'm also trying out one of Koumei's monster classes: the Dweller in the Depths. The party is currently above the sea hag's waterfall and intending to descend. I'm not sure if I want her to pretend to be a harmless nymph before blasting as many people as she can with her Hideous Appearance and attacking, or if she'll just hide as a fish or something and jump out behind them to pick off a straggler.

A previous one-shot had a Soulborn and a Fire Mage. Their consistent damage was very useful, and the Soulborn's random utility stuff was pretty good too. They cleared the way for two players to charge by having the Soulborn walk on the walls instead of the floor and things like that.

For a future game, I'll probaby try Kaelik's skill groups and one feat per level.

Why would anyone play a pathfinder class instead of a Tome one? I guess 9th level casters like the witch and the shaman are worth it, but not so sure about anything else.

Do you use pathinfer spells or 3.5 spells or both?

Only played a bit of TOMES on here, built some characters.

The Classes that are written in a way I enjoy are...


Soulborn, easy to understand with lots of options.

Samurai, super straightforward kill guy

Monk, great balance between clear to build and clear to play with stance mechanics

Mage (Spheres), much easier to build than Wizard, but scratches the itch most players want from being a wizard.

Totemist, like the Soulborn made from various parts that feel thematic and aren't difficult to understand in play.

Cleric (auras), not sure if Kaelik's cleric was ever finished but it has a nifty mechanic of auras that can be cashed in for a one time effect.

I'd want to see a future edition of D&D use the above class mechanics for core classes.


Fighter- Samurai Kiai

Paladin and other Chosen/Champion concepts- Soulborn mantles

Rogue/Swashbuckler/Monk/Ninja- Monk stances

Wizard- Mage spheres

Transformation Druid, Berserker- Totemist Totems

Robed Druid/Cleric- Cleric Auras

Soulborn's a neat concept, it's just too powerful as written. I totes think a nerfed Soulborn should be an option for PCs.

VladtheLad wrote:Why would anyone play a pathfinder class instead of a Tome one? I guess 9th level casters like the witch and the shaman are worth it, but not so sure about anything else.

Do you use pathinfer spells or 3.5 spells or both?

Not addressed to me, but the PF Summoner is actually a 9 caster disguised as a 6 caster. If you like the idea of building a super pet (or having a magical creature suit) and also summoning things and casting spells, PF Summoner's a decent way to go.

Also, not addressed to me, but I use 3.5 as the 'base' for everything and 3.5 takes precedence mainly because it's what I'm more familiar with, but I'll usually allow stuff from PF if someone requests something. I've used monsters and/or NPCs from PF mostly as is against players without much issue.

VladtheLad wrote: Why would anyone play a pathfinder class instead of a Tome one? I guess 9th level casters like the witch and the shaman are worth it, but not so sure about anything else.

Do you use pathinfer spells or 3.5 spells or both?

As radthemad4 guessed, this player was super-hyped to try out the whole customizable pet thing. She'd have played a summoner in literally any campaign I ran that allowed one. It's worked out so far, but mostly because Create Pit is a pretty good spell.

For the most part I use 3.5 spells. Pathfinder classes get whatever's on their spell list either way. If there's a conflict between a 3.5 spell and a Pathfinder spell, the 3.5 spell wins. Additional Pathfinder spells are available to other classes upon request. So far the sorcerer is the only person to take advantage of that by picking some random Pathfinder conjuration blast (stone call or something?). It's been cast exactly once because his spell-likes from spheres are usually better.

The one exception for 3.5 > Pathfinder is detect magic/identify, which now allow Spellcraft checks to ID magic items and no material component for identify. I'm not 100% certain I'd do that going forward, but I thought it was a good fit for this campaign.

The last time I ran a Tome game, which was a while ago, the party was a Tome Assassin, a ThunderGod Cid Ranger, a Koumei Gadgeteer, a Koumei Warmage, and a Hicks Dread Necromancer. Most of the players were new to D&D, so I think I helped them pick out classes that matched what they wanted to be able to do. I think I had a list of mostly-Tome feats they could choose from; I don't remember how much time I had to assist them in feat choice. I don't think I used scaling armor; what magic items I included were mostly based on the Tome of Gears fragments.

The game lasted four or so real-life months, and I think everyone leveled up two or three times (ending at level 7 or 8). Everyone was more or less capable of contributing equally, with the exception of the Assassin. This was my fault. When I helped people make their characters, I didn't fully appreciate how much the Assassin required player rules-fu to compete. Despite that, everyone really enjoyed the game. It was probably the best campaign I ran with that group.

rampaging-poet wrote:The one exception for 3.5 > Pathfinder is detect magic/identify, which now allow Spellcraft checks to ID magic items and no material component for identify. I'm not 100% certain I'd do that going forward, but I thought it was a good fit for this campaign.

Technically, 3.5 Detect Magic allows spellcraft checks to identify items, but it's secret rules written in the Magic Item Compendium.

Blicero wrote:The game lasted four or so real-life months, and I think everyone leveled up two or three times (ending at level 7 or 8). Everyone was more or less capable of contributing equally, with the exception of the Assassin. This was my fault. When I helped people make their characters, I didn't fully appreciate how much the Assassin required player rules-fu to compete. Despite that, everyone really enjoyed the game. It was probably the best campaign I ran with that group.

What rules-fu does the assassin need to compete?

VladtheLad wrote: What rules-fu does the assassin need to compete?

Ideally, you need some way of activating death attack in a single round. You also need to be willing to dumpster dive for useful spells. Otherwise, you're likely to feel a bit small in the pants.

Tome content is susceptible to powercreep just like everything. Tome of Fiends and Dungeonomicon content is generally weaker than Races of War stuff, and a lot of the forum classes here are written at a Races of War level or higher.

The fiddliest part of TOME for me is equipment lists. It's cool but I feel the character classes I like already have interesting complexity to not add more +X and activated abilities.

Blicero wrote: Tome content is susceptible to powercreep just like everything. Tome of Fiends and Dungeonomicon content is generally weaker than Races of War stuff, and a lot of the forum classes here are written at a Races of War level or higher.

It's hilarious how at start tome material's main theme was "noncasters need nicer things to keep up with noncasters" until at some point it became "casters need even nicer things to keep up with tome noncasters", including super scaling feats for mages and whatnot.

maglag wrote:

Blicero wrote: Tome content is susceptible to powercreep just like everything. Tome of Fiends and Dungeonomicon content is generally weaker than Races of War stuff, and a lot of the forum classes here are written at a Races of War level or higher.

It's hilarious how at start tome material's main theme was "noncasters need nicer things to keep up with noncasters" until at some point it became "casters need even nicer things to keep up with tome noncasters", including super scaling feats for mages and whatnot.

I think removing scaling feats makes things workable. Then if you compare tome barbarian, samurai and monk with full casters using poweful stuff (but not broken or filthy) from 3.5 sourcebooks things balance out pretty okayish.

I can see scaling feats being left as is if you make what level/BAB a feat is gained determine what abilities said feat slot unlocks.

So using your lvl1 slot for Combat Style gives you +2 to hit, but you'll have to move Combat Style from your lvl1 slot to your lvl6 feat slot to gain the dazing attacks.

Then the lvl1 slot is retrained to some other feat, maybe something utility oriented.

OgreBattle wrote:I can see scaling feats being left as is if you make what level/BAB a feat is gained determine what abilities said feat slot unlocks.

So using your lvl1 slot for Combat Style gives you +2 to hit, but you'll have to move Combat Style from your lvl1 slot to your lvl6 feat slot to gain the dazing attacks.

Then the lvl1 slot is retrained to some other feat, maybe something utility oriented.

That seems really complicated to track. At that point, why not just grant a feat per level, break them all up into five feats each with the prerequisite being when the ability comes online? I guess you'd have to name all these new feats...

RobbyPants wrote:

OgreBattle wrote:I can see scaling feats being left as is if you make what level/BAB a feat is gained determine what abilities said feat slot unlocks.

So using your lvl1 slot for Combat Style gives you +2 to hit, but you'll have to move Combat Style from your lvl1 slot to your lvl6 feat slot to gain the dazing attacks.

Then the lvl1 slot is retrained to some other feat, maybe something utility oriented.

That seems really complicated to track. At that point, why not just grant a feat per level, break them all up into five feats each with the prerequisite being when the ability comes online? I guess you'd have to name all these new feats...

I think the original intention of scaling feats was so warriors could just use 1 feat slot for their "I fight with a sword in each hand" thing, instead of burning every feat slot they had on it.

If the 1 scaling combat feat is broken into 6 feats, then that's +5 slots used up. Adding more feat slots is a solution but then you have slots that could be filled by non Tome Combat feats and perhaps open to abuse or very fiddly.

OgreBattle wrote:

RobbyPants wrote:

OgreBattle wrote:I can see scaling feats being left as is if you make what level/BAB a feat is gained determine what abilities said feat slot unlocks.

So using your lvl1 slot for Combat Style gives you +2 to hit, but you'll have to move Combat Style from your lvl1 slot to your lvl6 feat slot to gain the dazing attacks.

Then the lvl1 slot is retrained to some other feat, maybe something utility oriented.

That seems really complicated to track. At that point, why not just grant a feat per level, break them all up into five feats each with the prerequisite being when the ability comes online? I guess you'd have to name all these new feats...

I think the original intention of scaling feats was so warriors could just use 1 feat slot for their "I fight with a sword in each hand" thing, instead of burning every feat slot they had on it.

If the 1 scaling combat feat is broken into 6 feats, then that's +5 slots used up. Adding more feat slots is a solution but then you have slots that could be filled by non Tome Combat feats and perhaps open to abuse or very fiddly.

Adding more feats is the solution advocated by the people who came up with the concept of Scaling Feats in the first place a decade ago.

RobbyPants wrote:

OgreBattle wrote:I can see scaling feats being left as is if you make what level/BAB a feat is gained determine what abilities said feat slot unlocks.

So using your lvl1 slot for Combat Style gives you +2 to hit, but you'll have to move Combat Style from your lvl1 slot to your lvl6 feat slot to gain the dazing attacks.

Then the lvl1 slot is retrained to some other feat, maybe something utility oriented.

That seems really complicated to track. At that point, why not just grant a feat per level, break them all up into five feats each with the prerequisite being when the ability comes online? I guess you'd have to name all these new feats...

The problem with just breaking up existing Tome Feats into 5 parts is that a lot of them were designed knowing you had to take them as a package - so there are often a few dud abilities or ones that only really synergise with other abilities granted in the same feat. On the flip side, sometimes there is a stand-out ability that the feat was based around and being able to cherry pick that one for a single level feat would be kind of absurd.

You could design new feats based around the 1/level paradigm but the quick'n'easy fix of breaking up existing Tome feats doesn't really work.