Filling a WoF Wheel

[Username17]

There are a couple of things that are really unfortunate. The first thing that's unfortunate is that if you have a small number of things your character can do, then after a few episodes it will get stale. The second unfortunate thing is that selecting from a large list generate Option Paralysis - where the simple prevalence of choices results in no choice being made and the game stalling. And a basic WoF can resolve those two unfortunate facts. You can have a large number of options that you ever use (making your character not stale episode to episode), but you still have a limited number of choices at any moment n time (making the player not panic freeze round to round). However, while that may seem to solve the problem, it actually just shifts it back to character generation. Because as anyone who has ever watched a Cleric or Wizard player sit down to select spells can tell you - selecting abilities to fill an ability matrix is an extremely time consuming enterprise.

So what can be done about that? Well, similarly to the WoF plan in the first place, the answer is probably to reduce the choices the player makes on chargen to something reasonable. What this means is that the player does not select what appears in each box. Instead you make a couple of selections of cards, and those come with an entire lineup of things to put at every number of the character's WoF rolls.

So when you take your Lightning Magic option as a Wizard, it drops this whole section onto your WoF lineup:

Roll	Maneuver	Maneuver
1	Shocking Grasp	Static Shield
2	Thunder Pulse	Magnetize
3	Electric Orb	Wall of Entropy
4	Lightning Bolt	Haste
5	Thunder Strike	Shockport

And you take your second option of Water magic, and you get to add the following to your WoF:

Roll	Maneuver	Maneuver
1	Tears of Anguish	Healing Salve
2	Acid Spray	Obscuring Mist
3	Wall of Water	Sculpt Water
4	Torrent of Water	Driving Rain
5	Horrid Wilting	Rock to Mud

And that combines to form a new WoF list by simply putting the cards side by side:

Roll	Maneuver	Maneuver	Maneuver	Maneuver
1	Shocking Grasp	Static Shield	Tears of Anguish	Healing Salve
2	Thunder Pulse	Magnetize	Acid Spray	Obscuring Mist
3	Electric Orb	Wall of Entropy	Wall of Water	Sculpt Water
4	Lightning Bolt	Haste	Torrent of Water	Driving Rain
5	Thunder Strike	Shockport	Horrid Wilting	Rock to Mud

And yeah, that means that you can play around with it a bit. Some classes could seriously get their 1 & 2 WoF options from Column A, and their 3 & 4 options from Column B (splitting option 5). Or anything you want, go nuts. Heck, for Druids and Necromancers they could have just one "Order" option at each WoF listing, with their Column B choice providing 3 weak options (weak because the character is already equipped with a DoT in the form of their pets). The point is that even though the Wizard has 20 different spells he's casting battle to battle (and thus stays interesting), he still only has to pick from 4 spells each turn (and can thus make up his damn mind in a short period of time), and only has to select two spell focuses during character generation (and can thus be created in a reasonable amount of time).

-Username17

[Crissa]

That certainly makes the multi-option wheel a bit better.

-Crissa

[Ice9]

As an option for new players, or anyone wanting to make a character quickly? Sure. As the only available option? Hell no.

The WoF mechanic adds some aesthetic appeal, but tactically, it's not much different than only having four different abilities. The one thing that could add some strategic interest is the ability to build your own wheel, MtG style.

And by "build your own", I don't just mean "at character creation", I mean being able to switch things around at least every adventure, maybe as often as every scene. Not that you need to change everything, or even anything, each time, but the option should be there. Especially because with a static wheel, players will soon figure out the optimal ability for each number, and then you're back to the "pre-canned tactics" that the WoF is supposed to avoid.


Some of this also comes down to "RPGs as entertainment vs hobbies". When you're popping in a DVD to watch, you don't want to solve a puzzle to open the box - you just want to get to the movie. But equally, if you're into building model ships, a ship that comes preconstructed and prepainted is useless to you. I (and probably most people here, given that this is an RPG forum) have more time I'd like to use for RPGs than I have available opportunities to get a group together and play them. So a character that I can't spend any more time on past a five-minute creation process is practically defective.

Supporting both types of play is ideal - so I think that this kind of preselected wheel is a great place to start, and if a given player never feels the need to change it, then that's fine. But as the sum total of options, I wouldn't play it.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Is this a level-less system? Do you gain new powers by adding another column of 5, or by swapping out old ones?

[Crissa]

I think the WoF system this way would work very well with 'abilities on cards' ideas.

-Crissa

[Anguirus]

Does the WoF system allow for forward thinking tactics (i.e. is there anything in the way of planing for the future) or is it an exercise in choosing the situationaly optimal option of those rolled each turn? Do maneuvers synergize with each other and if so how do you do that reliably? Or do you have options that vaguely and generally synergize with one another (i.e. your ninja training card gives you a lot of maneuvers that leave people prone and a lot of coup-de-gras maneuvers)? I'm sorry if this has been answered or if my question is unclear. I can be remarkably dumb.

[Username17]

Does the WoF system allow for forward thinking tactics (i.e. is there anything in the way of planing for the future) or is it an exercise in choosing the situationaly optimal option of those rolled each turn? Do maneuvers synergize with each other and if so how do you do that reliably? Or do you have options that vaguely and generally synergize with one another (i.e. your ninja training card gives you a lot of maneuvers that leave people prone and a lot of coup-de-gras maneuvers)? I'm sorry if this has been answered or if my question is unclear. I can be remarkably dumb.

Currently, the concept is that you make your roll at the end of last turn, meaning that when your turn comes around you'll have had a whole turn to think of what to do with the options you have. It also means that you know what your allies have coming up, so you know what kind of set ups your friends want.

If an ally has a burning hands coming up, they might want you to push an enemy next to another enemy. If they have a power attack coming up, maybe they want you to slow a target. And so on.

One could put the WoF roll to the beginning of last turn, so that your choice is made in reference to what you are getting next turn, but I think that would slow down play.

-Username17

[Anguirus]

This seems like there is a huge premium put on team play. That comes with all sorts of positives and negatives and I'm not going to say it is a bad thing but is there any way you could have a WoF without emphasizing the team quite so much?

[A Man In Black]

This seems like there is a huge premium put on team play. That comes with all sorts of positives and negatives and I'm not going to say it is a bad thing but is there any way you could have a WoF without emphasizing the team quite so much?

Don't make synergistic abilities.

The idea is to make it so people aren't keeping the whole team waiting while they decide what to do.

[Username17]

This seems like there is a huge premium put on team play. That comes with all sorts of positives and negatives and I'm not going to say it is a bad thing but is there any way you could have a WoF without emphasizing the team quite so much?

Uh... sure. Self synergy is incredibly easy to arrange. Indeed, it's pretty much guaranteed. No matter what groups you playtest, every character you playtest will be put on the field with itself. It's definitional. So no mater what levels of synergies, hyper-synergies, and counter-synergies any two characters have, every class will have the like of auto-synergy that the playtesters and designers are comfortable with (to the limit of their own design skill of course).

Take a look at 4th edition: Paladins are a shitty class, but Knights of the Round (a team that is seriously just five Paladins) is so absurdly good that they basically can't even lose. Paladins are bad because their low damage output, inability to pull hate from more than one enemy at a time, and high personal defenses just get them ignored by rational enemies, causing them to contribute very little to the team. But if everyone is playing a Paladin, all those team weaknesses become strengths. Because Paladins do very well in one-on-one battles, which is what Knights of the Round turns into when fighting pretty much anything.

Getting characters to synergize with themselves just isn't even hard. Give them some finishing moves set up by conditions they themselves inflict. You can even prevent that from encouraging players to play power ranger or knights of the round teams by having classes provide named team bonuses that don't stack (something I rather intend to do anyway).

But yes, my own intention is to highly encourage teamwork at every level of play.

-Username17

[Ganbare Gincun]

How many abilities do you anticipate that you can cram into the WoF table before it becomes cumbersome? What happens if players want to take a new specialty, subclass, or new powers? Do they just swap out specialties and powers at the beginning of a gaming session?

[Crissa]

But you can't make it too anti-synergistic. When you have A + A[-]1[/-] + B + B[-]1[/-] is balanced; A + A + A[-]1[/-] + A + A[-]1[/-] starts looking below par.

-Crissa

[Doom]

I think I'd max it out at 5 columns, and certainly no more than 7.

Maybe one column at level 1, another at level 2, and another every 2 levels thereafter? For a level based system, anyway. That gives 11-15 levels of play, that's really more than enough. I've seen too many systems collapse at 'high' levels to really expect a long power progression.

Of course, that's how many columns in a combat, there's nothing that says a character can't shuffle what columns he can use from time to time.

[Crissa]

I suggested that there be a level at which there's only one spinning dial, then at another, you get to add more dials. And then later, you switch out dials as you want.

But someone poo-poo'd it as level 1 enshrinement. A limit to the number of dials is a good idea, though.

-Crissa

[Username17]

How many abilities do you anticipate that you can cram into the WoF table before it becomes cumbersome? What happens if players want to take a new specialty, subclass, or new powers? Do they just swap out specialties and powers at the beginning of a gaming session?

Beyond 8 abilities on a WoF result and it becomes unmanageable. More than 4 is difficult for anyone who isn't familiar with the character. Once players are familiar with the their characters, you can go to 8 pretty quickly. It has to do with the players mentally dividing up the options into categories (whatever those are, even if they are "abilities I like to use and abilities I don't" but more profitably things like "Offensive/Defensive" or "Long Range/Short Range").

And yeah, that means that if you have a basic set up where your Energy list gives you 2 powers per WoF result and your Elemental list gives you 2 powers per WoF result, that that's basically a full introductory Wizard. And if as you go up in level, you get another card that hands out 1 power per result, and each of your basic lists grows by 1 option, and you grab a subclass that gives you 1 option per result... you're done. That character can really only grow by ability replacement if they don't want to get confusing.

Of course, you can grow secondary lists. For example, you could have a list of interrupt cards that you can use on other peoples' turns. That list is one where you have to make a choice on short notice, so it needs to be capped at 3 or 4 and should probably start at 1. And it needs to be a static list and separate from the WoF lists anyway. The reason that 4e D&D gets so confusing with is interupts is because Sorcerers have Slaad's Gambit as a 5th level Daily attack power, which means that there is no segregation for those powers from the rest of their options and no consistency in how their interupts are used. Unordered lists get super confusing super fast.

But o course, other classes don't have to grow in the same way. The Druid's Sloth of Bears grows as he levels, so he doesn't need to spawn a second order - which leaves the option for his nature powr list to grant 2 new options or for his expansion list to ultimately grant 2 instead of 1 new option at each WoF result. By segregating those option cards by class, you really can mix up ability gains quite a bit and still end up with everyone making a manageable number of choices each round.

-Username17

[Koumei]

So we'd sort of be looking at a character growth scale of:

Level 1 (or whatever advancement system) Witch:
[*]Can always hit on head with magic wand, because whatever
[*]Witchery! list A is unlocked
[*]Magic Wand list A is unlocked

So she gets:

d6 roll	Witchery!	Magic Wand
1	Magic Chanting	Pew-Pew
2	Summon Bedpan	Zap-Ray
3	Darkness	Love-Love Beam
4	Spooky Noises	Charged Wand Hit
5	Summon Bats	Channel Thunder
6	Paralysing Curse	Stunning Wand Hit

And then at level 2 she gets an Interrupt power from any [Spooky] list, so she picks "Trip On Shadows", which she can just do regardless of WoF.

Then at level 3 she unlocks List B for either and picks Witchery!, with a list like this:

d6 roll	Witchery! A	Magic Wand	Witchery! B
1	Magic Chanting	Pew-Pew	Sneezing Curse
2	Summon Bedpan	Zap-Ray	Drowsiness
3	Darkness	Love-Love Beam	The Mists are Coming
4	Spooky Noises	Charged Wand Hit	Drain Beauty
5	Summon Bats	Channel Thunder	Moonlight Aura
6	Paralysing Curse	Stunning Wand Hit	Sleep

At level 4, she then gains List B for Magic Wand, and looks like this:

d6 roll	Witchery! A	Magic Wand A	Witchery! B	Magic Wand B
1	Magic Chanting	Pew-Pew	Sneezing Curse	Ribbons!
2	Summon Bedpan	Zap-Ray	Drowsiness	Doink Doink Doink
3	Darkness	Love-Love Beam	The Mists are Coming	Make My Monster Grow!
4	Spooky Noises	Charged Wand Hit	Drain Beauty	Healing Sceptre
5	Summon Bats	Channel Thunder	Moonlight Aura	Sexy Beam
6	Paralysing Curse	Stunning Wand Hit	Sleep	Moon Prism Power

And at level 5, picks up some more goodies: another Interrupt, with either a [Spooky] or [Arcane] tag, so she picks up "Wall of Force", which is not the one we know and love but creates a very temporary one while someone is running, for hilarious results. She also gets to pick a Finishing Move, which can be activated regardless of WoF roll if she has already used 4+ different powers on the same foe in the same encounter or whatever. It can be anything with [Spooky] or [Arcane] or [Jerk] so she picks "Now You're a Frog". Actually it's probably "Now You're a Newt" and it says in the flavour text "They get better", but frogs are more iconic.

And level 5 is outright stated as the point that most people familiar with games should start, and be pimped as "the real starting point".

Then at level 6 she gains access to expanded knowledge, and takes "Animooted".

d6 roll	Witchery! A	Magic Wand A	Witchery! B	Magic Wand B	Animooted
1	Magic Chanting	Pew-Pew	Sneezing Curse	Ribbons!	Shoelaces
2	Summon Bedpan	Zap-Ray	Drowsiness	Doink Doink Doink	Attack of the Killer Tomatoes
3	Darkness	Love-Love Beam	The Mists are Coming	Make My Monster Grow!	Dancing Sword
4	Spooky Noises	Charged Wand Hit	Drain Beauty	Healing Sceptre	When Clothes Attack
5	Summon Bats	Channel Thunder	Moonlight Aura	Sexy Beam	Temporary Golem
6	Paralysing Curse	Stunning Wand Hit	Sleep	Moon Prism Power	Puppet Master

Level 7 allows for another Interrupt so she takes Mirror Image.

Level 8 probably expands a primary list, and level 9 gives another sub-list kind of like a prestige class, so she has "Magical Girl". Then at 10 she gains her final interrupt (before trading, that is), Pit of Shadows, as well as another Finisher, Red Moon Cosmic Ray Desu~.

And only at level 11 does it all fill out at maximum, where she looks like this:

Interrupts:
[*]Trip on Shadows [Spooky]
[*]Wall of Force [Arcane]
[*]Mirror Image [Arcane]
[*]Pit of Shadows [Spooky]

Finishers:
[*]Now You're a Frog!
[*]Red Moon Cosmic Ray Desu~

The Wheel of Fate:

d6 roll	Witchery! A	Magic Wand A	Witchery! B	Magic Wand B	Animooted	Witchery! C	Magical Girl	Magic Wand C
1	Magic Chanting	Pew-Pew	Sneezing Curse	Ribbons!	Shoelaces	Levitating Curse	Transformation	Bullet Hell
2	Summon Bedpan	Zap-Ray	Drowsiness	Doink Doink Doink	Attack of the Killer Tomatoes	Broomstick	Paralysing Speech	Wide Arc Blaster
3	Darkness	Love-Love Beam	The Mists are Coming	Make My Monster Grow!	Dancing Sword	Doom Cackle	Sparkling Transformation	Whack-a-Mole Wand
4	Spooky Noises	Charged Wand Hit	Drain Beauty	Healing Sceptre	When Clothes Attack	Banish	Charm	Lightning Rod
5	Summon Bats	Channel Thunder	Moonlight Aura	Sexy Beam	Temporary Golem	Life Drain	Sparkling Panty Shot	Wand-Chucks Double-Casting Bullet Hell
6	Paralysing Curse	Stunning Wand Hit	Sleep	Moon Prism Power	Puppet Master	Eternal Darkness	Ultimate Special Move (TM)	Meteor Joystick

Then maybe level 12 grants the special "Select one list (if it's a primary list, all of its lists, A, B and C, apply here). On a 6, you can actually choose any."

Is that the kind of progression we'd be looking at? Because that's something I could get behind.

[Username17]

That's pretty much what I was looking at. There are a couple of things I would modify. First of all, you want people to have more than just two things to choose from each round even at first level. With just two options, the tactical choice is usually going to be pretty obvious, which makes things feel pretty deterministic. So I think your level 4 should probably just be the actual "real starting point."

And there really ought to be some room in there somewhere for "Feats" but I'm not at all sure where. Or even if they are necessary for combat at all.

-Username17

[the_taken]

The accessory abilities list should probably deal with everything non-combat related, since it looks like the combat system is going to be very robust on it's own. Stuff like resources, skills, club memberships, and best friends.

Also:
Now You're a Frog
"You won't get better."

This Finishing Move turns one target into a frog until kissed by a princess ( other then themselves if they are one). They are effectively removed from combat, society, and any dance party they were attending.

[mean_liar]

Upgrading WoF moves in 4e style would probably suit most level-up concerns. Add in different AoE effects, or out-of-combat uses, or whatever. You don't necessarily need to add another selection every "level" or whatever.

Advancement can be both horizontal and vertical.

I still don't like WoF, but this fleshing out presents a better, more robust implementation than the earlier abstract discussions.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Questions:

1) What is your overall strategy for organizing the options on the power lists? Is your goal to have players to roll a die and have to choose from a number of similar options that share the same basic role (i.e. all of the "1" results are DPS abilities, all of the "2" results are Crowd Control abilities, etc.)? Or do you want each row to represent a spectrum of different options appropriate to whatever class the character belongs to?

2) If you plan on giving characters the option to "swap out" old powers on the WoF in exchange for new powers that they discover or cultivate over the course of their adventuring careers, how would that mesh with your WoF design strategy? Would every class have to arrange their powers in the same WoF pattern, or would they have their own "power pattern" in much the same way that each character on Puzzle Fighter has their own unique pattern for dropping blocks on their opponents?

3) Is their a particular dice system that you think would mesh best with a game that uses the WoF? The D6 system, the D20 system, or something else entirely?

4) What kinds of powers do you think that the Hero class should have? How much overlap is there between the Hero class, the Bard class, and the Rogue class? Can any of these archetypes be consolidated?

5) Given their similarities, do you think that the Warlock and the Necromancer could be consolidated into a "malconvoker" class? Or do you feel that there is enough of a difference between these classes to keep them as separate entities?

[Username17]

1) What is your overall strategy for organizing the options on the power lists? Is your goal to have players to roll a die and have to choose from a number of similar options that share the same basic role (i.e. all of the "1" results are DPS abilities, all of the "2" results are Crowd Control abilities, etc.)? Or do you want each row to represent a spectrum of different options appropriate to whatever class the character belongs to?

My druthers would be to have numbers generate a relatively consistent theme. For example, lower numbers could be more defensive and higher numbers could be more aggressive. Or lower numbers benefit more from positional advantage and higher numbers benefit more from combat advantage. Or both. Some sort of general statement you could make about a "2" result that would allow other players to make an educated guess as to how to help you out even if they never bothered to read your powers or remember what exactly they do.

2) If you plan on giving characters the option to "swap out" old powers on the WoF in exchange for new powers that they discover or cultivate over the course of their adventuring careers, how would that mesh with your WoF design strategy? Would every class have to arrange their powers in the same WoF pattern, or would they have their own "power pattern" in much the same way that each character on Puzzle Fighter has their own unique pattern for dropping blocks on their opponents?

Swap out would have to be prescheduled. Although what you swapped out to could be selected. I don't see the need for any power swap out in the Heroic Tier. But I also don't see the harm in a Druid's Entangle upgrading to Briar Web at level 8.

3) Is their a particular dice system that you think would mesh best with a game that uses the WoF? The D6 system, the D20 system, or something else entirely?

I don't see as how it matters. Or rather, while it does mater, there's no particular connection between a WoF system and any particular RNG used for the action resolution in the game.

4) What kinds of powers do you think that the Hero class should have? How much overlap is there between the Hero class, the Bard class, and the Rogue class? Can any of these archetypes be consolidated?

A lot of takes on the Bard is as a force multiplier who thus acts best as a leader. That doesn't really fit with like anyone's conception of a bard character in any story I am aware of. The only Bards who sit around to play a song to give the hero +1 are sidekicks. Actual Bard Heroes tend to be more like illusionist/thieves. In any case, I was thinking of going more like the AD&D Bard - a Fighter/Thief/Druid. So a swordsman with batlefield control powers and stuns. So really, the closest Bard Analog would be the Ranger.

The Hero and the Rogue are going to have a lot more overlap. The way I'm provisionally looking at them is:

Class	Build	Inspiration
Hero	Inspiring	Mathayus (from The Scorpion King)
Hero	Questing	Prince Eric
Hero	Avenging	Aragorn
Rogue	Scoundrel	Captain Jack Sparrow
Rogue	Blasphemous	Indiana Jones
Rogue	Sneaky	Matt Cauthon

5) Given their similarities, do you think that the Warlock and the Necromancer could be consolidated into a "malconvoker" class? Or do you feel that there is enough of a difference between these classes to keep them as separate entities?

I would pay money for no one to ever use the word "Malconvoker" again. I genuinely don't think that having a team of skeletons and same area curses feels a damn thing like being a sniper with a pet demon.

-Username17

[endersdouble]

The Hero and the Rogue are going to have a lot more overlap. The way I'm provisionally looking at them is:

Class	Build	Inspiration
Hero	Inspiring	Mathayus (from The Scorpion King)
Hero	Questing	Prince Eric
Hero	Avenging	Aragorn
Rogue	Scoundrel	Captain Jack Sparrow
Rogue	Blasphemous	Indiana Jones
Rogue	Sneaky	Matt Cauthon

So did I miss the memo about a new game you're designing?

More to the point, what are the other archetypes besides Hero and Rogue? Any game that lets me play as Mat (one t) sounds fun, and I'm curious what my other options are.

[Mask_De_H]

This is hashing out kind of like 5th Edition/Fantasy Kitchen Sink so:

Hero
Rogue
Paladin
Necromancer
Bard
Rogue
Elementalist/Wizard
Warlock
Psion
Druid
Ranger
Gish
Monk
Artificer

[Ganbare Gincun]

My druthers would be to have numbers generate a relatively consistent theme. For example, lower numbers could be more defensive and higher numbers could be more aggressive. Or lower numbers benefit more from positional advantage and higher numbers benefit more from combat advantage. Or both. Some sort of general statement you could make about a "2" result that would allow other players to make an educated guess as to how to help you out even if they never bothered to read your powers or remember what exactly they do.

How do these categories work for you?

1) Offensive - Powers that either deal burst damage or inflict damage over time. Examples: Flame Strike, Power Attack, Acid Arrow.

2) Control - Powers that either apply debuffs to targets or apply crowd control effects, Examples: Faerie Fire, Dominate Monster, Entangle.

3) Utility - Powers related to movement, kind of a catch-all miscellaneous category. Examples: Dimension Door, Disguise Self, Charm Person.

4) Recovery - Powers that either apply buffs to targets or restore health. Examples: Cure Serious Wounds, Haste, Protection From Evil.

5) Defensive - Powers that either increase the difficulty of being hit by an attack or increase the chance of resisting incoming damage. Examples: Wall Of Force, Combat Expertise, Protection From Energy.

[Username17]

How do these categories work for you?

1) Offensive - Powers that either deal burst damage or inflict damage over time. Examples: Flame Strike, Power Attack, Acid Arrow.

2) Control - Powers that either apply debuffs to targets or apply crowd control effects, Examples: Faerie Fire, Dominate Monster, Entangle.

3) Utility - Powers related to movement, kind of a catch-all miscellaneous category. Examples: Dimension Door, Disguise Self, Charm Person.

4) Recovery - Powers that either apply buffs to targets or restore health. Examples: Cure Serious Wounds, Haste, Protection From Evil.

5) Defensive - Powers that either increase the difficulty of being hit by an attack or increase the chance of resisting incoming damage. Examples: Wall Of Force, Combat Expertise, Protection From Energy.

Not very well. For the Supers version, there is an actual class whose name is "Controller." But even in the context of Fantasy, there are guys out there who have a sword who want to attack every round. There are druids with vine growth powers who are there to shift terrain every round. So I could see something more like this:

Roll:	Tide of Battle Favors:	Example:
1	Turtling	Defensive Strike
2	Positioning	Bullrush
3	Harrying	Spring Attack
4	Grinding	Full Attack
5	Assault	Heedless Charge

-Username17