Elite Array Sucks

[Crissa]

They've been playing with 5d4 or a point buy system (though it's much steeper than book).

Everyone always goes with the point buy.

-Crissa

[Psychic Robot]

While I don't play 3e now that Pathfinder is out, if I were to play it, I would use a 28 point buy with the following changes:

1. Rangers get a free +2 bonus to their Wisdom score.
2. Paladins get a free +2 bonus to their Charisma and Wisdom scores.
3. Monks get a free +4 bonus to their Constitution and Wisdom scores.

[koz]

While I don't play 3e now that Pathfinder is out, if I were to play it, I would use a 28 point buy with the following changes:

1. Rangers get a free +2 bonus to their Wisdom score.
2. Paladins get a free +2 bonus to their Charisma and Wisdom scores.
3. Monks get a free +4 bonus to their Constitution and Wisdom scores.

My build for PR's game:

Ranger 1/Paladin 1/Monk 1/Druid rest.

[erik]

5 druid/1 monk/X Druid seems very workable. Wildshape add rocking wis to AC, and depending on god knows what polymorph ruleset is in force the +4 con is gravy.

[Judging__Eagle]

I.... do the following

In high level games; 13's down the line (8 +5 inherent); and you get 20-30 pts to free-buy, no stat being able to be higher than a 23 before racial mods, age mods or level mods.

For lower level games; 8 in each stat and a 20 pt free buy; nothing higher than an 18 before racial/level/age modifiers.

I'm honestly not caring enough to teach absolutely new players how to use the point buy system that even I haven't been able to learn and memorize; and I'm not going to look it up every time I need it.

Dice rolling for stats just wastes time; and again, for new players it's an other hurdle to getting them into the door of playing.

I tend to have a lot of new players in my games. I honestly like it because they always bring a new perspective to the game.

Making them learn a ton of rules for character creation is completely counter to bringing them in, and not having them tainted with rules that have very little bearing on the campaign.

[Starmaker]

I mostly use the "write in whatever the fuck you want, no higher than 18 before adjustments" method. Remarkably, (1) people don't put 18s everywhere and (2) certain players still feel the need to say, "I wanted an organic character so I rolled 3d6 and this is seriously what I got" (probability-defying numbers follow). Also, I hand out the first books at level 5 or so.

While we're at that, fuck age adjustments. Stat increases come from experience, not age itself, and discouraging people from playing middle-aged martial characters citing realism when said characters can take 10 and break the Earth in half is retarded.

[Vnonymous]

I use starmaker's method as well.

If someone is going to use those numbers to make a character that'll break the game (which I really can't see happening) then they're probably not going to contributem much to the campaign anyway.

[hogarth]

Then I guess every system is basically the same as the elite array and we should all just get over it?

-Username17

Nice false dichotomy.

I can think of four possible goals for a stat-generating system:
1) Fairness between players.
2) Allows players to play the character they want.
3) Doesn't favor one type of character more than others (e.g. SAD vs. MAD).
4) Has a degree of randomness (or "organicness" or whatever the fuck you want to call it).

Personally, I don't give a shit about #4, but some people like it.

So how does the Elite array stack up? Good on #1, poor on #2 & #3, and null points on #4.

How about an array of 17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 10? Good on #1, fair on #2 & #3, and still zero on #4.

What about Frank's method? Hard to say, because he still hasn't mentioned exactly how many dice he's rolling. Assuming he's using 4d6-drop-lowest, it's good on #1, and poor-to-fair on #2, #3 and #4 (depending on the variety of rolls available).

What about a 32 or 36 point buy? Good on #1 and #2, poor on #3, and zero on #4.

They've been playing with 5d4 or a point buy system (though it's much steeper than book).

Everyone always goes with the point buy.

Likewise, I always offer the opportunity to roll 4d6-drop-1 in my games. No one's taken me up on it yet.

[Roy]

32 point buy. Lets the MAD characters get something decent, and anything over 25 doesn't power up SAD characters anyways.

This is actually why I hate point buy and do not use it.

-Username17

Lol, what?

[Username17]

What's not to understand? Wizards don't lose anything meaningful by setting their non-Int stats to 8. Druids don't lose anything at all by setting their non-Wis stats to 8. The entire concept of Point Buy is broken on first principles. Trading points in on stat for points in another stat is not a trade-off, not even an uneven tradeoff in any cases where we are concerned about how much power a character is accumulating.

The ability to trade points from your tertiary stats to heap into your prime stat at any exchange rate at all is a straight powerup of primary casters at the expense of all other characters. Ability array systems of any sort are good because they give arbitrary values for your tertiary stats. That gives nothing to primary casters one way or the other and depending upon the stat arrays that you use will either be a boon or bane to MAD characters.

The elite array is rather to low, because it's not good enough to run a truly MAD character off of and because you're statistically likely to do better simply taking your chances with 4d6. The Elite Array is, after all, the middle of the 4d6 bellcurve before you throw out all the rolls that you get to drop because net stat arrays are too low or none of the stats are high enough. Once you factor that in, you do better simply rolling dice.

Hence my compromise. You get the advantages of stat arrays (which are substantial) and you get the kinds of stats that people actually get rolling dice so that no one feels cheated. I genuinely don't understand the appeal of point buys of any exchange rate or any number in the D&D system. The existence of the Wizard and the Rogue are clear indications that the game was never concepted against the realities of a point buy system. And it simply doesn't work.

-Username17

[souran]

After playing RPGs for as long as I have I have decided that the method I like best is Arrays.

Not really the elite array for the reasons listed here, but a premade slate of ability scores, or a list of such premade slates is what I like.

The reasons are fairly straight forward. If you play with rolled up characters the chances that one of the 4-5-6 players will have a character who destroys the RNG are pretty good. I want the players to feel powerful without making the game trivial.

Also, there is the fairness issue, if one player rolls the uber statline it causes resentment unless you do what frank does and let everybody play with that statline. The reason I used to like point buys was because of the fairness issue. However, as has been pointed out point buy helps SAD characters while usually shafting MAD characters.

The real issue is that if you don't set up your arrays correctly you can still whose mad characters. Honestly, you basically need arrays for both kinds of characters.

[hogarth]

The reason I used to like point buys was because of the fairness issue. However, as has been pointed out point buy helps SAD characters while usually shafting MAD characters.

That depends on the point buy system you use, of course.

[RandomCasualty2]

What's not to understand? Wizards don't lose anything meaningful by setting their non-Int stats to 8. Druids don't lose anything at all by setting their non-Wis stats to 8. The entire concept of Point Buy is broken on first principles.

No, polymorph is just broken on principles. If you can't swap out your stats, I guarantee you that no wizard or druid is going to walk around with 8 con or 8 dex.

[Josh_Kablack]

This gives a mean of 12.5 (rather than the 12.24 you would expect with 4d6s3 * 6),
..
Keith

But the standard rolling method for D&D 3.x IS NOT JUST 4d6 DROP LOWEST (see 3.5 PHB page 8), so anything balanced against that average is statistically inferior to just having players roll and the right choice for any given player is always to roll randomly instead, which makes any such system worthless unless it's mandatory for all players. And as it results it lower numbers: making it mandatory is a nerf.

At least be honest that your system is resulting in weaker PCs on purpose.

[souran]

What's not to understand? Wizards don't lose anything meaningful by setting their non-Int stats to 8. Druids don't lose anything at all by setting their non-Wis stats to 8. The entire concept of Point Buy is broken on first principles.

No, polymorph is just broken on principles. If you can't swap out your stats, I guarantee you that no wizard or druid is going to walk around with 8 con or 8 dex.

Actually, if the cost of having an 18 int was being forced to have an 8 con and an 8 dex it would STILL be worthwhile to play the wizard who just happens to be a physical cripple\

Infact, you would probably have a world filled with rastiln majire clones and being born physically deformed is a sign of great privalage for you Obviously are going to be a wizard.

[Kaelik]

Indeed, that assumed "best" PBs for 25 and 28 PB are:

8/Dex/Con/18/8/8 with the 9 or 12 points going into Con and Dex depending on the preference of the individual.

(IE future undead put it in Dex, Fire Elvish Dragonborn favor Con.)

So if you presented someone with a 16 PB, they might take a 16. But they might just as well take and 18 Int, and make going undead mandatory.

[Username17]

Interesting fact: go ahead and look at the four stat lines I rolled up and recorded. If each player was required to simply submit their first roll, the average stat would have been 12.04 - almost precisely average for rolling 4d6 and keeping the best 3. However, since the worst set is also allowed to be dropped, that set doesn't exist and was replaced by another one. And the average stat amongst the sets the players would, according to the rules, be required to actually submit - is 12.75. And that is pretty much average for actually rolling dice by the system offered in the basic book.

And that is why I wouldn't take point buy over rolling even as a player. The results of actually rolling dice are a lot better than the Elite Array or 25 point buy.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

Interesting fact: go ahead and look at the four stat lines I rolled up and recorded. If each player was required to simply submit their first roll, the average stat would have been 12.04 - almost precisely average for rolling 4d6 and keeping the best 3. However, since the worst set is also allowed to be dropped, that set doesn't exist and was replaced by another one. And the average stat amongst the sets the players would, according to the rules, be required to actually submit - is 12.75. And that is pretty much average for actually rolling dice by the system offered in the basic book.

And that is why I wouldn't take point buy over rolling even as a player. The results of actually rolling dice are a lot better than the Elite Array or 25 point buy.

-Username17

You mean you wouldn't take point buy for a MAD class? I assume the guarantee of an 18 with point buy makes it vastly superior for any SAD class.

Or are you saying you would go with your "Everyone roll and pick the best set" over Elite and 25 point buy?

[Kaelik]

And that is why I wouldn't take point buy over rolling even as a player. The results of actually rolling dice are a lot better than the Elite Array or 25 point buy.

In my experience, no one ever actually plays with 25PB, or even 28. 32 is the minimum.

In that way, PBs don't actually favor Wizards all that much, since a 40PB is just, hey Wizard, you get an 18 and some other stuff, but for other characters, it's 4 16s if they are MAD.

[Lago PARANOIA]

In my experience, no one ever actually plays with 25PB, or even 28. 32 is the minimum.

What's particularly hilarious are the NPC writeups of people with 25-point buy. That poor monk has a wisdom and a dexterity score of 15 and 14.

[Ice9]

I'm not sold on the uber-SADness of casters. For one thing, depending on what spells you use, there might not be many saving throws involved, so the difference between a 16 and 18 is just a single bonus slot, and only at certainly levels even then.

Secondly, in a world without constant use of Polymorph, and where going undead isn't convenient, dumping your Con too low will kill you, and Dex is somewhat valuable for initiative alone, as well as touch attacks and reflex saves.

[ubernoob]

I'm not sold on the uber-SADness of casters. For one thing, depending on what spells you use, there might not be many saving throws involved, so the difference between a 16 and 18 is just a single bonus slot, and only at certainly levels even then.

Secondly, in a world without constant use of Polymorph, and where going undead isn't convenient, dumping your Con too low will kill you, and Dex is somewhat valuable for initiative alone, as well as touch attacks and reflex saves.

When offered point buy on wizards I will seriously just dump the fuck out of dex and just make sure my con is good. Dex isn't the biggest contributer to initiative anyways. Deep imaskari dragonborn middle aged wizard looks like this on 25 PB:
8/9/15/18/8/8
post age and racial:
7/6/16/21/9/9

Sure, he gets -4 to init relative to someone who had a 14, but he has 16 con and 21 int.

You don't fucking need polymorph for the wizard not to give a fuck about strength, dexterity, wisdom, or charisma.

[Lord Psychodin]

pardon me for asking this since it seems you're circling over and over to a point I can't see yet, but who in their right minds thinks a wizard with a Con score of an 8 is okay when polymorph does not increase HP? I've been playing a 3.0/some 3.5 game for over 3 years now, and honestly having just gotten to level 15, even with all of my defenses having a decent Con and stretching for extra HP when I could really made a difference. (14 consitution, 16 after level 6 with a +2 item, 18 after level 10 from a +4 item, and then 2/caster level from Heart of Earth. currently sitting at 105 HP and 30 temporary every day and I've gone down to 40 or less with other defenses required too, if you're wondering how much.)

[NineInchNall]

Polymorph changes your hp in 3.5. There was wording in the 3.0 version of the spell text that specifically prevented the HP change (see the most current wild shape version for similar wording). However, this led to ludicrous abuses.

[Jacob_Orlove]

I like the grid system for setting up stats: http://invisiblecastle.com/stats/grid/

Basically, you get a 3 by 3 grid, with str/dex/con along the top and int/wis/cha along the side. Then you pick which numbers will go to which stats, but each stat can only use numbers from its own row/column, and you can't reuse a number. So, each stat has 3 possible choices, and each number can only be assigned to one of two possible stats.

This system works best when you don't have a particular character concept pre-planned, because you are constrained as to what scores can go where.

You can use whatever rolling system you want to generate the initial 9 scores, whether that's 4d6 drop lowest, straight 3d6, 1d6+12, or whatever.

You can combine this with Frank's method by having everyone roll a grid and allowing people to use any rolled grid. If you allow that, the MAD characters can pick the grid with the highest overall value, while the SAD caster-types will be forced to pick grids that have at least one high number available for their chosen stat

What I like best about this method is that it offers a fair bit of player choice, but you don't get to just rank your stats in descending order and assign your stats in a corresponding manner. When people can rearrange their rolls in any fashion you just get worlds where no Wizard is charismatic and no Paladin is intelligent.