Why Is It Okay To Hate Openly Gay People?

[Cielingcat]

That's not odd at all. The religious right has sufficiently demonized the word "homosexual" that it now carries a completely negative meaning.

Literally, when people think of a "homosexual" they think of a boogey-man predator who wants to rape their children. "Gay" and "lesbian" still refer to real people.

[Lago PARANOIA]

People hate flaming gay men because they are gay. That is the only possible reason.

I think this statement loses some of the meaning of the nature of homophobia. A 'straight-acting' gay or a gay man who conforms to a manlier stereotype (such as gym bunny or cowboy) will receive less revulsion than the camp gay type.

It's tragic, but the gay community's strategy of presenting gays as normal and worshipping at the feet of the Straight Gay stereotype is actually working. It sucks that they have to do that at all, but they can either choose to work uphill to combat homophobia or combat homophobia and sexism. But that's what happens, man. Gay rights will happen waaaaay before sexual equality will.

[Cielingcat]

So /tg/'s transgender threads have taught me something.

If you have an opinion on lgbt (especially t) issues, and you are not the specific letter for which you have an opinion, your opinion is almost 100% of the time going to be not just factually wrong on the major issues, but it will display a complete and utter lack of understanding of anything you are talking about.

Also, any opinion based on "common sense" will be wrong. Every time. I think I have a 100% track record for that being wrong.


The only acceptable opinion is an informed one.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Oftentimes I wonder if the Religious Right picked homosexuality as their next crusade because it's a combination of a 'safe' thing to pick on and the fact that it picks at some deep-seated revulsion at the subversion of traditional gender roles. After all, if they decided to crusade against adultery or divorce the leaders might run into the fact that they personally will become the thing they hate.

[Akula]

They have that problem with homosexuality too.

[Cielingcat]

Oftentimes I wonder if the Religious Right picked homosexuality as their next crusade because it's a combination of a 'safe' thing to pick on and the fact that it picks at some deep-seated revulsion at the subversion of traditional gender roles. After all, if they decided to crusade against adultery or divorce the leaders might run into the fact that they personally will become the thing they hate.

They seem to have that problem anyway though.

i c wut u did thar

[Kaelik]

So /tg/'s transgender threads have taught me something.

If you have an opinion on lgbt (especially t) issues, and you are not the specific letter for which you have an opinion, your opinion is almost 100% of the time going to be not just factually wrong on the major issues, but it will display a complete and utter lack of understanding of anything you are talking about.

Also, any opinion based on "common sense" will be wrong. Every time. I think I have a 100% track record for that being wrong.


The only acceptable opinion is an informed one.

Alternatively, you might know how you personally feel, but be significantly less informed than someone else scientifically, and not notice because you are a biased ignorant shithead. And those other things might be more important than your feelings.

You should probably not go around talking about how people who aren't personally transgender shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion. Because those people who think you are a freak and deserve to die don't care if you think they should be allowed to have an opinion, and statistically speaking, more people who are on the "transgendered side" of any issue are going to not be transgendered than are.

[Lago PARANOIA]

But they have a much easier time shunning people who violate that taboo.

The problem is that if you raise a huge stink about adultery and you make it your next Crusade but then you have a large portion of the movers and shakers engaging in the sin, you're in a pickle. Either you accept the adultery and look like hypocrites or you shun the adulterers and lose people in powerful positions.

And yes, about 10% of the population is primarily homosexual in orientation (or somesuch) so it's actually not a safe crusade at all. But when you launch a crusade for heterosexuality you're also launching a crusade to worship traditional gender roles (unlike one against adultery)--and that shit is ingrained so deep that it's like printing your own money.

[Cielingcat]

Alternatively, you might know how you personally feel, but be significantly less informed than someone else scientifically, and not notice because you are a biased ignorant shithead. And those other things might be more important than your feelings.

Fyi, you may have missed this in your rush to be a jackass, but I said "The only acceptable opinion is an informed one."

[Kaelik]

Alternatively, you might know how you personally feel, but be significantly less informed than someone else scientifically, and not notice because you are a biased ignorant shithead. And those other things might be more important than your feelings.

Fyi, you may have missed this in your rush to be a jackass, but I said "The only acceptable opinion is an informed one."

fyi, you may have missed this in your rush to be a retard, you claimed that only transgenders can be informed about transgender.

That is both wrong and counterproductive.

[IGTN]

Alternatively, you might know how you personally feel, but be significantly less informed than someone else scientifically, and not notice because you are a biased ignorant shithead. And those other things might be more important than your feelings.

Fyi, you may have missed this in your rush to be a jackass, but I said "The only acceptable opinion is an informed one."

fyi, you may have missed this in your rush to be a retard, you claimed that only transgenders can be informed about transgender.

That is both wrong and counterproductive.

She didn't; there was an "almost" in there.

Almost all cisgendered people are badly misinformed about transgender issues. That's not actually a controversial statement among people who aren't badly misinformed about trans issues.

[Cielingcat]

I know your whole shtick is to be a gigantic asshole for no reason, but I didn't actually say that. Like, really, I am going to quote what I said because you don't seem to know how to read, and will even bold some convenient words I used so that I wouldn't be making an absolute statement!

If you have an opinion on lgbt (especially t) issues, and you are not the specific letter for which you have an opinion, your opinion is almost 100% of the time going to be not just factually wrong on the major issues, but it will display a complete and utter lack of understanding of anything you are talking about.

And then there was that thing I quoted before, which had the same message.

So let me recap my position. It is that if you don't know what you're talking about, shut the fuck up about it. And if you're wondering, this topic here, this is something I know about.

[Crissa]

Yes, I personally might not know much about lesbians. And someone who isn't, might know more. That's a given.

But that has very little to do with how misinformed the large majority of people are about gender and sexuality, let alone some type they are not.

Don't be an ass, Kaelik, there is no reason for this argument except to be an ass. Nothing can be learned from it.

-Crissa

[Kaelik]

It's technically true that almost all people don't know about X. Where X is anything.

So it is technically true that almost all none transgendered people are uninformed about transgender issues, or even what being transgendered is.

However, it's equally true, that almost all transgendered people are uninformed about transgender issues and what being transgendered is.

And Ceiling Cat implied that this is not true.

Further, as I said, telling all those people who know shit all about transgender anything but are liberal enough to support your right to do whatever to fuck right off and stop having an opinion is a good way to end up losing support.

[Cynic]

It's technically true that almost all people don't know about X. Where X is anything.

So it is technically true that almost all none transgendered people are uninformed about transgender issues, or even what being transgendered is.

However, it's equally true, that almost all transgendered people are uninformed about transgender issues and what being transgendered is.

And Ceiling Cat implied that this is not true.

Further, as I said, telling all those people who know shit all about transgender anything but are liberal enough to support your right to do whatever to fuck right off and stop having an opinion is a good way to end up losing support.

Kaelik: this didn't make much sense.
elaborate...

[Kaelik]

It's technically true that almost all people don't know about X. Where X is anything.

So it is technically true that almost all none transgendered people are uninformed about transgender issues, or even what being transgendered is.

However, it's equally true, that almost all transgendered people are uninformed about transgender issues and what being transgendered is.

And Ceiling Cat implied that this is not true.

Further, as I said, telling all those people who know shit all about transgender anything but are liberal enough to support your right to do whatever to fuck right off and stop having an opinion is a good way to end up losing support.

Kaelik: this didn't make much sense.
elaborate...

People in general are stupid and misinformed, even and almost especially regarding things that they like.

Pick a random sampling of people, ask them about D&D balance, and they are going to be fucking wrong. But if you pick a random sampling of people who really enjoy D&D, and play it a lot, they don't get much smarter, they still think stupid shit.

Likewise, pick random people, ask them about transgender, and they will be wrong, but if you pick a random sampling of transgender people, they will still be wrong.

Instead of "What the Fuck is that?" You might get "I have the Soul of a X." But it's still wrong either way.

Ceiling cat has never given me the impression that he knows dick all about transgender anything, mostly because he pretty much only says things to the effect of "You people just don't understand me!" With you people occasionally being people in general (his most recent post) and sometimes specifically stupid conservatives, stupid religious people ect.

So I have no idea whether or not Ceiling Cat is actually informed or not, because he doesn't say anything of any meaning.

So when he goes on a "you don't understand!" rant, and even adds something stupid like "and since you don't pretend I don't exist and don't vote in elections with transgender issues" It comes off as pretty stupid.

I decided to point out that he is predisposed to think that X don't understand him, because X doesn't understand shit. But Y also doesn't understand him, and in any case, telling people to stop having opinions is fucking retarded, because only people who agreed with you will actually stop having opinions.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Oftentimes I wonder if the Religious Right picked homosexuality as their next crusade because it's a combination of a 'safe' thing to pick on and the fact that it picks at some deep-seated revulsion at the subversion of traditional gender roles. After all, if they decided to crusade against adultery or divorce the leaders might run into the fact that they personally will become the thing they hate.

They seem to have that problem anyway though.

i c wut u did thar

http://www.squidi.net/comic/aaa/view.ph ... ep=1&id=16

[Username17]

I'm going to provisionally agree with Kaelik. Ths:

If you have an opinion on lgbt (especially t) issues, and you are not the specific letter for which you have an opinion, your opinion is almost 100% of the time going to be not just factually wrong on the major issues, but it will display a complete and utter lack of understanding of anything you are talking about.

Is not only bullshit, it's actually harmful. Saying that 90% of the population is almost 100% factually wrong and should not have their opinions listened to is marginalizing bullshit. It's marginalizing to the transgendered people for fuck's sake.

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

People in general are stupid and misinformed, even and almost especially regarding things that they like.

We might not agree on much, but I'm pretty sure that I can get behind you on this 100%.

If you have an opinion on lgbt (especially t) issues, and you are not the specific letter for which you have an opinion, your opinion is almost 100% of the time going to be not just factually wrong on the major issues, but it will display a complete and utter lack of understanding of anything you are talking about.

Also, any opinion based on "common sense" will be wrong. Every time. I think I have a 100% track record for that being wrong.

The only acceptable opinion is an informed one.

Could you perhaps elaborate on this? I'm a little confused. When you say "opinion," do you mean "belief"? Because opinions can't be wrong, but beliefs can. ("The sun is blue" is a belief; "the sun is pretty" is an opinion.)

[Cielingcat]

Allies do not get to have "opinions" on people that differ from the facts or from their lived experiences. You can support people, but when you start dictating how things "really" are you can just get the fuck out.

Maybe I phrased things a little too broadly, but honestly, if people get turned off of supporting lgbt rights because they don't get to tell trans people that they're mutilating themselves-which is the argument that brought me to say this in the first place-then they were never allies in the first place and we don't want them.

Like, if someone's "opinion" on evolution or whatever is that there are "two sides to the argument" you'd tell them to fuck right off. Because that is the only real response to that, because when someone makes that argument it's rarely even worth it to try to teach them better.

[Username17]

Allies do not get to have "opinions" on people that differ from the facts or from their lived experiences. You can support people, but when you start dictating how things "really" are you can just get the fuck out.

Maybe I phrased things a little too broadly, but honestly, if people get turned off of supporting lgbt rights because they don't get to tell trans people that they're mutilating themselves-which is the argument that brought me to say this in the first place-then they were never allies in the first place and we don't want them.

Like, if someone's "opinion" on evolution or whatever is that there are "two sides to the argument" you'd tell them to fuck right off. Because that is the only real response to that, because when someone makes that argument it's rarely even worth it to try to teach them better.

Um... fuck you?

The suicide rate amongst transsexual people is very high. One study even reported a rate as high as 30%, although that is probably very overreported because you get much higher rates of self-reporting in suicide notes than in the living population. But people who actually get gender reassignment surgery have problems too. Buyer's remorse on that is incredibly high.

The number of patients who kill themselves after sex reassignment therapy is as high as 18% in some studies. Requests for reversals are common. And a majority of people who undergo surgery report no change in their psychological well being. And unfortunately, there aren't any good controlled studies on these procedures, because the numbers of patients are very low and a lot of the groups doing the procedures are shady as hell.

But it is a major surgery, it does have physical complications, it's not fully reversible, and it isn't fucking magic. Describing it as a "mutilation" may be insensitive, but it's literally fucking true. You're damn right that people should be thinking twice and then thinking again before they get these procedures done, because statistically speaking it isn't really what most of the patients who actually get it "really want" (as measured by self reporting after the fact).

You want to talk about reality? Well, reality is that no one on the planet is actually happy with their meat shell, and there isn't a fucking thing medical science can do to change that. While sex reassignment surgery has a non-zero success rate, its success rate isn't even fifty percent and it makes things worse more than a quarter as often as it makes things any better. So people counseling you to wait and think are right. And you telling them that they were never really your friends for saying so makes you a total fucking asshole.

-Username17

[Cielingcat]

That's... not at all what I said. The people I am complaining about are not counseling people to stop and think-that is what therapists are for. There are saying, quite explicitly in the case, that it is a thing you should never do and the alternative is to wait for a magical form of therapy that cures people of being trans. A therapy that has never worked any of the times its been tried.

People who say "don't get surgery, just deal with who you were born as!" are not counseling me to wait, they are counseling me to do nothing. And doing nothing at best ends in transitioning later in life.

Also, I'm honestly not at all surprised that people who undergo srs commonly report no change in psychological well being, since by the time they can get srs they've almost always already transitioned.

[Psychic Robot]

if people get turned off of supporting lgbt rights because they don't get to tell trans people that they're mutilating themselves-which is the argument that brought me to say this in the first place-then they were never allies in the first place and we don't want them.

I'm a little confused. SRS is a form of mutilation. It fits the dictionary definition of mutilation. Is calling it "mutilation" impolite? Yes, to some degree, as the speaker is probably attempting to evoke an emotionally-charged reaction from the listeners by using such terminology. But, yes, transgender people who have mastectomies or phalloplasty are mutilating themselves.

Is it more aesthetically pleasing to the transgender person? Yes, in the same way that someone with body identity integrity disorder feels that it is more aesthetically pleasing to live life without a limb or three.

Is it acceptable to have the opinion that transgender people shouldn't have SRS? Yes, it is. Because it's an opinion. It might not be politically correct, and transgender people might not agree with it, but that doesn't mean that it's wrong. It's like arguing about whether or not transgenderism should be considered a mental disorder: transgendered people probably feel that they're perfectly normal while much of the rest of society looks at them as being completely abnormal because, let's face it, thinking that you were born in the wrong kind of body is strange.

And yes, I realize that this can very well lead to the argument about whether or not homosexuality should be considered a mental disorder.

[Orion]

PR:

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU

that is all.

Cielingcat-- I never got around to posting in your last thread to wish you my support, so I'll do it now. People of good faith can disagree, and those disagreements can hurt, but please know that we aren't all Roys and PRs.

[God_of_Awesome]

Mutilation

Denotation - Technically true regarding what is done in a sex change surgery.

Conotation - Trannies enter a horrible meat shop to have a butcher hack apart their penis.