Explain template/shapechange/POA stacking for me, please.

[Lago_AM3P]

Okay, I want this broken down as simple as possible, with no assumptions made anywhere. I am going to try to convince people that all of this is legal, and thus wizards are the king pimps of basic 3.5E.

- Normally, artifacts are not allowed as part of min-max builds, since they're DM specific. However, the staff of the magi remains the only artifact where there is actually a mechanic to get it into your game (via a wish spell, then dealing with the consequences). Would you allow it as part of a build? Also--does the 3.5E rule of improving items apply to items with charges? Like can I pay money to add extra spells to artifact staves and shit?

- I'm trying to understand polymorph any object stacking, but I really can't. As far as I understand, you can use multiple iterations of this spell to snag up all of the extraordinary abilities in the book, and if you have a trusted assistant. What things do you get when you keep this spell, and what limitations does this spell have that are not subject to that of shapechange and such?

- As for shapechange... can you really turn into a paragon / demilich / lich / any template that does not add HD version of a monster you want? The 3.5E FAQ is also said to state that your abilities is re-calculated according to the creature's HD--such as a monster's poison ability. If this is true, any way you can think of to abuse this?

-In your opinion, what are awesome monsters to shapechange/POA yourself into that are from the core or epic handbook? I personally remember the choker, the tendrilicous (by taking a month off, he can have almost infinite constitution points), and the will o' wisp, but there's probably doubtless more...


Thanks ahead of time.

[User3]

The REAL abuse of shapechange/poly/wildshape stacking came into fruition upon Skip's posting of the Rules of the Game supplement that focused on Polymorphing. Located
[counturl=6]here.[/counturl]

This 4 part article kinda shocked and surprised everyone on how poly/wild/shapechange worked, since it did not jive with the 3.5 PHB.

And just to note Lago, you forgot in the title of your post ... "wildshape". Because wildshape stacking is just as important and abuseable with polymorph inheritance. Lending credence to the fact that Druids kick Wizards ass in this whole character concept.

[Username17]

Templates: Skip says no to templates on Polymorph, but the book says yes. That is, Skip Williams says:

The subject cannot take the form of any creature with a template, just as with the alter self spell.

Problem is, Polymorph doesn't actually say that. I can't give you a quote here, because there isn't one. So if you buy this whole Skip Williams article, you can't use Polymorph to turn into a templatted form. Even using Wildshape is pretty sketchy, because Skip Williams doesn't give any slack back to Wildshape after giving this very odd pronouncement:

This class feature works like the polymorph spell, except that wildshape is a supernatural ability that works only for the druid using it. It cannot be shared with the druid's animal companion (or other creature with the share spells quality) because it's a supernatural ability.

This is a pretty vague statement, and if we considered that to be the whole of the rule, Druids would be capped at 15 HD. We have an FAQ answer and the ability text to tell us that they are not capped, and the ability itself has no template restriction, but then - neither does the Polymorph spell.

But you can still use Shapechange or PAO to turn into a templatted form:

A general purpose spell, polymorph any object is similar to both polymorph and baleful polymorph. It works on any creature or object, and it can turn the subject into any other creature or object (but not an incorporeal or gaseous creature or object).
...
Because this spell can allow the subject to assume unliving forms, you can use this spell to turn the subject into a construct or undead creature.

Shapechange

This spell represents the ultimate polymorph effect. It works much like polymorph, except as follows:
...
You can choose any form except that of a unique creature.

Those are cut and dried.

----

Form Stacking:

The rules as presented in the 3rd edition led us to believe that if you transformed from one creature into another, it was as if you had never been the intermediate form at all (except for some really odd things involved in Con alterations that could leave you with the hit points of the intermediate form's Con score until your Con changed again). The 3.5 books would have us believe pretty nearly the same thing, except that there are some exciting things you can do with the fact that Shapechange explicitly maks you keep any abilities you had when you shapechanged, thereby allowing you to stack one Polymorph, one Alterself, one PAO, and one Shapechange together, causing you to gain your own body and pocket some huge ability scores and some sweet special abilities.

But Skip's article states rather explicitly that you gain all kinds of crazy crap when you go through multiple changes.

Feat Accumulation:

In most cases, racial skill bonuses depend on your body and your mind. So, you get to keep your own racial skill bonuses and feats while gaining those of your assumed form.

The conclusion does not actually follow from the premise, but that is what it says. You just plain get all the feats and put them in a big pile and dance on it. What are those feats? For starters, it's every feat on any creature that has a little "b" scripted onto it. But according to Skip, it's also:

-- Proficient with the form's natural weapons. If generally humanoid in form, proficient with all simple weapons and any weapon the form is described as using.

-- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) the form is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Aberrations not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Aberrations are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.

---

Ability Accumulation:

Ability accumulation is a lot harder, since Skip states unambiguously for Alter Self:

You retain all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels.
...
You lose extraordinary special attacks and qualities not derived from class levels.

And in general:

Changing form often strips the recipient of some extraordinary abilities, but grants some extraordinary abilities that the assumed form has. In general, when you assume a new form, you lose any extraordinary special attacks and special qualities you have unless you get them from a character class. You usually gain any extraordinary special attacks your assumed form has, but not the assumed form's extraordinary special qualities.

When a supernatural ability depends on part of your body that your assumed form does not have, such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack, you lose that supernatural ability when in the assumed form.

Wait a minute, did you catch that? If you for some reason manage to shapechange a bunch of times, you get to stack all the supernatural abilities together. All the extraordinary abilities together as well, since that spell explicitly says that you keep al your Ex abilities. Good times.

Weird Bullshit

But it isn't all just crazy crap that makes no sense and is extremely abusable, some of it's just stupid. According to Skip, smell is not a sense:

and the presence or absence of the five basic senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, pain).

That actually matters, since the five basic senses are defined as Natural Abilities, so the fact that smell is not one of the five basic senses means that you don't pick up scent when you transform into an Owlbear. Stupid but true.

----

Which brings us to Natural Abilties, one of the most subtle and abusable categories.

Natural Ability: This term is a catch-all for just about anything a creature can do (or characteristic that it has) that is not extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural.
...
When polymorphing, you generally lose your own natural abilities and gain those of your assumed form.

Do you know the ability that's most amusing with that defintion? Why, it's:

Spells: An abeil queen can cast divine spells as a 16th level druid (spells/day 6/7/6/6/5/5/3/3/; save DC 15 + spell level).

It's a special attack, so it is definitionally an ability. But I don't see an Ex, Sp, or Su tag on it.

The Marilith's "natural ability" to attack with all six arms at no penalty is pretty good too.

---

Shapechange and Hit Dice

The FAQ came out with a very bonehead answer recently in which it stated that only creature Hit Dice count for the save DCs of creature abilities (never mind that that is explicitly not how it works), and that Shapechange (not other polymorphing spells, just Shapechange) reset your Hit Dice to the normal Hit Dice of the creature.

But... It specifically doesn't change your hit dice for the purposes of statistics derived from your Hit Dice. And Save DCs is, in fact, a statistic derived from your hit dice. However, Save DCs is given as an example of one of the things that is affected by this, despite the fact that it is in the category that is exempt from dealing with this shit.

Why did this happen? Andy Collins is trying to retroacively turn monster hit dice into class levels for the purposes of all kinds of stuff - not the least being the determination of save DCs. However, since there are a lo of rules which explicitly don't say that, he's bending all kinds of crap out of shape to try to make it all fit. Remember, according to his first bone-head answer that only creature hit dice count for the purposes of save DCs, every ability you picked up from shapeshifting would definitionally have a Save DC of 10 + Ability Mod - and according to the FAQ, that's exactly what happens when you merely polymorph into a scorpion. The Poison DC is like 12, unless you also had a Shapechange layered in there, in which case the Poison DC would be normal.

How do you abuse it? I'm glad you asked. You only count your "creature" Hit Dice for determining save DCs and caster levels and shit. Furthermore, your hit dice are reset to the Hit Dice of the top form for this purpose if you have Shapechange running.

So here's the order:

Step One: Shapechange into something with a Save-or-Die power. It could be a Medusa. Whatever, I don't care.

Step Two: Polymorph Any Object into something with a crap tonne of hit dice. I suggest a Primal Elemental, but do what you gotta do.

Step Three: Use that killer Supernatural Ability with 96+ virtual Hit Dice, picking up a cool save DC of 58 + abilty mod.

-Username17

[User3]

One counter-argument to Frank's interpretation is this little rule:

One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.

If your are using Skip's "assumed form" termininology, then someone can make an argument that later assumed forms render the previous ones irrelevant since the you are no longer assuming those former forms because of the later spells.

Now, whether your friends are clever enough to make that argument is up to debate. The fact that the rules don't explicitly state that you can't simultaneously assume the forms of multiple different creatures at once is a real flaw in the shapechanging rules (though it might seem obvious to some).

Chock it up to other bad ideas like the foolish idea that HD and CR can be different and still have a HD-based power mechanic work, or that "glass jaw and laser beams" monsters can even pretend to be balanced.

[Lago_AM3P]

Frank, if you cast PAO to change yourself into a Primal Elemental, and then shapechanged into a Rakasha or something silly, would you have a base caster level of 98?

---

K, if that train of logic worked, then you couldn't permanently change yourself into something crazy like an ancient gold wyrm dragon by changing yourself into an ancient gold wyrm dragon for a few rounds than casting a second spell and turning into an ancient gold wyrm dragon permanently with POA.

Form-changing spells probably do stack because there is language in the crappy alter self and polymorph spells that will make the previous castings irrelevent. POA and shapechange do not have this.

[User3]

K, if that train of logic worked, then you couldn't permanently change yourself into something crazy like an ancient gold wyrm dragon by changing yourself into an ancient gold wyrm dragon for a few rounds than casting a second spell and turning into an ancient gold wyrm dragon permanently with POA.

Right. The above rules I quoted basically say that you can't do that.

There are counter-arguments, some of which are valid, but this is the argument that deflates a lot of the craziness. Its a strong position, and only an argument at all because of poorly written Polymorph rules.

[Username17]

No. That isn't what they say at all.

Skip Williams probably thinks that it says that it keeps you from layering Polymorphs to collect feats and superpowers. It doesn't, of course, because the specific overrides the general, and therefore the text of the form changing that states that you keep abilities overrides a general rule that the original reason you were keeping the ability no longer applies.

That is, keeping the abilities granted by the old new form is actually written as a specific effect of assuming the new new form - which is almost certainly not what Skip Williams and Andy Collins were trying to say.

---

But in no way does this ever have any bearing whatsoever on the duration of Polymorph Any Object.

There are exactly two times that PAO might be considered to check your intelligence for the purpose of deteriming duration - before t takes effect or after. Those are really truly the only possibilities.

If you PAO into a Dragon and set your Intelligence to 34, your Intelligence is in fact and in truth - 34. If you then cast PAO again to turn into... a dragon, there are exactly two times it could check your intelligence for comparison to the duration chart, and again that's either before or after the new PAO takes effect.

If it checks before it takes effect, your Intelligence is 34, and the duration is permanent. If it checks afterwards, then your intelligence is 34 again (for a different but essentially indistinguishable reason), and the duration would be permanent.

You could rule it either way, but if you think it checks after it takes effect - namely at the point where the old polymorph effect has been rendered irrelevent - then PAO will always be permanent, because all of the check boxes will by definition match the new form because you will have physically transformed into the new form.

If you rule that it checks before hand, as I think you'd better, then the old Polymorph effect is not yet irrelevent, and double tapping PAO makes it permanent every time.

---

Those are the only choices: either Polymorph Any Object is permanent on every casting, or it is permanent any time you feel like casting it twice on the same subject. There is no option three.

-Username17

[User3]

There are exactly two times that PAO might be considered to check your intelligence for the purpose of deteriming duration - before t takes effect or after. Those are really truly the only possibilities.

There is no reason to assume that. One can easily asume that the Polymoprh effect can be cast, render the previous effect irrelevant, then base its effects off of whatever base traits remain. Only the fact that it doesn't explicitly say that creates an argument.

It doesn't, of course, because the specific overrides the general, and therefore the text of the form changing that states that you keep abilities overrides a general rule that the original reason you were keeping the ability no longer applies.

When a previous spell has been rendered irrelevant by a new effect, why would you keep any abilties granted by that spell?
If you allowed that kind of crazy logic, someone could cast a Polymoprh, then cast a new permanent Polymorph to "seal" your form and keep the previous Polymorph's Su abilies simply because its says "hey man, you get to keep your previous Su abilities in your new form and since the spell only checks once and does not need to retain its initial criteria I win fvckers!!!!!"

i believe that spells require you to always meet the criteria for them to work. Exclusionary clauses allow for things like Animate Object to be cast on objects and make them creatures(eve though on would assume that the spell could not continue to work since it can only be cast on objects), because the spell specifically creates an exclusion for that result. By the same token, changing forms multiple times with Polymorph effects does not allow massive Su ability accumulation.

---------------

The funny thing is that the "keep Su abilities" works to let monsters keep their stuff when they Polymorph, since their original form is not a magical effect that would be render irrelevant by another magical effect, unlike someone under a Polymorph effect.

[Lago_AM3P]

i believe that spells require you to always meet the criteria for them to work. Exclusionary clauses allow for things like Animate Object to be cast on objects and make them creatures(eve though on would assume that the spell could not continue to work since it can only be cast on objects), because the spell specifically creates an exclusion for that result. By the same token, changing forms multiple times with Polymorph effects does not allow massive Su ability accumulation.

Uh, what?

You imbue inanimate objects with mobility and a semblance of life. Each such animated object then immediately attacks whomever or whatever you initially designate.
An animated object can be of any nonmagical material. You may animate one Small or smaller object or an equivalent number of larger objects per caster level. A Medium object counts as two Small or smaller objects, a Large object as four, a Huge object as eight, a Gargantuan object as sixteen, and a Colossal object as thirty-two. You can change the designated target or targets as a move action, as if directing an active spell.
This spell cannot animate objects carried or worn by a creature.

I have no clue what you're talking about. Literally, the logic of animate objects works exactly the same way as the logic of POA stacking.

[User3]

Ok, most people use Animate Objects as the example of a rules interpreation that says that: "a spell only has to meet its initial casting criteria for it to work, and all effects are based on only the initial criteria." In Animate Objecs, they say that the spell works on this logic because while the spell turns the target into an invalid target, can can do so because of the above argument. Extending that logic to PAO, you get the above stated stacking where casting it twice makes it permanent.

Now thats a valid interpretion. Its wrong, but i can see how a lot of people see it that way.

Now, DnD works on a basis of exceptions. Combat Reflexes is the exception to the "one AoO per round." rule, for example. A more specific rule creates an exception to a general rule.

Spells are also exceptions. In Animate object, the effect of the spell is an exception to the general rule of "targets must meet the targetting conditions of the spell." If the effect text of the spell creates the exception to the general rules of spellcasting, then they take priority. Thats why the Feather Fall spell can be cast out of the caster's turn. The specific effect overrides the general spell rules.

The specific rules of the Polymorph effects do not create exceptions to the "one effect renders another irrelevant" rule. Now, one can make an argument that the exception text about "retaining Su abilities and feats" in Plymoprh means that you can cast Shapechange and other shapechanging spells and keep them all, that text does not directly conflict with the "one effect renders another irrelevant" text.

An argument can be made for it, however, and w've seen it convince may people. There are wrong, but it won't stop them from making their case until explicit text comes out that says that.

[MrWaeseL]

So let me get this straight:

I POA into a Gold Dragon, getting a high int (IIRC 32).
I Then POA into a devastation beetle. I now have 128 virtual HD.
I shapechange into whatever suits my fancy, getting a 74+ability mod on special attacks.

Right?
That's just what I needed for my blue mage.

[Username17]

No. I won't even get into K's opinion about exclusionary clauses, because he's explained it to me in person and it doesn't make any sense. I'll just hold up his own explanation about how it's supposed to work in order to show that it doesn't work.

Here's my favorite example: Animal Growth. You cast it on an Animal of Gartuan or smaller size, and it grows own size category. It could say that it can be cast on any animal and that it can't make the animal grow to larger than Colossal, but it doesn't. It says that it can only effect an animal of Gargantuan or smaller size. It can't effect an animal of Colossal size. If it is cast on a Gargantuan creature, it turns Colossal.

That would make it into a creature that it can't effect, and that doesn't mean shit because spells only check for legitimacy when they are cast, not afterwards.

---

But that doesn't mean that you can PAO into a devastation beetle and then turn into another creature and walk off with abilities with DCs in the mid 80s.

You have to Shapechange into something with a cool ability and then PAO into a Devastation Beetle. Your virtual hit dice, like your natural weapons, are one of those things that only count from your top form.

Remember, casting the new spell makes the old forms irrelevent. So unless you have specific text that lets you keep something from an intermediate form (as you do with mental stats, bonus feats, and special abilities not based on body parts), you lose it by default. That includes virtual hit dice.

Virtual Hit Dice don't even exist in the rules, they only exist in Andy's FAQ answer. As such, there are no rules at all about keeping or losing them. And if there's no rule about it specifically, you go to the general rule - which is that you don't have it anymore once you assume a new form.

-Username17

[User3]

Here is my point in the most simple terms:

Spells have targetting conditions. Exceptions to those conditions are included in the effect text. The spell's own effect is an exception to its targetting conditions. Thats how Animal Growth and Animate Objects can have effects that change the target into something that the initial targetting conditions (without the exception provided by the text) won't allow.

Spells always have to meet their conditions or their exception conditions included in the text. When they don't do that do to some other effect, usually the initial spell stops working because of the "one effects makes another irrelevant" rule.

In the case of PAO stacking, the fact that previous assumed forms are rendered irrelevant by new forms assumed is why it doesn't work.

[Username17]

Right, I understand your idea, it's just stupid.

For example, let's say you cast Animate Object, and then cast Polymorph Any Object to transform the animated object into a beaver. Your claim is that the Animate Object would then end, because now there's a second spell effect that makes it a creature. That's stupid. It would cause all kinds of problematic crap for no good reason.

There is no special rule anywhere that spells are specifically immune to their own texts. There is a rule that a spell has to have a legal target to take effect. Nothing more, nothing less.

At no time has there ever been a rule that spells had to continuously check for legality. The fact that there are (lots of) spells that would make themselves illegal, the fact that there are lots of listed spell combos that would make themselves illegal, these aren't some tenuous pointers that maybe it works this way. No, the rules explicitly say as much, and these facts are simply an iron fist that demonstrates that it is absolutely impossible for things to work any other way.

When you cast a spell, the effects take effect. They are not simultaneous operating and not-operating so that you can check to see whether it would have been a legal target. Spells are on or they are off. There is no option three.

-Username17

[User3]

For example, let's say you cast Animate Object, and then cast Polymorph Any Object to transform the animated object into a beaver. Your claim is that the Animate Object would then end, because now there's a second spell effect that makes it a creature. That's stupid. It would cause all kinds of problematic crap for no good reason.

There is no special rule anywhere that spells are specifically immune to their own texts. There is a rule that a spell has to have a legal target to take effect. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mmm, wrong.

The "combining magical effects section" pretty neatly explains how it it all works. Check this text:

COMBINING MAGICAL EFFECTS
Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:

The bolded text pretty much deflates the whole "and now I cast Animate Objects to get a longer duration on my PAO when I turn my pants into a Succubus" idea.

In your example, the Animate Object is rendered irrelevant while it a beaver. It still exists and everything for the purposes of duration and whether you can Dispel it, but it is not functioning since its been rendered irrelevant.

----------------------------------

The below text also kills the idea of PAO stacking:

Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

-------------------------------

But even if it didn't, this would ax the while shapechanging fiasco:

One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.

------------------------------

That's stupid. It would cause all kinds of problematic crap for no good reason.

Like what? Seems like it clears up a bunch of abusive crap.

[Username17]

Mmm, wrong.

The "combining magical effects section" pretty neatly explains how it it all works.

Yes it does. Which is why I am right and you are wrong. Your entire "spells keep checking to see if they are still legal" tirade is completely contradicted by the text you just quoted.

I see what you are trying to do. You are trying to pretend that there aren't any rules, that everything works off of hand-waving, and that by extension everything is a DM judgement call. If that were true, we could get rid of many of the specific problems of the D&D rules-set by having a sufficiently coherent DM come in and wave a magic wand. Of course, we could also have DMs come in and go on about how your clever Dimension Door tricks don't work because he doesn't remember whether the Ethereal Plane connects to the elemental plane of Earth.

But that's not how D&D is written. It really is written like a computer program. The number of judgement calls available are vanishingly small, and while DMs can certainly walk in and change anything, this discussion is about what the rules actually say.

And the rules actually say that you can cast animal growth on a colossal animal because it doesn't matter if the animal is colossal or not once the spell has taken effect. Not for some kind of voodoo about implied allowances based on the fact that the spell makes things larger.

-Username17

[User3]

The rules on combining magical effects are quite clear. Until you've got an argument better than "I'm obviously right," then expect to be ignored.

Quote some text. Make an argument. Show some proof.

The rules quoted above clearly show that previous spell's effects don't affect later spells, so no Polymorphing into an Animal and Awakening, no PAO stacking for better durations, and no Animating things to get better PAOs.

The rules on irrelevancy also clearly show that a previous spell's effects can be negated ("made irrelevant"), by later effects, clearly meaning that spells must continue to meet any intital criteria for them to function.

The fact that a spell's effect text is an exception to its own targetting conditions...well, that just seems obvious to me. A single spell is not "combining effects" with itself; therefore a spell does not check against its own effect (ie. does not use the "combining magical effects" rules).

---------------------

Until you stop making personal attacks and start responding to the content with actual arguments with actual proof, I don't think I have to respond any more. When I've got a reasoned argument and supporting proof and you only have an opinion....that means I win.

[User3]

1104184753[/unixtime]]
Until you've got an argument better than "I'm obviously right," then expect to be ignored.

The fact that a spell's effect text is an exception to its own targetting conditions...well, that just seems obvious to me.

I mean no offense in saying that these two sentences don't go together.

I interpret the 'Combining Magical Effects' text to essentially mean that the condition of being under the effect of one spell does not affect the mechanical workings of another. Which is to say -- if you are under the effects of Hold Person and are suddenly hit by Reverse Gravity -- the mechanics of Reverse Gravity do not work differently because you're paralyzed; you fall upwards, just as you normally would. It does not mean that the effects of one spell are irrelevant to the other; consider the case of Protection from Fire cast on someone who is then made the target of a Fireball. If we are to interpret spell interaction in the way you appear to be specifying, the target then takes full damage from the Fireball, because "one spell does not affect the way another spell operates".

Interpreting this text on a purely mechanical level, such that the Fireball operates normally -- by which I mean, the caster rolls Xd6 and applies this as fire damage to the targets, which is then reduced because of the effect of Protection from Fire -- appears more sane. If I had a book or two here, I'd see if there are any examples in the text that support one mode or another of spell combination.

--d.

--d.

[User3]

COMBINING MAGICAL EFFECTS
Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:

Check the bolded text. While Protection from Fire doesn't explicitly say that it has a specific effect for Fireballs, it does say that it has a specific effect on any fire-damage effect (Fireball being a representative member of that set). Therefore, Protection from Fire "explains its effect" on fire damage effects.

Thats my reading.

[Username17]

The rules quoted above clearly show that previous spell's effects don't affect later spells, so no Polymorphing into an Animal and Awakening, no PAO stacking for better durations, and no Animating things to get better PAOs.

Are you high? That text just says that the presence or absence of spells does not affect whether or not a spell goes off or not. It doesn't say that the effects caused by the spells don't change how spells go off.

If you reduce person your sorry ass, gust of wind throws you around more. If you polymorph into an outsider you are susceptible to anti-outsider spells. If you have three spell effects on you already, putting a fourth one on doesn't squeeze any out because of some three's a crowd rule because there isn't one.

In short, you've elaborately quoted exactly the text that says that you are 100% wrong. Spells don't give a damn whether there are other spells active or not. They can't even tell the difference. And because of that, it doesn't matter whether you are an animal because a spell was cast upon you or because no spell was cast upon you - if you are an animal you are a legal target for Nature's Avatar.

Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect.

So the Polymorph has no relevence to whether a spell is legal or not - which means that the only thing that matters is the current state of your type - which is to say that you are an animal.

That's what that text means. Deal with it.

Unless, of course, that we played your way, in which case people could still be targetted by spells that target creatures after they were killed by death spells.

-Username17

[User3]

Unless, of course, that we played your way, in which case people could still be targetted by spells that target creatures after they were killed by death spells.

If you think that, then you either are unwilling or unable to look at my evidence.

You seem to be purposely misinterpreting my arguments. While thats a valid tactic to sway mob opinion, it doesn't prove anything.

[Username17]

If you think that, then you either are unwilling or unable to look at my evidence.

Your "evidence" has been:

* A disertation about exclusionary clauses. This is incomprehensible. On first, second, third, and fourth appraisal it appears to be so completely wrong that I can't even figure out some part of it that is sufficiently correct to even accept criticism. It's like a Gordion Knott of incomprehensibility.

* A statement that the text that says that spells don't care if other spells are active means that they ignore the effects of active spells. This is flat-out wrong, but at least it's close enough to sense that it can be argued against. The fact that spells don't inherently effect each other means that you can target an animals only spell on a creature that is an animal because of another spell. Not the other way around.

* A statement that the the text saying that another copy of a spell makes an old copy irrelevent supercedes spell text stating that specific abilties are gained, retained, or lost. That's wrong, but it's not important. The spell text supercedes the general text, but it doesn't have to in this case. Shapechange doesn't allow you to keep the extraordinary abilities of the intermediate forms because the general text of irrelevency doesn't apply - it lets you keep them because still having whatever EX abilties the intermediate form granted you is part of the spell text of the top form, the non-irrelevent spell.

---

I've read your arguments. I've looked through your evidence.
You. Are Full. Of Shit.

There are lots of pieces of crazy that your readings would lead us to. It's not important, because your readings are wrong. But sometimes on this very thread you have come out and demanded that we show you some of these "problems". And then we do. We show you problems like "You could still target dead people with creature spells". And then you flip out about how we are purposefully misinterpretting you. We aren't. You're just wrong. It's not some fvcking conspiracy. Polymorph is just fvcked up, and no amount of poring through the books and careful combing of the rules is going to fix it.

3.5 Polymorph really does change your type. And that really is supposed to make you affected by different spells. And that really means that you can Awaken yourself - repeatedly. That's what it means, and it was a problem that was known about all through 3rd edition when it required a 9th level spell and Scribe Scroll to pull it off. There is not some secret rule that allows us to unravel this chicanery and make it not-broken. The best we have is rule zero, but that still doesn't fix the problem, which is that the actual rules are unusable in this instance.

There's nothing more to see here. Polymorph is broken. It's not broken on the "this spell is too powerful" end. It's broken on the absolute structural end. It's broken on the "you can get infinite hit points, money, allies, and stats" end. It's fundamentally created in such a way that a cold hard reading of the words in it make the game crumble into the dust of a thousand generations. I honestly don't know why you are getting defensive about this. The designers aren't genius prophets who hid special rules for you to find to make the game work. The designers are Ed Fvcking Stark who is trying to make Druids be more powerful so that he can make things blow up on the weekends with less effort.

-Username17

[User3]

You still haven't come up with any examples or proof, despite the personal attacks.

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For anyone else following this, here is an example of how the "combining magical effects" rules work:

---Spells that do the same thing(change Type or Size, for example) don't stack with each other, and are cast as if the previous spell didn't exist for targetting conditions and effect. That's why you can't Awaken an person who has the Animal Type because of a Polymorph effect. Both spells change Type, and so the latter spell ignores the former when determining effect and targetting conditions. Other spells that affect Animals that don't change type or grant a new form would affect the same Animal-type guy as an Animal, so a Speak with Animals spell would work on a Druid in Bear form (silly though that may seem).

By the same token, casting a spell twice will not give better results, since the previous spell does not count for the purposes of determining effect. That means that PAO can't be used to leapfrog durations by becoming a lizard, then a giant lizard, then a Dragon, then a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon.

This is the same logic behind the explicit rules for Enlarge that states that castings of Size-changing magic do not stack.

---If two spells do the same thing, the previous spell's effect can be rendered irrelevant by the new affect. This is the reason that Polymorph effects don't stack with castings of other shapeshifting magic, and why the ability inheritance rules on abilities don't allow Polymorph or shapechanging to be cast multiple times for massive abilities gain. The spell is effectively negated during its duration and it has no effect, though its effect would return if the latter spell were dispelled or dismissed.

---Spells that don't do the same things but interact (though using similiar rules like Size or fire damage) do consider each others effects. A Reduce Person spell changes size and a Gust of Wind blows a wind effect, so being smaller because of RP means that you get blown about more(they interact through the Size rules and do fundamentally different things) and Protection from Fire will negate fire damage from a Fireball(they interact through the fire damage rules and do fundamentally different things).

---Previous spells that are instanteous are not considered for the effects of "combining magical effects" since they have no duration. Death spells, for example, are instantaneous spells and are not functioning after they are cast, so they have no effect on later castings of spells. They don't use the combining spell effects rules. The same goes for Fireballs, dispels, and oddly enough.... Flesh to Stone. Casting a Polymorph effect on a person under the effect of a Flesh to Stone would get you a petrified monster(since Polymorh does not negate the petrified condition normally and cannot render an instantaneous effect irrelevant), and not a walking and talking person.

---Individual spells do not use the rules on combining spell effects on themselves, so a spell like Animate Object can change an object into a person, even though the spell doesn't target people and does target objects.

[Username17]

Spells that do the same thing(change Type or Size, for example) don't stack with each other,

Right.

and are cast as if the previous spell didn't exist for targetting conditions and effect.

Wrong. The game can't function that way. You can't ignore the effects of current spells when applying new spells. You get Spell Resistance when people cast another Spell Resistance on you.

The logical leap from "Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates." to "spells go to some sort of unwritten baseline state with no spells active in order to determine what they would do if they were the only spell" is too large. You aren't just taking logical leaps here, you are flying around as Skymaster of Crazytown.

There is no "baseline state" rules. Anywhere. That's just you making shit up. Do you have any concept of how inconsistent you are being with even the minor examples we are throwing you? Polymorph gives you a type. People with a type are affected by spells and effects that affect that type. Protection from Elements gives you Fire Resistance. Fire Resistance makes you take less damage from Fire Attacks. It's the same thing. The results of the spell give you a rules-desgnator and that designator affects how further spells go off. Period.

I can't find any specific text to show how the baseline state rules works, because there are no baseline state rules! Got that? You have completely made up an extremely complicated and unadjudicatable system based on feelings and I will have no part of it. You have nothing.

This is the same logic behind the explicit rules for Enlarge that states that castings of Size-changing magic do not stack.

You mean how growth spells are supposed to behave like a named bonus to your size, or some other way? That's not a point in your favor on this, the very fact that it needs an explicit rule and not a general one covering all of it says that you are probably worng. The fact that there's no actual supporting text in the entire game, of course, says that your theory isn't just weak sauce, it's fake sauce.

Multiple effects that increase size do not stack.

Multiple effects that reduce size do not stack.

....does not mean "spells ignore other size changing spells when cast". Not even close. For one thing, you can stack righteous might and reduce person together. Which would be impossible to even figure out using your "interpretation", but is in fact extremely easy:

* Increase a size category
* Decrease a size category.
* Apply all bonuses from both spells.
* Apply all penalties from both spells.

If two spells do the same thing, the previous spell's effect can be rendered irrelevant by the new affect.

Yes. The thing that makes form stacking work is not some way to get around this in any way. It's that if you are polymorphed into a leopard, and shapechange into an octopus, having Pounce is a property of shapechange. The polymorph is now gone, but the shapechange's text says that you have pounce because you had it just before you became an octopus.

Spells that don't do the same things but interact (though using similiar rules like Size or fire damage) do consider each others effects.

Of course they do. You haven't shown anything ever that shows that any spell under any circumstances doesn't consider the effects of other spells. Spell effects are only distinguishable from things that are naturally like that in an antimagic field.

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The actual rules for combining magical effects are extremely simple.

* Apply one spell effect.
* Apply next spell effect.
- If same named bonus, apply bigger bonus only.
- If same unnamed bonus, apply both bonuses.
- If same non-bonus effect, ignore earlier non-bonus effect.
* Repeat with next

It's just like a computer program. It's really simple. You just do the things you are told to do, in order you are told to them, and you keep doing it until you are done. There is no room for arguments. No room for doubt. And most of the time, it works extremely well. When you cast Reduce Person, and then Righteous Might, and then Bull's Strength, and then Death Knell, and then Stoneskin, it's not some kind of fvcking mystery what happens. You don't say "well, Righteous Might is a spell that changes your size, and it makes you stronger, and it makes you tougher, so it's going to be conflicting with Bull's Strength, Reduce, Death Knell, and Stone Skin" NO! It provides a size bonus to Strength. It increases your size by one category. Reduce Person decreases your size by one category. You get a size bonus and a size penalty to strength. You also get an Enhancement bonus to Strength, and an Unnamed bonus to Strength. All of these add together, because none of them are named bonuses with the same name.

The spell application rules do not require judgement calls. They are not complicated. They don't require or allow people to do Vulcan Mind Melds on them to figure out the "intent" behind the spells. There are no secret categories of spells that are "basically the same". Even if there were, this would not be important to how spells interact.

-Username17

[User3]

The "Combining Magical Effects" section exists. It supports all of my rules interpretations. It requires the DM to make judgment calls on whether spell effects stack. Some spells even have extra reminders in their effects text to tell people that they don't stack.

If that section did not exist, the game would work exactly like you describe.

But the section does exist. It tells you to make judgement calls, and it gives guidelines on how to make them. Its complicated, and frankly I've avoided reading it up until a few days ago. It also fixes 95% of the broken spell combos in the game that people think exist when applied. Its probably the reason why WotC has ignored ranting about broken spell combos.

The logical leap from "Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates." to "spells go to some sort of unwritten baseline state with no spells active in order to determine what they would do if they were the only spell" is too large. You aren't just taking logical leaps here, you are flying around as Skymaster of Crazytown.

Since you have read what I said and are pretending it is something entirely different, I think you get to wear the hat of Skymaster of Crazytown.

How is PAO being able to get a better duration out of a target with another PAO effect on them not a spell affecting the way another spell operates? Really. Tell me how that is not true. You are getting a better duration only because of the other spell's effect. That is affecting how another spell operates on a fundamental level.

And I never said: "spells go to some sort of unwritten baseline state with no spells active in order to determine what they would do if they were the only spell."

I clearly stated that spells that share similiar mechanics(like both spells having effects that touch the fire damage mechanics), but do fundamentally different things(like Protection from Fire and Fireball), do interact with each other.

Your belief that spells only check for validity once and so can stack with other effects in ladder-like spell combos to reach game-breaking unintended results....is a delusion. There is no page number for that rule. No book supports that view. No text.

Pure delusion.

Here's your hat, Skymaster.