I don't want to buy 3rd edition so stop trying to sell it to

[shadzar]

me.

Got it?

There is nothing you can do to get me to buy into anything from 3rd. It is a bloated pile of shit with needless amounts of "rules" and lists of things that people are too stupid to think on their own for.

Now you have a thread here about it, so can direct all attempts here and I will not return to this thread. Hopefully it will keep you idiots that keep trying to sell me on 3rd (or 4th) from clogging up other threads with your sales pitches.

Now feel free to discuss why you blindly bought a shitty game because the people that made Magic the Gathering told you to.

[ubernoob]

There's already a topic for this:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50416

No need to repost a topic that's still on the first page.

[TOZ]

Got it?

'Kay.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I'd post in the other thread, but for this particular point:

There is nothing you can do to get me to buy into anything from 3rd. It is a bloated pile of shit with needless amounts of "rules" and lists of things that people are too stupid to think on their own for.

Anything? That's like saying there's nothing worthwhile in WoD, CthulhuTech, or even 1E. What about modules? What about books like Beyond Countless Doorways? What about the idea of a [I can't even think of an appropriate expletive adjective at this moment] SRD?

I may not have much regard for 2E, but that doesn't keep me from lifting ideas for class features, magic items, and in rare cases mechanical morale rules. It certainly doesn't stop me from using books like Faces of Evil.

[Maj]

Got it?

Not a problem, so long as you understand that I would rather not shit for a week than play 2E. Proselytizing 2E by implying that the ability to do more math somehow makes a person a better roleplayer, that people who prefer 3E are too stupid to think on their own, and that THAC0 is something we should hold in high regard will not net you anything (but scorn).

[Lago PARANOIA]

Proselytizing 2E by implying that the ability to do more math somehow makes a person a better roleplayer,

How can doing more arithmetic make you a better roleplayer when min-maxxing or examining the mechanics makes you a worse one?

[cthulhu]

It's not clear, hence the stupidity of the argument.

[koz]

Ok, shadzar, congratulations. I didn't even do this to Elennsar or Roy, and in fact, have only done it to two people ever, but now you're the third. Welcome to ignore world. I hope you like it there.

[Roy]

Ok, shadzar, congratulations. I didn't even do this to Elennsar or Roy, and in fact, have only done it to two people ever, but now you're the third. Welcome to ignore world. I hope you like it there.

Ah, so you are in the useless pile. I was wondering about that. No matter.

[God_of_Awesome]

Well, as long as were on the subject, nothing you guys say to me will ever make me scoff at 4th Edition. I don't play it myself but I will not look at 4ed Players and thing 'Oh you poor deluded fools.'

Just my two cents.

I might play it myself, actually, if only to emulate a fantasy table-top version of Team Fortress Two, which would rock.

[Red_Rob]

Nothing in 3rd edition is better than 2nd? Literally nothing?

Oh come on, you have to give me the saves! The saves in 2nd didn't even make sense! the rulebook even listed the 5(!) nonsensical saves then had a section saying "sometimes a stat check will be used as a save. Occasionally. If, y'know, you feel like it."

The worst thing is that the example it gave was a block of stone falling on a character, and said "he needs speedy reactions to get out of the way, so a Dexterity ability check should be rolled to see if he avoids the trap." WHAT! Nearly everything in the preceding list of saves needs "speedy reactions" to get out of the way! Then, in the very next paragraph it states "Dexterity, if high enough, can give a character a slightly higher chance of avoiding the effects of fireballs, lightning bolts, crushing boulders, and other attacks where nimbleness may be a help."

So which is it? Do i use a dex check, or a save modified by Dex? That can be a massive difference in probability of success. A level 1 character can have an 18 Dex but to get a 3+ save you need to be around level 16.

I can't believe even you think this is better than the "Fortitude for resist with toughness, Willpower to resist mentally and Reflex to dodge" system of 3rd. Even in my current 2nd Edition campaign (played almost straight for the nostalgia kick) we caved and used the new save system.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Well, as long as were on the subject, nothing you guys say to me will ever make me scoff at 4th Edition. I don't play it myself but I will not look at 4ed Players and thing 'Oh you poor deluded fools.'

As someone who ran a lot of 4E games (I'm running two right now; one online and one offline) I do have to say that 4E works in the same way that Mutants and Masterminds d20 works--if you play the game the designers intended and don't try to do things like deviate from or game the system then you can have a good degree of fun.

Now I bubble with hatred and call it a bad game because even with this limitation M&M still represented a swatch of games I wanted to play. 4E doesn't play as anything other than a Diablo dungeon crawler where you don't really advance in power or scope. But the people I run a game with actually want to play that kind of game so I can't really call them stupid--not the same way I call people who like 3.5E better than 3.0E stupid, because those revisions try to emulate the same kind of game only one is empirically inferior.

Savvy?

[koz]

Ah, so you are in the useless pile. I was wondering about that. No matter.

Would you care to elaborate, Roy? If you interpreted my statement to be a stain on your character, I assure you it isn't. It just seems to be a popular thing around here to put you on ignore, and I was just remarking that, unlike everyone else, I have never done that (and by that, I meant I don't use the ignore function like some kind of CPR device).

[Maj]

Proselytizing 2E by implying that the ability to do more math somehow makes a person a better roleplayer,

How can doing more arithmetic make you a better roleplayer when min-maxxing or examining the mechanics makes you a worse one?

That's exactly my point. In the THAC0 thread, I saw lots of stupid people not being able to subtract somehow being made relevant to the fact that this is supposed to be a game where you pretend to be someone else, not a game where you demonstrate your mathematical prowess.

I play the occasional game with a guy who sounds a lot like shadzar - he hates 3.0 because it's "too easy" and "anyone can play." Yet when you bust out a cleric archer his mind boggles because you're not healing the party (The DM wouldn't let me name her Imnotabandaid much to my dismay) - you're too busy kicking ass. Somehow, the idea of being able to do obscure math makes players of 2E better, but min/maxxers suck for trying to spank the game.

I don't understand that at all.

I don't play it myself but I will not look at 4ed Players and thing 'Oh you poor deluded fools.'

4th is just not my kind of game. I'm not a fan of computer RPGs, and 4th just feels too much like that for my taste. But there are a lot of people out there who are into that sort of thing. That's great.

[RandomCasualty2]

So which is it? Do i use a dex check, or a save modified by Dex? That can be a massive difference in probability of success. A level 1 character can have an 18 Dex but to get a 3+ save you need to be around level 16.

Yeah. 2nd edition saves were completely ridiculous.