The World of Warcraft hate thread.

[Judging__Eagle]

Honestly, some people have the chops for PvP, some people don't.

For me, it's a waste of time. The gear isn't worth the effort that I'd have to go through all over again just to master pvp in an mmo. I did it once in RO, and there it was rewarding to be able to build a lord knight with the exactly right chosen gear to deal with the 'usual' problems that arise in pvp . For WoW.... the population pool is too big to be able to really show your mastery of the game (and, the level dynamics in RO and WoW are very different), the WoW arena rewards aren't good for anything, aside from more pvp. All of the effort spent in arenas is better spent in raids imo.

Playing at pvp is always more stressful, and really, only the best players who are always on the ball are going to thrive in an active, aggressive, pvp environment. Even then, the best ones don't take themselves too seriously. For them, it's just fun.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I enjoyed PvP, but it got old.

Also, I had issues with rogues as a mage. I know that spamming the lowest level Arcane Explosion will unstealth rogues around me, but I get fatigued when I do that. Whereas a rogue can just sit there and wait until I was tired in real life.

However, I tended to be decent at it. Not the greatest, and I was never well-geared for my level, but I could hold my own.

[Cielingcat]

People who have high ratings in Arena are: A) Not Druids. B) Have way too much time on their hands. C) Better computer/connection than I do. D) Better gear than I do. E) Who knows if they have more skill than I do, because their gear and computer pre-arena was still tons better than mine.

I bet if you put out a map of the arena winners and their IP ranges you'd find they correspond to low number of hops.

-Crissa

Druids are amazing in arenas O.o

And while latency certainly affects your ability to compete in high end arena, it is still doable with high latency; one of the people in my guild hit 2300 rather easily, and he lives in Australia! Admittedly, he feels that he's hit a wall trying for 2400 with that much latency. I play with about 200 ms of latency, usually, though it jumps down to 100 or 150 sometimes.

Arenas are also one of the least time consuming portions of WoW. You still have to play a couple hours a week, but it's entirely possible to get Gladiator playing only as much per week as people spend in a single raid night. People rarely do that, though, because the people who do arenas at those levels generally enjoy them enough to want to do them more often.

And Rogue v (frost) Mage has historically been one of the most difficult fights for both sides, though the rogue does have the advantage of getting to decide when the fight is going to start. Currently the frost mage has it easier though.

[Judging__Eagle]

Like Cieling said, Druids are actually over represented, and misrepresented, in Arenas, according to Blizzard developers.

Resto Druid is brutal in Arenas and BGs. In the non-static nature of pvp, being able to deliver instant-cast HoTs (2 types), AoE heals (1 type), and AoE HoTs (1 type); plus three-four other healing abilities, makes Druids really good at pvp.

The ability for a healer to turn any 1-4 other people in a BG into an ongoing kill generator is very funny. Since damage is dealt out, a small bit of healing is what really helps keep group of players in a BG from dying. Just by not dying, they will generate more kills. Healers can usually get lots of HKs vs Deaths in a BG.

[Draco_Argentum]

And while latency certainly affects your ability to compete in high end arena, it is still doable with high latency; one of the people in my guild hit 2300 rather easily, and he lives in Australia! Admittedly, he feels that he's hit a wall trying for 2400 with that much latency. I play with about 200 ms of latency, usually, though it jumps down to 100 or 150 sometimes.

The internet here makes me sad too.

[Crissa]

'Druids are amazing in Arenas'

You mean, one single spec of druids works well in the large groups.

And lots of people who play Druids try to play Arena.

That's like saying Hunters and Rogues are over-represented in Arena, too. Because they have alot of players.

Last season there were only a handful of resto druid in the top ratings, only in five-man. The season before that there was one druid at all in the top ratings.

Ugh.

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

Last season there were only a handful of resto druid in the top ratings, only in five-man. The season before that there was one druid at all in the top ratings.

That's... that's not true at all. Druids have always been the worst healer in 5v5, and the best in 2v2. Last season Druids had a very respectable representation in the top 3v3 comps (3s being the bracket that matters), and currently there are a number of good Druid comps; resto has Warrior/Lock/Druid, Rogue/Lock/Druid, Lock/Shaman/Druid, Mage/Lock/Druid, and Shaman/Warrior/Druid, and that's just from the Arena Junkies top 10 druid teams! There are a bunch more in the whole top 100.

The only season druids did terribly was season 5, and that was entirely due to Death Knights and their Blood Plague disease removing Druid HoT effects with no dispel resistance.

Feral and Balance have a lot fewer comps, though they're working on making them more viable in Cataclysm.


Out of the entire top 100 teams, Druids are present in... 19 of them, which is about what you'd expect.

[Crissa]

Only as a healer, though.

Great! The spec that gets the best gear in PvE also performs the best in Arena. This season. (I might point out that PvP gear has always had one or more pieces in the top of the feral gear ratings for PvE in the last several years.)

It just shows that healer classes are unbalanced in Arena. Just like plate classes used to be.

It's a terrible system.

And yeah, I got the 2v2 healing vs the 5v5 healing reversed, I'm a dummyhead.

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

Healing specs are supposed to be in every 3v3 team. The ideal 3v3 team is 2 dps, 1 healer, and for the most part, that is how it is. Very few 3 dps teams have ever been viable, and I'm okay with that.

Plate classes have also never been unbalanced because they wore plate. Plate has nothing to do with the imbalances that have occurred with death knights and paladins, nor with the power of warriors.

Also, healers wear almost no pve gear.

[Crissa]

The first couple Arena seasons, all plate classes (DeathKnights did not exist yet) did exceptionally well in Arena because they could use high mitigation gear.

After that, things like Frost Armor and Barkskin were kicked up and the severity of the Warrior anti-healing debuff was lowered.

It's irrelevant that PvP healers 'wear no PvE gear'. I didn't say that PvP gear was good PvE healing gear or vice-versa. I did say that entering last season, PvP gear was among the best Feral Tank gear available.

Just because they can't balance healers in PvP doesn't mean that DPS classes are not pretty much sunk in what is nominally their favorite thing to do (kill other people).

There are only four healing specs in the game. There are thirty total specs in the game. That's just stupid.

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

Yes, there are only 4 (actually 5, but Holy doesn't count yet) healing specs. But healers are required on every 3s team by design, so those specs get overrepresented. Also, there are 30 specs, but a lot of those specs don't offer different things-every DK spec, for example, is a dps or tank spec, with each being able to do either. Every rogue spec does melee damage, every hunter spec does ranged damage... Only the specs that actually offer different playstyles have any reason to be viable in arenas. And they are working at making this so in Cataclysm.

Furthermore, the MS debuff has always been at 50%. It is going down to 20% in Cataclysm, but the debuff itself has never been toned down.

And while yes, in season 1 when resilience was introduced, Warrior/Paladin dominated, that was like 3 years ago. I didn't even play during season 1, though.


Really, this is the most balanced season WoW has ever seen. More comps and specs are viable now than ever before; while there are valid complaints that could make the game better, the general consensus among the top players is that it has never been better.

Is your complaint that Feral druids aren't very viable in PvP? They have 2 comps they can run (Kittycleave and rogue/feral gib comps), which is more than they've had in the past. They also can work in 2s as Feral/Disc, which this guy I don't like hit 2400 with last season. Balance is also ridiculous currently, with Starfall able to aoe down entire teams; variations of Owlplay exist in 3s, and they are incredibly useful in 4 dps 5s teams.

When it comes to WoW arena combat and its metagame, I have some experience with it at a rather high level. We're shooting for 2650 by the end of the season for a safe Gladiator title.

[Crissa]

Didn't we have a discussion about trap options? Or options that weren't?

There's no reason all of the trees can't work in PvP. But they don't, so it's stupid.

But I was pointing out that may of the druids in Arena are not there because they're healers, or over represented. They're there because the gear Arena gives is literally superior to that in the PvE game.

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

No one who is past 2200 in arenas is doing it for gear, because there is literally nothing to get past 2200. PvP gear is only superior to PvE gear for PvP, with the exception of a couple Feral pieces-and most of the druids in arenas are resto!

And they are going to try to make every tree work in PvP, actually, but it will take a lot of work from them to do such.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Resto Druids are underpowered" bullshit that's going on in WoW PvP right now. Resto Druids deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself bought a level 80 resto druid on Ebay for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even solo Onyxia.

Hardcore PvP'ers spend years working on a single toon and level it up to a million times to produce the finest PvP characters known to mankind.

Resto Druidss are thrice as sharp as Assassin Rogues and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a rogue can PK, a resto druid can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a resto druid could easily bisect a warrior wearing full Tier 10 with a simple Moonfire I spell.

Ever wonder why The Scourge never bothered conquering Moonglade? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Resto druids and their Healing spells of destruction. Even in the Burning Legion invasion, Demons targeted the men with the resto specs first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying?Resto Druids are simply the best toon that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in WoW. Here is the stat block I propose for Resto Druids:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon) 1d12 Damage 19-20 x4 Crit +2 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon) 2d10 Damage 17-20 x4 Crit +5 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Resto Druids in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Resto Druids need to do more Healing in WoW, see my new stat block.

[ubernoob]

I almost didn't get the katana joke. Almost.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I almost didn't get the katana joke. Almost.

It's an overused joke, but I felt this time it was alright.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Hell has frozen over, and the Count is quoting 4chan memes. I never thought this day would come.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Hell has frozen over, and the Count is quoting 4chan memes. I never thought this day would come.

Are you kidding? A while back I did nothing but serve copypasta of this nature here, on WotC, and on BG for about a week.

[Crissa]

CeilingCat, you seem to think that people can only play one spec? WTF.

No. Ferals suck it up and play Resto get the PvP gear to play PvE Feral.

It's stupid, I know, but that's how it works. The only successful Feral PvPers I know didn't Feral PvP until after they had all the gear from the other paths.

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

So your complaint is that the best in slot feral weapon is the feral weapon from arenas, which is only available as a reward to competent players (2200 or over). 2200 is a rating that is only achievable by roughly 5% of the population, which is about the same numbers as the people who can do hardmode Icecrown Citadel.

Many of the best in slot items for PvP are found only in PvE. It is a matter of design intent that people who participate in both aspects of the game are rewarded for it. You don't need a wrathful weapon to tank as a feral druid; druids are perfectly capable of tanking any level of content without it. It simply gives druids who reach high ratings an alternative to some equivalent weapons.

The only feral druids on my server who do any PvP do nothing but PvE, and PvP solely as feral.

[A Man In Black]

So your complaint is that the best in slot feral weapon is the feral weapon from arenas, which is only available as a reward to competent players (2200 or over). 2200 is a rating that is only achievable by roughly 5% of the population, which is about the same numbers as the people who can do hardmode Icecrown Citadel.

[...]It simply gives druids who reach high ratings an alternative to some equivalent weapons.

Nevertheless, it's grating for someone who tanks as feral to see PVP offer a weapon which is vastly, vastly better for feral tanks than any PVE alternative. It's a reasonable complaint, but it has more to do with generally shitty PVE itemization for tanking feral druids than anything.

[Cielingcat]

Yeah, I'd imagine the trouble there comes from not wanting to create a specific set of leather tanking items when only one half of one spec of one class would make any use of them. So while something like Distant Land might be better for feral dps, feral tanks are stuck with second rate stuff.

[Crissa]

Except, that's not 'one half of one spec'. Ferals are fairly popular because it truly was a different way to play. It's just that Blizzard seems intent on making it infeasible to play with that style.

If you go to any of the Druid boards, you'll find many posts about Ferals PvPing as Resto just so they can get gear that's equally as good as their Plate companions.

And it's not like the tier gear is particularly great for Tank or Kitty. Remember, all the gear that other Tanks or DPS need comes straight in a set from the vendor.

You probably haven't noticed, but Ferals don't generally wear a full set of tier gear.

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

Feral tanks are by definition one half of one spec; one half of the spec is tank, the other dps.

But really, the tier 2 wrathful staff is a difference of 3 points from something about as difficult to get, and only 10 points above Distant Land. That is significantly less of a problem for feral tanks to overcome than the difference between the best PvP trinket and the actual trinket every caster wants for PvP. And if you count the Heroic version of that trinket, the Battlemaster trinket falls even further behind.

Yes, it is kind of a problem, but it's not a huge deal for druid tanks. And I don't even remember what the original point was.

[Crissa]

Item level is not Tanking score.

'One half of one spec' you realize, until a year ago, the DPS and Tank specs were identical, and still share all but ten points, right?

You might as well point out that Druids are only available to one race per faction, too! Therefore, there should be even less druids!

Geez, Cat, talk about missing the point

-Crissa

PS, I don't even get your whine about the spellpower trinket. One gets you a flat 150 (nice!) and the other gets you a spiked, stacking that in raid situations will 'average' 350 over the combat. They don't seem at all comparable; while I'd prefer the flat, the stacking is seriously much better in PvE.