The Gaming Den

Since the CharOp board sucks, but I do enjoy contests, I think we should have one. The theme for the contest will be "Build the best Illithid Savant." We'll accept admissions on this thread until Sat., then we'll make a poll thread and vote.

Here are the rules:

1. Only use WoTC products.

2. Must have levels of Illithid Savant, and ECL 20 (from monster and character levels).

3. We ARE using the hotly contested "lose PrC benefits if you lose the prereqs." rule.

4. No level draining chicanery, Though Bottle tomfoolery, Werebeast/Savage Species transformations, or any blatantly abusive.... mmmm.... abuse..... of the level system.

5. Any ability gained from the Illithid Savant class must be gained from a monster/character with a CR equal to the Illthid Savant's ECL at the character level where that ability is gained by the Savant.

For example, an ECL 14 Illithid Savant should not have any stolen stuff from anything higher than CR 14. At level 20, you should have, at best, stuff from monsters or characters that are CR 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 respectively.

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Entries will be judged on three things:

1. Most Playable in a campaign.

2. Most Powerful.

3. Oddest.

Winners will gain bragging rights that can totally be part of your ".sig" if you like.

K wrote:3. We ARE using the hotly contested "lose PrC benefits if you lose the prereqs." rule.

No we aren't. By that rule we can't even stay Ilithid Savants if you pick up any transformational powers. The prerequisites of the class are:

[*] Must have consumed the brain of a cR 9 creature
[*] Knowledge: Arcana 10 ranks
These two prereqs can't be taken away from you. But... the last one is:
[*] Race: Mind Flayer

Well shucky-darn! Under 3.5 rules, if our Ilithid Savants polymorph, they no longer have the Mind Flayer race.

So if we are going to have an "Ilithid Savant Contest" we can't use that bogus idea as a rule. It's not as bad as having a Ur Priest contest with that rule (what with the first level class feature forbidding entry into the class and all), but it's close.

-Username17

Here is a message I received from Wizards Customer Service. I don't pretend it to be official, though.


Wizards Customer Service <custserv@wizards.com> wrote:

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast!

1) Does a character who loses the requisites for his Prestige Class lose also the class abilities granted by the class?
(at least in my game this is everyday matter of debate )
Some say yes, according to the 'Complete X' serie (and I agree), others refer to the DMG (which seems to state otherwise).
Who is right?

-Generally speaking, if you no longer possess the prereqs for a PrC you do not gain the class abilities from it.

2) I have another doubt: if a character's Prestige Class has a racial requisite (human ecc.) and the character is polymorphed into another race, does the character lose all of the class abilities provided by the PrC? Frankly, it seems an overkill...I'm not so sure about it.

-Not unless, the spell or effect is permanent (such as from reincarnation).

3) And if a character changes his race through a Ritual from Savage Species, or through Shapechange?

-This is another case where they could lose their PrC for a permanent racial change.

4) And if he gets a template which changes his type?

-Only if it changes their race. For instance, it is possible for a human to be an outsider. Good gaming!

*Please quote this email in any reply.*

Frank wrote:By that rule we can't even stay Illithid Savants if you pick up any transformational powers.

Right.

Its to prevent the transformational exploits like PAOing or Polymorphing into a mind flayer long enough to get class levels and then switching back, or just PAOing or Polymorphing afterwords and being totally better than regular guys without transformational powers. Using this rule neatly avoids a lot of ways to abuse transformational magic and/or the PrC and level system.

Frankly, its not an argument I care to have. Its far easier to just use the restrictive (and totally debated and completely unclear) rules about PrC qualifications and have a clean contest than allow people to argue about trickery involving transformational magic effects.

The goal is less arguments and more fun. After the Wish and Word debacle, I'm all about fun and less about arguments.

Then just ban polymorph from the contest.

Heck, do what they should have done on the WotC boards and make a thread containing all the tricks that should not be used in the contests. And if someone comes up with something like the Wish and the Word then that entry gets moved/copied over to that thread. That way people who come up with exploits you did not think of when you wrote the contest still get some recognition. Consider the "banned" thread a kind of hall of fame if you want.

Bleh, that was me. It said "Welcome Murtak" on the posting screen too.

Since we are all relatively reasonable people, I think that we can in fact just agree on starting as Mind Flayers and disallowing any Savage Species shenanigans.

Otherwise people are going to do things like:

1. Lose their class abilities so that they can regain them at a higher CR and get better stuff.

2. Play as a Half-Ilithid Incarnate Dreadguard in order to minimize ECL.

I don't want to play the game of "Who can exploit the rules of losing/gaining PrC abilities the best." and I don't want to play the game of "who can manipulate the system into counting as an Ilithid with the least number of levels" - I win both of those games, but they are pretty stupid.

No, the game should be: Start as a Mind Flayer. Go up to CR 20 and make a character that doesn't suck.

And damnit, I mean CR 20, not "ECL 20". Because they expect a starting Mind Flayer to be ECL 15, which means that at ECL 20 we can only have 5 levels of Ilithid Savant. In an Ilithid Savant Contest you want:

[*] Everyone to be an Ilithid.
[*] Everyone to be able to max out Ilithid Savant.
[*] Everyone to have something, anything that isn't just the Racial Hit Dice and Ilithid Savant levels.

And that's just a minimum there. It's absolutely essential that we get rid of any idea of losing/gaining prereqs, because that's the most abusable difference engine ever. It is absolutely essential that we make these guys as NPCs so that they use Ilithid CR instead of "Make Ilithid Unplayable" ECL.

And while we are at it, we should ban the following:

[*] Level Loss. The Difference Engine is broken, but it's way too much work to follow what's going on in a build that utilizes it effectively.
[*] Currently recognized Infinite Loops: Artificer Skill Dancing, Simulacrum Farming, Balor Mining, Phoenix Duplication, Spelldancing, More Wishes, Bottle Sucking, and Reawakening just for starters. Once you have a character using these bad boys, the rest of the character isn't even important anymore.

---

But yeah, if someone actually gets a new infinite loop, then they should win that part of the contest - it can go on the infinite loop list and they can name it anything they want. If someone comes up with a clever way to combine their Ilithid Gotten Gains with some combat form to bring das pain - then they should be in the running.

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SC wrote:2) I have another doubt: if a character's Prestige Class has a racial requisite (human ecc.) and the character is polymorphed into another race, does the character lose all of the class abilities provided by the PrC? Frankly, it seems an overkill...I'm not so sure about it.

-Not unless, the spell or effect is permanent (such as from reincarnation).

Oh man, that's the worst answer I've ever read. To anything. Except the Skip answer about whether Paladins in the FRCS could get spells from Torm.

[*] Reincarnation is not a permanent effect. It is an instantaneous effect.
[*] Polymorph Any Object or Baleful Polymorph actually are permanent effects.



So the author of that answer managed to get absolutely everything wrong. Top to bottom, left to right - every single piece of that answer is incorrect. It's like they don't even read the books.

-Username17

My guess is the customer service person meant the "normal" definition of the word permanent rather than the D&D definition. And yes, feel free to call me Captain Obvious.

***

Frank wrote:Except the Skip answer about whether Paladins in the FRCS could get spells from Torm.

At the risk of sidetracking the thread... I don't recall that one. Can you share?

***

And on topic:

Frankmeister wrote:And while we are at it, we should ban the following:


[*]Level Loss. The Difference Engine is broken, but it's way too much work to follow what's going on in a build that utilizes it effectively.

[*]Currently recognized Infinite Loops: Artificer Skill Dancing, Simulacrum Farming, Balor Mining, Phoenix Duplication, Spelldancing, More Wishes, Bottle Sucking, and Reawakening just for starters. Once you have a character using these bad boys, the rest of the character isn't even important anymore.

---

But yeah, if someone actually gets a new infinite loop, then they should win that part of the contest - it can go on the infinite loop list and they can name it anything they want. If someone comes up with a clever way to combine their Ilithid Gotten Gains with some combat form to bring das pain - then they should be in the running.

A most excellent idea - at least in my opinion. My cheese-fu is weak, so I'll be reading rather than entering. But if the idea is to have future contests, then it makes the most sense to come up with a list of "standard" bannage - things that are always out the window.

Zherog wrote:At the risk of sidetracking the thread... I don't recall that one. Can you share?

The question was:

"Deities and Demigods says that only a god who has Paladin levels can grant Paladin spells. In the FRCS, my Paladin needs to worship a god to get spells. Helm doesn't have any Paladin levels, so can I get spells?"

The answer was:

"According to the Player's Hadnbook, a Paladin doesn't need to worship a god to get spells, he can just get them from the raw power of Lawful Good."

The real answer of course is:

Skip, you co-wrote the FRCS, where it specifically gives a special rule that you can only get divine spells from a god, so you're supposed to know better and not be a an asshat about questions like that.

-Username17

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1110313896[/unixtime]]
Oh man, that's the worst answer I've ever read. To anything. Except the Skip answer about whether Paladins in the FRCS could get spells from Torm.

[*] Reincarnation is not a permanent effect. It is an instantaneous effect.
[*] Polymorph Any Object or Baleful Polymorph actually are permanent effects.



So the author of that answer managed to get absolutely everything wrong. Top to bottom, left to right - every single piece of that answer is incorrect. It's like they don't even read the books.

-Username17

Yes, but it is not the worst answer I received. If you want I can provide more shit to laugh about.

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1110313896[/unixtime]]
2. Play as a Half-Ilithid Incarnate Dreadguard in order to minimize ECL.

Do you mean a Warforged? What is a Dreadguard?

A Dreadguard is a 5 HD, 2 CR construct from the MM2. Incarnate Construct gives you a negative LA...

It's not actually the lowest possible ECL you can pull off, but it's damned close.

-Username17

While we're banning infinite loops, let's jettison the one that 3.0 Illithids got built-in too, as that one was pretty key to all of my infinitely infinite illithid savant builds.

Astral Item Projection? Yeah, that goes on the banned list too. 3.5 Mind Flayers don't get it anymore, but any knucklehead with a 9th level Spell slot is totally the win. And they still do get part 2 of that combo: Plane Shift as a spell-like ability.

-Username17

If a Mind Flayer decides to be conservative and a bit more survival-oriented in his combat with you ... you really have no chance of actually ever beating a Mind Flayer. Ever.

Frank wrote:2. Play as a Half-Ilithid Incarnate Dreadguard in order to minimize ECL

Good example of why using CR is a bad idea.

And wow, thats wrong or silly on a bunch of points.
1. If Dreadguards are a playable race(and I don't think they are), they have a min. ECL of 5 for the HD, meaning that the CR of 2 is actually completely irrellevent. CR and ECL/LA are two different concepts.

2. Incarnate only drops the level adjustment by -2 to a min. LA of +0. That won't touch ECL, but may drop your LA for all the powers you pay for but lose from Dreadguard. Welcome to ECL 5 of Humanoid HD and no abilities to show for it. You are better off taking levels of Humanoid off of Orc. At least you get Darkvision.

3. The flavor text on Half-illithid says "the process yields a half-illithid, rather than an actual mind flayer." Since Illithid Savant requires a you to be a "Mind Flayer," and not an "Illithid," you are SOL.

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However, since we are reasonable people, we'll add three more rules:

6. For this contest, the ECL on the Mind Flayer will be 8.

7. Brains eaten should come from creatures with a brain(singular) that can be digested in a biological kind of way. Be reasonable, but this means that most Constructs, Oozes, Swarms and Elementals are out, as are summoned monsters(since the brain vanishes on death).

8. Known infinite loops are out fvckers, per Frank's list above.

Brief question...

So where are we getting the Illithid Savant class from... I can certainly find it if need be, I know I have it somewhere and I suspect I know where, what I mean is is there more than one version of it in publication? And if so which one do we use?

And...

The easiest thing is to ignore the loss of prestige class thing and just have a contest precondition that everyone is, was, and always has been an illithid. Its the nice way to do it.

And as long as the ECL is the same who cares what it is, we get the same supposed resulting effectiveness of character at the end. Personally I say screw the ECL thing and let them have all their hit dice and crap and be ECL 0. Then we can play with a full 20 levels. But otherwise whatever as long as its DEFINITELY something under ten and hopefully nothing above their monster hit die.

Also...

What about psionic illithids? You know, that whole thing where there is a psionic form of the monster outlined in the psi handbook. I would like that. I'm not committing to go out and make a poorly built psionic illithid character and enter it in the contest, I'm just saying I MIGHT.

---Illithid Savants are in Savage Species.

---The "losing prereqs" thing prevents nastiness like Reincarnation, becoming an undead spawn, and any number of crazy things. Its easier to have then to spot-nerf any number of other tactics.

I mean, what are you going to do thats going to make you loose your skill ranks or race thats NOT abusive?

---The Psionic Illithids seem kosher by me. Enjoy those Psionics.....if you can.

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1110348476[/unixtime]]---Illithid Savants are in Savage Species.

---The "losing prereqs" thing prevents nastiness like Reincarnation, becoming an undead spawn, and any number of crazy things. Its easier to have then to spot-nerf any number of other tactics.

I mean, what are you going to do thats going to make you loose your skill ranks or race thats NOT abusive?

Umm...I would imagine you'd be eating something that allows you to change your shape. Then when you change your shape, you would lose your ability to change your shape. I'm really not sure which form you are stuck in at that point. Seems like a poorly considered rule to me.

Are you saying that there is any transformation magic that changes race that is not abusive?

All that stuff totally breaks the game and makes for an ufair competition. I mean, some guys will be replacing stats and live in a Shapechanged form with higher natural armor and attacks all that jazz, and other guys will make any other kind of build and suck in comparison.

Really, its not fair for a competition.

I assume the "steal other Illithid Savant's powers" loop is out as well?

Right. The "steal other Savant powers" loop is out.

I'd actually be willing to ban form shifting for this competition, because it's confusing and broken. But I would not be OK with a rule that allowed people to turn their prestige class abilities on and off. Especially with the Ilithid Savant - it's just asking for people to difference engine in artificer XP or something.

Also, if we make the rule that you only get to eat te brains of people with the same CR as you, it really matters what we consider your CR to be at any given time. So while in a strictly game balance sense of "4 Ilithid Savants walk into a game" it doesn't make any difference what ECL you give them (so long as it is the same) - for the purposes of the contest it makes a huge difference.

And yes, I'd really much prefer it if we used CR over ECL. ECL was a stupid and shitty idea from the get-go, and it doesn't get any better ever no matter how you look at it. The Ilithid in this scenario are pretty much locked into the role of spellcasters, because they can shunt themselves into high levels of spellcasting at 19th level and then take a level of Alienist and cast spells as a normal 20th level whatever. I'd rather if some people were able to make Mind Flayer Grapple Experts - which is possible with CR but not with ECL. A Mind Flayer with 8 Barbarian levels is CR 12, but ECL 16 even if we chuck the absurd LA out the window (by official rules, a Mind Flayer with 8 Barbarian Levels is supposed to compete at Epic levels with his mighty BAB of +14).

There's no particular way to make that not suck, but honestly I think that what with the way Fighters suck so hard past level 10, that leting someone walk into a 12th level game with a BAB of +14 is probably fair.

-Username17

If I can Gate a Greater Doppelganger with a scroll and eat his brain, I totally win.

That is one of the worst written monsters. Ever. How exactly it's supposed to work is basically anyone's guess.

But yeah, if you use your 5th level "Acquire Special Quality" power to acquire "Consume Identity" then you win D&D. But remember, while the Consume Identity form shift is in effect you are effectively the other character - but you can't combine two forms you've eaten in that way (since you only have the abilities, memories, and fvcking alignment while in that form).

So I would that yes, that could be your 5th level brain consumption It's even CR 12 to your 13, so go nuts.

But you couldn't eat the brain of an Efreet and get its Wish granting power to give yourself wishes (since you are a mortal, and not a Genie). Not because the RAW says you can't do that, but because "More Wishes" is on the list of things you can't do in the contest.

-Username17

I like the fact that our contests are more about figuring out what combinations are so obviously overpowered that they shouldn't be allowed than actually putting together a build.

Yay us.