The Gaming Den

I was recently invited into an AU game. So I took a good, long look at the game. In some ways its better, but in a lot of others it's worse.

I'm going to start off with a quote from the book. You see, there's a dark spectre haunting this book - GM Fiat.

Giving Power Back to DMs
The core rules of the 3rd editions Player's Handbook were written to be as simple as possible-With very little need or room for DM adjudication. Arcana Unearthed is intended for gamemasters, or DMs, with a little experience, who are fully capable of making judgment calls and sensible rulings. This isn't to say that a careful eye didn't watch over the balance and playability of these rules. But that same careful eye also made sure not to overdefine concepts or regulate them too heavy-handedly. DMs have room to make the game their own.

The Good
-A lot of problematic spells are no longer problems.
-Some of the feats are good(Ex, rapid strike)
-Some of the fighter types have really good abilities that re-define combat.
-Everyone casts off of the same spell list.
-I think his fix of monks is actually almost viable. Emphasis on 'almost', but he gets an A for effort.
-Magic item creation feats are broken up into Craft Charged Item, Craft Constant Item, Craft Single-Use Item, Craft Spell-Completion Item, and Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
-He doesn't believe in LA being at least your HD.

The Bad
-A lot of problematic spells are no longer problems because they have simply been deleted with no effective replacement.
-A lot of spells that weren't problematic are gone. Who does he think he is taking out magic missile and fireball!? Sure, MM sucked and all ... But dude, it's MAGIC MISSILE.
-None of his feats are really new and inspiring as far as I can see.
-He broke compatibility between AU and other d20 systems by screwing around with what changing sizes does. For example, tiny chars retain their 5' reach.
-95% of exotic spells are worthless and will never be taken by anyone. The other 5% are overpowered.
-Craft Constant Item has a minimum level of 12.
-The classes sometimes have interesting flavor, but they pretty much all suck. I declare the Runethane to be weak like katana-wielding pirate.
-He engages in bait and switch tactics, in one breath saying that AU is freer when it comes to multiclassing when in reality it still sucks to take more than two levels of any fighter class. However, caster multiclassing pretty much works - As long as you, you know, don't care about class abilities. Considering that all except two of the casters in the book are bardic casters, class abilities are kind of important.

The Ugly
-The cure series of spells, the summon monster series, and all of the illusions have been nerfed.
-HE NERFED CURE SPELLS. WTF?
-The rogue has been broken up into two different classes.
-He explicitly says that a single 7th level spell is an OK reward for a 20th level character.
-Since when is +2 damage for one weapon a perfectly acceptable 20th level ability.
-He actually managed to make shapechanging WORSE despite there being only a single spell in the book, a 9th level spell, for changing shape. He didn't leave any references to what happens when you change shape, what you keep or what you lose in the description of the abilities for the shapechanging class.
-He fucked up every single fighter build worth using.
-His feats often break some of the cardinal rules of feat design, like "This feat is SO MUCH MORE AWESOME when you take it later rather than sooner".
-Empty levels. Lots of 'em.

I had a lot more, but this pretty much sums it up.

Thoughts on AU from the rest of you? Thoughts on my thoughts?

From what I've read of it, I wasn't too impressed.

It still didn't fix teleportation, and most of the classes just plain suck. Fly is still unfixed, being too powerful fro a 3rd level spell.

Fighters really don't look all that great either in that book.

It still didn't fix teleportation, and most of the classes just plain suck. Fly is still unfixed, being too powerful fro a 3rd level spell.

You'll note that he took your idea of fixing teleport by making it randomly kill the caster.

You make a caster level+int check vs a DC ranging from 0 to 60 whenever you cast teleport, DC depending on how much information you have on the place and how much time you spend thinking about it. If you fail, you roll on a % table. Penalties range from everyone taking 1d10 damage to the caster instantly dying and having their body embedded in some object while the rest of the party takes 10d6 damage each. You automatically fail if where you're going is located somewhere other than where you think, if you don't know where you are, or if it doesn't exist.

Fortunately, there's no auto failure on a one for this check. Which reminds me - Autofailure of saves on a one is in.

Randomly killing the caster is a bad idea. Randomly making him vulnerable, by knocking him out, can work.

I never suggested consequences that would outright kill him without aid from the environment.

And I don't like the idea of having a check to do it beacuse eventually you'll be able to make any check. If you're going to have a dramatic failure chance, it should be a static chance. If you can ever make it go away then your balance for the spell dissolves entirely.

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1108524827[/unixtime]]Randomly killing the caster is a bad idea. Randomly making him vulnerable, by knocking him out, can work.

Considering the tactic you are trying to limit, "knocking him out" is killing him.

Neeek at [unixtime wrote:1108525120[/unixtime]]

Considering the tactic you are trying to limit, "knocking him out" is killing him.

True it is. But that's simply beacuse I don't want people teleporting and assassinating people at all, but I'd like people to still be able to teleport places.

I know it's an unpopular position 'round these parts, but I don't really think encouraging GM fiat is such a bad idea. It is true that knowing that the GM will fix any holes or problems is no excuse at all for writing bad rules, it's better to not have the problem in the first place and not require a GM's intervention. That being said, the fact that there are incompetant GMs out there is no excuse to treat all GMs as incompetant, any more than the fact that some players are disruptive rules-lawyers is a valid reason to treat all players as disruptive rules-lawyers. In practice, most GMs are not bad, and most bad GMs either grow up or have a short tenure.

-Desdan

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1108525359[/unixtime]]

Neeek at [unixtime wrote:1108525120[/unixtime]]

Considering the tactic you are trying to limit, "knocking him out" is killing him.

True it is. But that's simply beacuse I don't want people teleporting and assassinating people at all, but I'd like people to still be able to teleport places.

I agree. I think that it's alot more fair all around if you have to teleport into an unoccupied room down the hall in order to make sure that you aren't captured as a side effect of your spell. It makes unannounced ambushes trickier, but not impossible.

-Desdan

Source material demands that Malefescent be allowed to appear in a gout of green flame in the middle of the King's Throne Room, give her mad speech of evil, and subsequently vanish in nother puff of green fire when the guards descend upon her.

Note, however, that the vanishing and the appearing don't have to be the same spell - you can have a "Teleport into other peoples' homes" spell and a "word of recall" spell separately.

And that doesn't have to be unbalanced. If the green flame announces your coming for a few rounds, and getting a few rounds warning is more than long enough to get your standard issue combat shit together, that's fine. If your instantaneous teleport can only take you back to your sick bed so that you can lick wounds - that's OK too.

Telling the party "Don't use tactics I disapprove of, or you might randomly die for no reason" isn't game balance - it's just bullshit.

-Username17

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1108529608[/unixtime]]Source material demands that Malefescent be allowed to appear in a gout of green flame in the middle of the King's Throne Room, give her mad speech of evil, and subsequently vanish in nother puff of green fire when the guards descend upon her.

Note, however, that the vanishing and the appearing don't have to be the same spell - you can have a "Teleport into other peoples' homes" spell and a "word of recall" spell separately.

And that doesn't have to be unbalanced. If the green flame announces your coming for a few rounds, and getting a few rounds warning is more than long enough to get your standard issue combat shit together, that's fine. If your instantaneous teleport can only take you back to your sick bed so that you can lick wounds - that's OK too.

Granted, but I'd also like to point out that the source material demands many things that players don't tend to go along with; I.E. the BBEG appearing before the party in the flesh to gloat about his latest scheme and then retreating to his headquarters with the party not doing anything either period, or until the BBEG is leaving anyway. In any game, Malefescent would be peppered with arrows and spells right before getting dogpiled by the party's melee monkies. Now, wether this matters or not depends on how powerful Malefescent is and how powerful the party is, but either way, Malefescent's little speech has been spoiled.

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1108529608[/unixtime]]
Telling the party "Don't use tactics I disapprove of, or you might randomly die for no reason" isn't game balance - it's just bullshit.

Oh, come on, Frank. Long as the party knows well in advance that you stand a decent chance of appearing on the other end dazed or unconcious, casting it to appear in the King's Throne Room is no different than charging a monster with rediculous melee abilites but little or no defense against an air attack. Hell, it's better since the party likely has no way of knowing that the mauling brawler shouldn't be attacked at close quarters.

-Desdan

No it isn't. It's offering the PCs the "Double or Nothing" option. You are going up to them and saying:

Asshole DM wrote:Or.... you could bet it all and virtually guaranty killing the dreadlord - or all die in a single roll right now.

That's shit. If the teleport ambush makes you win if it works - and makes you die if it fails, that might seem like a pretty good deal compared to taking on the darklord in some sort of fair contest.

It's like a Death From Above in Battletech. Sometimes it's the best tactic in your situation, but it's always kind of climactic. And that's not a good thing for an ongoing game. If the game is supposed to end anyway, then betting everything on one last die roll is fine - either way. But if the game is supposed to keep going, then it's not fine. Either way.

-Username17

I really don't feel like getting into the whole teleport argument again. We've already been through that to death already. Lets keep this thread somewhat on topic.

Yes I realize you don't like my fix to teleport, and if you really wnat to discuss it, I'd be willing to in another thread (I guess), though to be honest I'm not really too interested in doing that. Because it's a topic that's already been beat to death.

Are they stating at the start of the book "This book is based on the Oberoni fallacy"?

In my campaign teleport has a 3 round casting time and is visible and audible (and easily recognizable even without spellcraft) on both the point of casting and appearance.

Desdan wrote: In any game, Malefescent would be peppered with arrows and spells right before getting dogpiled by the party's melee monkies. Now, wether this matters or not depends on how powerful Malefescent is and how powerful the party is, but either way, Malefescent's little speech has been spoiled.

I hope not. In the movie, the court didn't recognize that Maleficent had malicious intentions. They may have suspected, but the way she presented herself was not as a villain, but as a woman who'd been slighted because of a lack of invitation to Aurora's christening. It wasn't until Maleficent made her pronouncement that people realized they were screwed.

And that's the way it should be. If the BBEG takes pleasure in personally pestering the party, it shouldn't be with a target painted on their face. That's uncreative and retarded.

That works for Sleeping Beauty, but many of my adventures involve a BBEG that evolve over time. At first, the BBEG seems not so bad (Maleficent). Here, we can get off a good Evil Plan + Bwa-ha-ha-ha moment. But I don't want to give away the whole evil plan - the players need to figure that out. This is the "Oh, It's On" speech, before this the players aren't necessarily on guard.

At some point, the players uncover most of the plan. This may or may not let the BBEG have a "You know nothing, and can't stop me now"+bwa-ha-ha-ha moment without the players killing him. Here, Teleport might be the only way to get in the plot and the "You Got Served" speech, because the players already know It's On. And I generally either need or want this speech in there. Teleport may be the only way to do this.

But this could all be done w/ either a Recall sort of spell, or a temorary invulnerability spell that is really only worth it to give a speech. Like SR 40, DR 50/Epic, Immunity to dispels, etc - but only lasts for 1 round.

/end teleport discussion by me

There's also illusions, too. They allow the BBEG to give their speeches and not be there, but look like they are, and look like they can Teleport.

Good idea. I use that mostly for a laugh, though.

Maj at [unixtime wrote:1108659783[/unixtime]]There's also illusions, too. They allow the BBEG to give their speeches and not be there, but look like they are, and look like they can Teleport.

Hmm... though is there a projected illusion spell that you can cast somewhere without line of effect? A sort of teleport illusion so to speak.

The DMG has crystal balls which allow spells to be cast through them. A crystal ball that lets you cast an illusion is not listed but should cost about 45K (and has the benefit of not requiring your BBEG to be a spellcaster).

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1108675364[/unixtime]]

Maj at [unixtime wrote:1108659783[/unixtime]]There's also illusions, too. They allow the BBEG to give their speeches and not be there, but look like they are, and look like they can Teleport.

Hmm... though is there a projected illusion spell that you can cast somewhere without line of effect? A sort of teleport illusion so to speak.

It doesn't really matter, if you can't figure out how to give the BBEG line of sight on the players, without the players knowing where the BBEG is, you probably need to turn in your DM badge.

There's also Sending and the associated spells. They are wickedly high level for that purpose, but if you want the BBEG to taunt people, that's fine.

-Username17

There's also the issue of, "What is the source material?"

If you've ever read Stephen R. Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books, it's pretty apparent that AU is heavily based in them. I think teleport was included more because it's a D&D legacy spell and less because it really fits the setting. It doesn't play a prominent role in the books -- unless you count his initial teleportation, which is more of a plane shift effect.

Also, I don't have a problem with the underpowered exotic spells. There are metamagic feats that grant, for example, all psionic spells or all plant spells, including exotic ones. So, you don't have to burn a feat on the individual spells to get them, necessarily.

The spells being classified into Simple, Complex, and Exotic was a good idea that needed to be taken further.

Simple: These are the spells that every caster should just get as class features. Every caster shgould have, for example, Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, and Glyphs of Warding(Wizards have arcane glyphs, Clerics have holy script, Assasins have death runes, Sorcerers have magical pictographs, Druids have elemental marks, Rangers have fey circles, etc.)

Complex: This should have been a single class's spell list. this should be a static list that does not change when a new supplement comes out. Thats the only way to balance a class vs another class(I mean, once clerics get signature Wizard spells like Wall of Fire and Wizards get signature spells like Cures, then you don't even need two different classes.).

Exotic Spells: These spells should just be Magic Items. That way, when a wizard finds a new spellbook, he's not like "ho hum, just more spells i could have researched on my own. This will save me a few weeks...."

These should be the spells that expand your spell list, allow for themed casters(like Necromancers and Ice Wizards) and allow nifty closs-classing, as well as make it possible for a wizard to actually give a damn about magic item creation.

By making them items, you don't have spellcasters suddenly jumping in power every time a new supplement come out and you can balance them against other classes with static abilties(which also get enhanced with magic items).

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1108759031[/unixtime]]
Exotic Spells: These spells should just be Magic Items. That way, when a wizard finds a new spellbook, he's not like "ho hum, just more spells i could have researched on my own. This will save me a few weeks...."

Spell research needs to be fixed anyway I think. Though I'm not quite sure how. I generally don't like the idea that you can research something that already exists. Somehow, finding a new tome of ancient spells should be something worthwhile. Besides I kind of like the idea of wizards travelling far and wide to pick up special spells.