Dresden Files RPG

[Korwin]

Anyone got it?
Opinions?

(I got it, but I think I'm too much of an fanboy to spot the not so optimal rules. And I'm still reading the rules...)

Preorder - allmost finished PDF's for download

[Avoraciopoctules]

I had the opportunity to look at a beta PDF of Your Story. I'm seeing a number of appealing things in the character and city creation rules. If someone follows all the instructions making their character they'll have a definite reason to adventure, preexisting relationships and reasons to work with the others, and a backstory everyone contributed some things to that doesn't take up pages and pages.

[Lich-Loved]

If someone follows all the instructions making their character they'll have a definite reason to adventure, preexisting relationships and reasons to work with the others, and a backstory everyone contributed some things to that doesn't take up pages and pages.

Would you guess that this process could be extrapolated to other games (like D&D)? It sounds very interesting, Can you describe it in more detail?

[Korwin]

http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/wp-conte ... Sheets.pdf

There are five Phases (more detail on the Char sheet)

1. Background: Where did you come from?
2. Rising Conflict: What shaped you?
3. The Story: What was your first adventure?
4. Guest Star: Whose Path Have You Crossed?
5. Guest Star Redux: Who Else’s Path Have You Crossed?

For each Phase you get/choose one Aspekt. Those are very important later on.

Interesting are Phase 3-5.
After every Player has written down his first Adventure, the Players trade those stories. (random or every Player gives his right player his story, takes the storie from the left, doesnt really matter).

Now you have the story of another player, you write down (at Phase 4) whose story it was, who else was there and how did you help that Char.

You tell the other Player how you helped him an he writes it down on his Char. sheet in Phase 3. You write in your Phase 3 how another player helped you.

Phase 5 is the same, preferable with other Player combinations.

[Jacob_Orlove]

There are a couple other games that use the Fate/FUDGE engine. Spirit of the Century is one.

Their main website is here, it has links to the Dresden stuff.

The rules are generally solid, for more narrative style play. If you like D&D/wargame style tactical combat, you may be disappointed.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I perused the PDF some more, and I'm seeing enough interesting stuff that I decided to preorder the game. Since I refuse to get a credit card and do online transactions, this meant going to an actual physical store and handing them a wad of cash.

I saw an interesting announcement on the website for the store within walking distance of the library I volunteer at every Friday:
http://www.endgameoakland.com/2010/03/2 ... 0-minicon/
And I completed the transaction a few hours ago.

So now I've got a CD with legitimate versions of the near-complete book PDFs on it. I just finished compressing the folder and copying them to my USB drive. I'll email them to the rest of my RPG group, and I expect Akula will pick up on any obvious problems much sooner than I will.

EDIT: Gah. Even compressed it is about 90 MB. Maybe I'll just stick the beta PDFs on Mediafire and email the links out.

[Korwin]

Thaumaturgy needs more example/guidelines/whatever...

[Akula]

Okay, there are problems. But hey, you could guess that. The real question is how much do the problems detract from the worth of the game. In my (humble) opinion, a lot. Enough that I would not buy the game. I say this as someone who never read the books, and just got a lot of them spoiled for me. The system is rules light, but I cannot help comparing it to the other rules light system I have been exposed to recently; I was more impressed by the other. In part because that game was 16 pages total, and this one is almost 500. I haven't read all 500 pages so this is an initial critique.

Fate: This is like essence. If it hits zero you become an NPC, and any special thing you have lowers it. I'm not even kidding, being able to fly a plane better, and also being able to snipe people with a gun will cost you as much as a limited ability to cast spells.

Template: So the game starts out with some wet flatulence, you have to pick a template off of a narrow list. This costs you fate points, variable amounts depending on the template. This doesn't matter, because everyone will choose Wizard. Wizard is the best because instead of getting a narrow list of things your supernatural abilities can do, you instead get a few limiting factors and huge possibilities. They also say that you can customize your template pretty well once you start to hit 8-10 fate to spend. This is a lie. The only template you can customize is in that range is a sorcerer or wizard. Because the ability to cast all forms of magic costs 6 and the upgrades cost 1 each. If you want to be inhumanly fast that is 2. Also want to be inhumanly strong? Another 2. Tough? 2 more. All of the non-spellcasting upgrades nickel and dime you straight into NPCdom. Especially considering that you have to get a bullshit charge just to get access to these things.

High concept: Make your character unique in 2 or 3 words. If you took a template that required a certain concept (they all do) then you write that with an adjective if you feel daring. This is your character's primary aspect and I have the same problem with it as I have with all the others, too short and lacking in description for it to be clear when it works and when it doesn't. You will argue with your GM, a lot.

Aspects, as have already been mentioned, are a huge part of your character. The problem is (at least for me) that they are also really, really, vague. Argument city, here we come. Plus this needs a certain minimum skill or finesse from the DM, because the easiest way of getting fate points (temporary) in play is to have an aspect cause trouble for you. They also reduce your character to a few words.

Skills: An ass shaped cake. These follow an advancement system where you can only have as many skills at higher levels as you have at lower levels. So if you have one skill at +5 you also need at least one skill at +4, +3, +2, and +1. This is useful during character generation if you don't want specialist characters, but they keep it with advancement. Given advancement's slow pace, this means that you will never improve your starting skills. Fixed easily enough by dropping the frame work when play begins.

Advancement: Glaciers outrun Dresden Files characters. You better like the character you start with, because that will be all you get for a long time. Basically, it comes down to milestones. With characters getting nothing unless a lot of progress is made in the story. Some of the books in the book series are described as not enough to qualify for the best milestone. Most campaigns will not last long enough to see material advancement of your characters.

The world: The world is filled with NPCs who are better than you. Like the forgotten realms and the godspell campaign settings from DnD mash into one clusterfuck of PCs never mattering. I lost count of the number on NPCs in the "Our World" book with 19 or more fate cost on abilities. Effectively out of the reach of even the most powerful starting characters long term ambitions. There are also many NPCs which have a little note in the margin, "If you see this guy, run!" So, if you want to interact with the NPCs in the books, you will have to have solved a major problem in your city 6 fucking times. Which will put you solidly in the low tier of NPC power. So if you wanted to tell stories involving Harry Dresden or the Wardens, you need to adjust your expectations. Which kinda stops what is supposed to be one of the game's selling points in it's tracks. You can game here, it just wont be against the big movers and shakers in the setting, ever.

Supernatural: The authors cannot decide if they want refresh cost to be based on game balance or on flavor. On the game balance side of things, mortal abilities cost refresh even though they would logically not impact your humanity or free will in any way. But they do make you better, and that is something that should be paid for. No real argument from me. But, then they have you losing points for having the ability to feed on blood. This is a drawback, because any time you kill a person (and you need to constantly make checks to avoid that) with the ability you become an instant NPC. But it would logically impact your free will because you are now beholden to blood hunger.

I'll look more at this and put up more thoughts. But right now, I suggest that if you want to play a Dresdenverse game, adapt the flavor to aWoD and save yourself $100. This game may be fun to play, but it is not worth buying, especially for a denner.

[Mask_De_H]

Eh, I love the FATE system, but Advancement through Supernatural is pure ass. The template system is a shitload of fuck too.

That's incredibly disappointing, because SotC/FATE 3.0 is pretty clean and doesn't have that extra chaff that displeases you. What, pray tell , is the 16 page rules-light game though?

[Avoraciopoctules]

I believe he was referring to this:

http://www.onesevendesign.com/ladyblack ... ckbird.pdf

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51046

[Korwin]

Template: So the game starts out with some wet flatulence, you have to pick a template off of a narrow list. This costs you fate points, variable amounts depending on the template. This doesn't matter, because everyone will choose Wizard. Wizard is the best because instead of getting a narrow list of things your supernatural abilities can do, you instead get a few limiting factors and huge possibilities. They also say that you can customize your template pretty well once you start to hit 8-10 fate to spend. This is a lie. The only template you can customize is in that range is a sorcerer or wizard. Because the ability to cast all forms of magic costs 6 and the upgrades cost 1 each. If you want to be inhumanly fast that is 2. Also want to be inhumanly strong? Another 2. Tough? 2 more. All of the non-spellcasting upgrades nickel and dime you straight into NPCdom. Especially considering that you have to get a bullshit charge just to get access to these things.

There's also Sponsored Magic (which is cheaper), but on the whole I cant disagree.

Skills: An ass shaped cake. These follow an advancement system where you can only have as many skills at higher levels as you have at lower levels. So if you have one skill at +5 you also need at least one skill at +4, +3, +2, and +1. This is useful during character generation if you don't want specialist characters, but they keep it with advancement. Given advancement's slow pace, this means that you will never improve your starting skills. Fixed easily enough by dropping the frame work when play begins.

Makes notes.

Advancement: Glaciers outrun Dresden Files characters. You better like the character you start with, because that will be all you get for a long time. Basically, it comes down to milestones. With characters getting nothing unless a lot of progress is made in the story. Some of the books in the book series are described as not enough to qualify for the best milestone. Most campaigns will not last long enough to see material advancement of your characters.

Definitly a problem for my group.
I thought of scratching the Minor Milestones. After each session an Medium Milestone and at the end of the BBEG an Major.

The world: The world is filled with NPCs who are better than you. Like the forgotten realms and the godspell campaign settings from DnD mash into one clusterfuck of PCs never mattering. I lost count of the number on NPCs in the "Our World" book with 19 or more fate cost on abilities.

Well its the Who's Who of the books, but

Equal Opposition: Use a main NPC with powers equal to the group’s total spent refresh on powers.

Not shure how that works out in Gameplay.

Supernatural: The authors cannot decide if they want refresh cost to be based on game balance or on flavor. On the game balance side of things, mortal abilities cost refresh even though they would logically not impact your humanity or free will in any way. But they do make you better, and that is something that should be paid for. No real argument from me. But, then they have you losing points for having the ability to feed on blood. This is a drawback, because any time you kill a person (and you need to constantly make checks to avoid that) with the ability you become an instant NPC. But it would logically impact your free will because you are now beholden to blood hunger.

Nitpicking, thats only a Problem for Red Court Infected.
But if you follow the events of the books, I would advise against playing one anyway...

I'll look more at this and put up more thoughts. But right now, I suggest that if you want to play a Dresdenverse game, adapt the flavor to aWoD and save yourself $100. This game may be fun to play, but it is not worth buying, especially for a denner.

Waiting

[Akula]

So far, favorite thing to throw on a character; Physical Immunity, Magic. Stacked catch is at +5 (+2 from only protecting against one thing, +2 because "not magic" is common as shit, +1 because it probably not be something that needed to be found out through experience.) so total cost is only -3. Which is as much as the other guy paid to get the magic to blast you. Should probably get hit with a GM veto.

I'm really underwhelmed by the options for some of the supernatural types. The primarily NPC nevernever powers get way more space than the likely PC faith powers. You seriously don't get that much in the way of options unless you are a *sigh* sorcerer or wizard.

I think that playing a red court infected should be well supported by the rules. Keep in mind that the disgusting and depraved "emotional vampire" white court allows full vamps as a PC option. The red court infected is someone fighting to overcome a past addiction, trauma, or whatever. While struggling to remain human. These aren't the vampires. These are the people who are lucky enough and strong enough to resist the urge to feed. A lot of people would want to play that. And the vampire wars thing kinda rings hollow against the full WC vamps being allowed in (given that they are neutral in a war where one side has threatened the world and used biological weapons). But RC infected get a long rain of piss dripping on their heads.

Speaking of player options, the books cannot suck the sidhe knights dicks hard enough. The template is cheap and has a range of reasonably badass things attached to it. Plus fluff paints them as unstoppable badasses that kick so much ass they need shoe polish specifically made to remove the smell of buttocks. So being one might be an excuse to get away with a bevy of shit depending on your GM. I would rate it as a little bit worse than being a wizard. With the potential to be really awesome if your GM believes the Our World power classifications.

Again, I'm still reading and will have more later.

[Korwin]

Speaking of player options, the books cannot suck the sidhe knights dicks hard enough. The template is cheap

I prefer the Changeling template (cheaper than Sidhe Knights, but you can get all the nice thinks a Sidhe Knight get, and there are more than 2) and you can combine it with the Wizard-template at Char-Gen.

[Akula]

Easier access to Item of Power makes the Sidhe Knight cheaper all around.

[Korwin]

Apparently, the main difference between an Magic Item and an Item of Power is:
If you can make it with Item Creation Rules its an Magic Item, if not its an Item of Power.

That means you can still make it, but you have to use the Item of Power Rules. So if you have the Wizard Template, you can make an Item of Power.

[edit]
Enchanted Items Patch - Important, holy crap!
Some Guidelines for Thaumaturgical Shapeshifting?

[Korwin]

Template: So the game starts out with some wet flatulence, you have to pick a template off of a narrow list. This costs you fate points, variable amounts depending on the template. This doesn't matter, because everyone will choose Wizard. Wizard is the best because instead of getting a narrow list of things your supernatural abilities can do, you instead get a few limiting factors and huge possibilities. They also say that you can customize your template pretty well once you start to hit 8-10 fate to spend. This is a lie. The only template you can customize is in that range is a sorcerer or wizard. Because the ability to cast all forms of magic costs 6 and the upgrades cost 1 each. If you want to be inhumanly fast that is 2. Also want to be inhumanly strong? Another 2. Tough? 2 more. All of the non-spellcasting upgrades nickel and dime you straight into NPCdom. Especially considering that you have to get a bullshit charge just to get access to these things.

After a little more time with the Rulebook, I have to disagree.
A Focused Practioner can be frightfully powerfull at refresh 8-10
Especially an Item Crafter.

Magic is very powerfull, but it pays off to specialice.

[Korwin]

Here my Houserules (those I wrote down), Opinions?
Houserules:

---

Transformation Magic When you (Self-)Transform into another thing you loose all your Powers and Stunts.
Unless you buy them back into the Ritual.

The basic difficulty for transforming is based on the True Shapeshift Power (-4 Refresh = 8 Shifts)
(Reason, while one Ritual can only change you into one form, you can have multiple Rituals. Thats True Shapeshift.)

Since you may want to end the spell before sunrise, we add another shift.

So the basic Self-Transforming spell is an Complexity Ritual 9.

So lets say our Wizards want to transform into an Wolf. With the Lvl. 9 Ritual he can take the form off an Wolf, but he is unfamiliar with the body.
He incorporates another Power into the Ritual: Beast Change for the Skill Shuffle.
Thats another Refresh (Total of 5) or 2 Shifts of Power. = Complexity of 11

After an Encounter with an Hellhound our Wizards want to change into one.
A Hellhound is an -7 Refresh creature with the -4 from True Shapechange that would be -11. To much for our Submerged Wizard (10 Refresh Total, max. -9 Refresh)
He researches further and cuts the Pack Instinct out and the Stunt Unflappable (Presence), that would bring the Refresh to -9, but then he realises he needs still the Beast Change Power...
He cuts the other Stunt since he overlaps a little with Echoes of the Beast.
Complexity of the Ritual (9*2)+1 = 19

Later in the Campaign after the Wizard got 7 new Refreshes he bought True ShapeChange (-4) and the Modular Abilities (-3).
So he can Shapechange into an Wolf on the fly (with all his Powers intact), but anything more complicated (like an bird) he needs still to cast an Ritual.

He could change into an Bird with allmost all his Powers intact with an Ritual.
Example:
-3 Evocation
-3 Thaumaturgy
-1 Wizards Sight
-2 Refinement
-1 Diminuitive Size
-1 Wings
-1 Beast Change
-4 True Shapechange
-----------------------
-16

He could'nt use his True Shapechange, because this is the Ritual Version. He would need to end the spell first.
The Complexity of the Ritual would be (16*2)+1 = 33

With two more Refresh spent on Modular Abilities he wouldn't need the Ritual (And it would be much faster).


IMHO with this you could play an Junior Wizards who grows into an Powerfull Shapechanger.
It's flexible, but you are at least 4 Refresh points behind the Specialist.

---

The same thing happens when you transform another being (+you need to exceed the stress-box + if the target takes consequences those)

---

Summoning The Summoning Rituals (Demons or Magical Constructs) Complexity is Refresh cost x 2.
(Containment and Binding Ritual is be still based of Conviction)

---

[krainboltgreene]

Feel the need to point out that 80% of this RPG is just FATE3, or Spirit of the Century, so nothing new except the magic stuff.

[Longes]

The world: The world is filled with NPCs who are better than you. Like the forgotten realms and the godspell campaign settings from DnD mash into one clusterfuck of PCs never mattering. I lost count of the number on NPCs in the "Our World" book with 19 or more fate cost on abilities. Effectively out of the reach of even the most powerful starting characters long term ambitions. There are also many NPCs which have a little note in the margin, "If you see this guy, run!" So, if you want to interact with the NPCs in the books, you will have to have solved a major problem in your city 6 fucking times. Which will put you solidly in the low tier of NPC power. So if you wanted to tell stories involving Harry Dresden or the Wardens, you need to adjust your expectations. Which kinda stops what is supposed to be one of the game's selling points in it's tracks. You can game here, it just wont be against the big movers and shakers in the setting, ever.

I've been reading the books since I got invited into a DFRPG game, and holy shit this can't be stressed enough. Harry Dresden's high concept is "Champion of Underdogs and Longshot Causes" while the bastard has refresh cost of 20 and a boatload of skills. The absolute maximum you can start at is 10, and you are actually going to start at 8 in most games. There's nothing "underdog" about Harry Dresden.

[Maxus]

Is high concept something they stress in the Dresden RPG books? A tagline they give him or something?

Because I would seriously call him "Peter Parker with Magic and No Secret Identity"

[Username17]

You will never be as good as even third string NPCs in this game. However, since it is a FATE hack, it succumbs to the "Anything Goes Martial Arts Cooking" school of game design, where being a good character is mostly a matter of specializing the fuck out of something and then convincing the other people at the table that you can use your specialist abilities for the task at hand. A refresh of 20 is much more than you'll ever have, but you can get 12 extra fate points just by hogging the spotlight talking about your character's relationship problems and bad days at work.

If you spend enough table time moping about your character's sexual insecurities and are good enough at bullshitting everything back to your earth magic (or whatever), then you can hit at the level of high end NPCs almost from game 1. The game punishes you severely for trying to have breadth. You lose the same amount of refresh for your fifth trick that you will almost never use as you do for your first trick that you use all the time. Being One Punch Man is totally supported, being a Jack of All Trades is not.

-Username17

[Prak]

Is high concept something they stress in the Dresden RPG books? A tagline they give him or something?

Because I would seriously call him "Peter Parker with Magic and No Secret Identity"

To some extent, yeah. High Concept is an Aspect, and Aspects are what you use to get and spend your plot currency, Fate Points. I played Dresden Files once, years ago, and worked with my GM to create a custom template. To some extent it worked out as an eastern dragon shifter, with the explanation being that the dragon was sealed into human form (something like Shendu in Jackie Chan Adventures). If I recall correctly, my high concept was "I'm a goddamned dragon" and it came in handy several times.

A refresh of 20 is much more than you'll ever have, but you can get 12 extra fate points just by hogging the spotlight talking about your character's relationship problems and bad days at work.

Or by invoking your own trouble aspect in a suitably cinematic way that endangers you for the good of the party. My sealed-dragon character's trouble aspect was "sometimes the pants don't fit," meaning that occasionally the seal would break and he'd take his dragon form unintentionally. I invoked this when a mook fired a rocket at the party to basically shift as an immediate action (in D&D terms) and protect the party with my fire immunity and armor. It cost me 1 fate point and won me eight, I think.

It's very MTP-ish, and more of a story game than a D&D crunch fest, but it was enjoyable.

[hyzmarca]

I've been reading the books since I got invited into a DFRPG game, and holy shit this can't be stressed enough. Harry Dresden's high concept is "Champion of Underdogs and Longshot Causes" while the bastard has refresh cost of 20 and a boatload of skills. The absolute maximum you can start at is 10, and you are actually going to start at 8 in most games. There's nothing "underdog" about Harry Dresden.

Which is a problem with the power level. Harry in the books is a moderately powerful wizard who is able to punch above his weight class by taking crazy risks that no one would expect him to take, but would still get asshanded in seconds by half the people he deals with on a regular basis. And as he grows more powerful, this gets worse, not better. He goes from medium fish in small pond to medium fish in an ocean full of megalodons. Santa Claus tries to kill him at one point. That's underdog territory, there.

The game expects you to play street level characters in a series where the power level scales to "destroy galaxies with a thought" and beyond.

Basically, it suffers from the problem of a lot of licensed rpgs. It wants to let you play as characters in that setting, but it doesn't want to let you break the plot of the books, which means minimizing your interaction with canon elements. This is, I think a flawed concern.
Dresden Files has room for play at many levels, from street to cosmic. It has Justice League scenarios where gods team up with mortals to kick ass. If you keep people at street level in order to avoid screwing with the book plot, you miss out on all of that.

It doesn't help that the books have moved on since the game was written and a lot of stuff has changed, and a lot of new information about the setting has been revealed.

That being said, Dresden Files as a setting is one where mortals can hang out with gods, because higher power levels rarely mean better defenses. Most bag guys die when you shoot them, and those that don't either have severe limitations or crippling banes. I mean, as stated, the Summer Knight has some awesome stats in game. In story, he died when he slipped and fell down a flight of stairs. Bob kind of plays up how you'd want to blow up the building he's in rather than fight him head on, but he cracked his skull open after slipping on an icy step. Many of the really powerful characters have human durability under layers of active defenses, and will do down like anyone else if caught off guard.

Anyway, I'd say that a wizard's restrictions are pretty limiting. Mind reading and mind control are incredibly broken, and it's one thing that wizards can't do without turning into Darth Vader. Playing a whampire that does a little bit of extra mind magic on top of their normal emotion manipulation is very devastating, especially since most wizards have crap mental defenses due to the Council strongly discouraging any attempt to train in that area. This doesn't change until after Turn Coat, when they do a 180 on their policy and mental defense training becomes highly recommended.

[Dogbert]

A game about magic detectives where the game slows to a grinding halt every time the players want to DO MAGIC... try to wrap your brain around that.

Imagine Mage's magic system.... now split the magic rules across three different chapters of the book, now have every use of magic take at least three rolls, now eat the most toxic dinner you can think of and shit all over the book in a way that the shit will remain fresh and smelly every time you want to grab the book, even if a hundred years have passed.



Now overprice the book so even the pdf costs $50.00.

And don't even get me started on the part where the book wants to trick you into thinking playing a muggle is a perfectly valid choice.

That's Dresden Files.

[Judging__Eagle]

A refresh of 20 is much more than you'll ever have, but you can get 12 extra fate points just by hogging the spotlight talking about your character's relationship problems and bad days at work.

Or by invoking your own trouble aspect in a suitably cinematic way that endangers you for the good of the party. My sealed-dragon character's trouble aspect was "sometimes the pants don't fit," meaning that occasionally the seal would break and he'd take his dragon form unintentionally. I invoked this when a mook fired a rocket at the party to basically shift as an immediate action (in D&D terms) and protect the party with my fire immunity and armor. It cost me 1 fate point and won me eight, I think.

It's very MTP-ish, and more of a story game than a D&D crunch fest, but it was enjoyable.

Reminds me of how easy it is to "break" the bonus dice you can get in Danger Patrol by invoking "[a ridiculous, and story-breaking, apocalypse]" as a potential fail state. Specifically because such a suggested fail state will give the most bonus dice; while simultaneously being the least likely (and last) of the failures that will occur when the player does have some dice land on a "1".