[Tome feat] Mystic Dilettante

[Avoraciopoctules]

What happened with the formatting? I tried deleting and re-post. Didn't work.

I don't see anything obviously wrong with the quote and bold tags, but maybe if you just copied the plain text we'd avoid whatever the problem is.

EDIT: this post is on a new page. If you want, I could try quoting you and see whether the text messes things up on this page as well.

[Yugo]

Try again.

Anyway, how about a 'savage dilettante' feat that gives you the BAB and class abilities (except fast healing) of a barbarian two levels below your own? That creates some nice symmetry for characters that should be primarily magic focused but have a bit of the ol' Conan up their sleeves. And provide a nice (but ultimately insignificant) boost to martial characters like monks and knights.

I'll bite.

Remedial Martial Training
You may be an arcane spellcaster, but you also know how to whack things to death.
Level 1 Wizard or something: You gain proficiencies with simple weapons, martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields. You can cast arcane spells without failure even when using armor.
Level 6: Your base attack bonus is equal to your character level, irregardless of your character class(es). You make iterative attacks using this new BAB. You also gain 1 hit point per character level.
Level 11: As a standard action, you can make an attack with your weapon while also casting a spell that would take a standard action or less to cast normally. The act of attacking becomes that spell's somatic component, if that ever matters.
Level 16: The game's already broken, so who gives a shit?

[JonSetanta]

Level 16: The game's already broken, so who gives a shit?

Yeah. Ah... that's bad about 3e and Tome.
Furthering that approach to design is worse though.

[Judging__Eagle]

You should really put something for the lvl 16 ability.

Some of us are playing in level 20 Tome games. :/

[Prak]

so is Rememdial Martial Training supposed to only be available to casters? I could see a rogue or some such taking Remedial Martial Training and Mystic Dilettante to some effectiveness...

[MGuy]

I still say it seems like a little much, even tome wise, to have feats like these. for the cost of two feats You can get effective spellcasting AND the melee abilities of a fighting type class by level 6. I don't know anyone no matter what the class who'd pass that up.

[Prak]

I still say it seems like a little much, even tome wise, to have feats like these. for the cost of two feats You can get effective spellcasting AND the melee abilities of a fighting type class by level 6. I don't know anyone no matter what the class who'd pass that up.

Well, I'd say classes that already get one or the other would pass up the appropriate feat, of course, though even martial classes, if they take Mystic Dilettante might take Remedial Martial Training for the "ignore arcane spell failure" and "attack and cast as one action."

But yes, that was my point, I'm going to run some numbers though.

[MGuy]

I wouldn't even make that claim. If this works as I think it does, a wizard can get sorcerer spell slots. That would more than double his spell usage below his highest level spells. Clerics/Druids would get full access to arcane spell lists for all but they're highest level spells. Any class that took the feat would grow exponentially in effectiveness/adaptability AND still be able to retain a cohort to wrap up anything that they might miss. All that would be in addition to whatever class features they already retain.

[Yugo]

so is Rememdial Martial Training supposed to only be available to casters? I could see a rogue or some such taking Remedial Martial Training and Mystic Dilettante to some effectiveness...

Yes, it's meant only for arcane casters. I was ready to tie it to be able to cast arcane spells of X level, but realized that Wizards get new spells only at odd levels instead of of the levels 1, 6, 11, 16 that the other feats tie into. Hence I tied the new abilities gained to Wizard class levels as an ad hoc solution.

[Yugo]

Remedial Martial Training was meant to make Gish concepts possible, hence the ability to cast and attack as one action. Though in retrospect, this ability probably encourages 'cast and fire an arrow' over 'cast and swing with a sword'.

And I don't know why people think the feat is too powerful. Considering that:

1) The Wizard spent one of the few feats available in their life. The feat better be worth it.

2) Martial actions are weak without additional damage dies (e.g. Rage dice, Sneak Attack) that Wizards won't have.

So at level 1, this feat gives purely an AC boost by giving a Wizard the ability to wear armor.

At level 6, it boosts the Wizard's life to that of a Rogue's and some trivial BAB boost that won't do much since non-touch attack actions still suck for Wizards.

At level 11, your Wizards finally becomes a real Gish. While it may be cool thematically, mechanically it's a bit of a "Who cares?" It doesn't add options that are that good.

This feat is probably on the weak side.

[Prak]

well, I don't know about Remedial Martial Training, but I just wrote up a Tiefling rogue with Mystic Dilettante and a Tiefling wizard. The addition of spellcasting, imo, doesn't significantly change the rogue's ability priorities, as a rogue wants high int for skills, so he can tie his casting into that, however, I still see Dex as higher priority so a Rogue beats a Wizard (using average rolls) simply because the rogue goes first and can cast sleep. I suppose if the Wizard is built to have the highest will save possible, then that's different, but I've never built a wizard that way, and didn't think about it until just now.

I need to dig up the same game test and check 'em against that, I suppose.

[MGuy]

I am much more worried about the Mystic Dilettante than the Remedial Martial training (though depending on what the 16th level ability is still seems like a bit much). I haven't thought much about the martial bit but it still seems unnecessary to even put the option out there. High BAB, the ability to cast through an attack, and access to any kind of weapon IN addition to the other natural abilities that the casting classes already have for the cost of a single feat does seem like it will just give more to classes that don't need more.

My major concern is still Mystic Dilettante. I can't stress enough how broken it is to give sorcerer casting, even if its 2 levels behind to a class on top of their other feats. at 20th level you'd have spells as if you had 18 levels of sorcerer on top of whatever else you got at the cost of a 3rd level feat. The OPness of that just seems so obvious to me even without going through the numbers. If I were a tome Fighter I'd definitely have both of the feats that way I can cast And attack just by giving up a single standard action. So I would basically lose my haste action and it would damn well be worth the cost (Attack+Spell).

[Yugo]

Edit: I didn't write this feat with the other feat in mind. So for now, I will ignore the case of a Fighter with both feats.

What is this about "seems like a bit much"? You burned a feat. What you get better be good. And the more I think about it, it seems like the feat is no where good enough. The options it provides doesn't synergize well with what a Wizard has.

A Wizard should have high Int (for high DC) and Dex (to have initiative). His or her Str and Con are typically low. Having high BAB, armor, and marginally more life won't make him good archer, much less a viable melee fighter. And the ability to attack and cast spell at once is only marginally better than cast a spell because your weapon attack probably sucks.

I think for Remedial Martial Training to be a worthwhile feat, it needs to make attack actions worth more with respect to spellcasting. Either that or give more frills.

[Akula]

I play with Avoraciopoctules and I can say that I HATE Mystic Dilettante. I'm playing a WoTC Warmage in a game (Because a Warmage/War Mage appeals to me) and the Barbarian spent a single feat slot on having fully half of the arcane power I spent all my fucking class levels on. And he will be able to do things other than blast for low damage. If the player wasn't an idiot I would be outclassed as a caster by the party's fighter. Mystic Dilettante also pops up on far too many characters, around four so far, I would not allow it in my games as I feel it makes the game worse.

[Judging__Eagle]

I'd say to replace it, and have people take the Leadership feat and have an intelligent item as their cohort.

[Koumei]

Yeah, it's not a feat that I allow. I don't care that it's a nerfed Sorcerer and we have no respect for Sorcerers - Sorcerer is still a viable class, and offering a complete spellcasting class (with a small reduction in power) as a feat is just too much. Remember how pre-Tome, Wizards could replicate Fighters or Barbarians entirely with the casting of a single spell? This is like that, in the other direction.

[TarkisFlux]

I think JE's right and it should just be replaced with Leadership, but I had this alternate take in my head and figured I'd toss it out.

Mystic Dilettante [Knowledge]
Magic's a hobby, and other casters are your guides.
Rank 0: Pick one of the following Knowledge skills: Arcane, Nature, or Religion. This skill is now a class skill for you, regardless of class. Whichever skill you select is also the skill that increases the benefits of this feat.
Rank 4: You can spend time with any caster while they are preparing spells, and prepare some of theirs yourself. You can prepare any spell that they could also prepare, subject to the following limitations. You can prepare arcane spells from wizards, sorcerers, bards, etc. if you tied this feat to Knowledge (Arcane). You can prepare divine spells from clerics, paladins, etc., if you tied this feat to Knowledge (Religion). You can prepare natural divine spells from Druids, Rangers, etc. if you tied this feat to Knowledge (Nature). You may prepare up to 2 spells at this level. You can prepare no more than 1 spell of a level equal to your one-half of your (knowledge ranks -2). Your caster level with these spells is equal to your relevant knowledge ranks-3.
Rank 9: You can prepare up to 4 spells a day. No more than 1 of them may be of the highest level available to you: (knowledge ranks -2) / 2, and no more than 2 of them may be of the level below that.
Rank 14: You may prepare up to 6 spells in a day. No more than 2 of them may be of the highest level available to you: (knowledge ranks -2) / 2, and no more than 2 of them may be of the level below that.
Rank 19: You may prepare up to 8 spells in a day. No more than 2 of them may be of the highest level available to you: (knowledge ranks -2) / 2, and no more than 3 of them may be of the level below that.
Special: This skill feat may be selected multiple times, each time being tied to a different Knowledge skill.

[MGuy]

Does this feat mean you can use metamagic?

[CatharzGodfoot]

Mr Flux, I think that leaves the feat taker too much at the mercy of party composition.

[JonSetanta]

Yeah, it's not a feat that I allow. I don't care that it's a nerfed Sorcerer and we have no respect for Sorcerers - Sorcerer is still a viable class, and offering a complete spellcasting class (with a small reduction in power) as a feat is just too much. Remember how pre-Tome, Wizards could replicate Fighters or Barbarians entirely with the casting of a single spell? This is like that, in the other direction.

Pretty much the same lecture I got from the Feybook director when I made a similar feat 2 years ago for single spell schools.
It was meant to give individual Fey their own specialty spells.
Instead, it ended up pushing regular casters out of work.

I was going to butt in earlier here but figured it was agreement all around...

So, yeah, don't give out entire classes with a single feat. Cohorts are one thing... packaging it all on the same character is another.
Just as with Divine Power spell or that Cleric spell making you a Rogue, two wrongs don't make right, Tome-snark of "It's broken for some. Let's fuck it up for everyone fairly" aside.

The alternative I pursued was a small pool of spells provided by the single feat.
They were mostly utility in nature, nothing exceptionally combat-worthy.
The spells got better, and I think there was an option to swap them out, but the single feat didn't provide anything near the diversity of a single-classed Spellcaster.

[Akula]

Mystic Dilettante [Skill]: You have the ability to suck at casting spells. This is a skill feat that scales to your ranks in Spellcraft.
0: Spellcraft and Know: Arcana are class skills for you.
4: You may cast 8 cantrips from any list as at will SLAs.
9: You get the spells know and spells per day of a sorcerer of 1/2 your character level, you may select your spells from either the Sorc/Wizard list, the Cleric list, or the Druid list. Your caster level is equal to your character level -3. Choose any mental ability score as your casting stat.
14: Your caster level is equal to your character level.
19: You may cast one spell of 7th level as an SLA 3/day.

That's my version. Does it fix the feat: no. The premise is probably too powerful because there will always be effects that you want to dumpster dive for. But it should never overshadow the primary casters now.

[TarkisFlux]

Mr Flux, I think that leaves the feat taker too much at the mercy of party composition.

You're probably right Mr. Godfoot, but there's two related issues in there: source access and spell access. Source access I wanted to restrict. So while I thought about just making it a spellcraft skill and being able to use any magical source, no other class gets that and I really didn't want to toss it into a feat because of how it synergizes with casters (take a feat, a skill you're pumping already, and cast off of someone else's list!). At least this way you have to spend skill points in a skill you probably aren't taking already.

Spell access could be opened up though I guess. You could make them less party dependent by picking a source as outlined above and then allowing them to memorize any spell they understood, whether that's by memorizing from an understood scroll, a borrowed / conquered spellbook (via that weird spellcraft check to never roll against a borrowed book again), or with help from a party member using their stuff. The first two require spellcraft checks, which the character probably doesn't have as a class skill and probably isn't putting ranks into, but you could probably pull it off and there really isn't a good reason to block it.

The big issue with this whole thing for me (in all of it's incarnations) is that it's competing with cohort casting, and I'm not really convinced that this is a workable idea on any level without substantial changes to cohorts. I'd still take a cohort over the previous incarnation of the feat to get the extra actions and potential decoy. This revised feat gives them level appropriate spells that they can't get any other way, I'm just not sure that the ability to cast limited level appropriate spells once or twice a day with some lesser effects is worth taking in place of just getting a cohort caster with lots of lesser effects. As such I'm not really motivated to worry about it. I only tossed it out because I'd been kicking it around, haven't posted in a few weeks, and thought it might help move things in a better direction.

[JonSetanta]

That's my version. Does it fix the feat: no. The premise is probably too powerful because there will always be effects that you want to dumpster dive for. But it should never overshadow the primary casters now.

You probably didn't laugh at it the same way I just did but...

... it's still a better option than much of the Complete Arcrap and InCompetent Mage ever provided.
Irony? Justice? You decide. I'd take that over Black Lore of Moil or the spell that grants one extra slot any fucking time.

[Koumei]

If people really want feats to grant spells, a better idea might be a feat that grants specific spells as SLAs - you could have a bunch of them. It'd be within acid-spitting distance of Spheres.

Like...

Pixie Dance

You have magic pants that let you do a magic dance.

Benefit: you can cast Dancing Lights and Mage Hand as SLAs at will. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Knowledge: Arcana OR Nature.

4: you can also cast Colour Spray and Charm Person once per day each.

9: you can also cast Faerie Fire and Spirit Wall once per day each.

14: you can now cast Deep Slumber and Reaving Dispel once each per day.

19: you can cast Prismatic Spray, Otto's Irresistable Dance and Eternal Slumber once per day each.


Devil Pact:

You made a stupid deal, but you get power out of it.

Benefit: you can cast Bane as a SLA at will. The rest of the benefits depend on your ranks in Knowledge: the Planes.

4: you can also cast Investiture of the Spined Devil once per day.

9: you can also cast Investiture of the Bearded Devil and Investiture of the Chain Devil once per day each.

14: you can now cast Investiture of the Amnizu and Investiture of the Erinyes once each per day.

19: you can cast Investiture of the Horned Devil, Investiture of the Pit Fiend and Investiture of the Ice Devil once per day each.

Special: devils probably often rock up to make you pay, but this is really just a part of your expected level-appropriate encounters routine.

[Crissa]

That's a neat way of doing them.

I was having a system where you could have a feat grant a non-stacking number of spontaneous spell slots which were cast as SLAs... That way you'd qualify for wands and stuff. And then have a list of 0-9 that the feat would also grant.

-Crissa