Book of 9 swords review

[User3]

Folks over on the WotC boards are eating this book up. Early indications are that this book might be the most popular and well-received sourcebook that WotC's ever put out for D&D.

Also, the new uber-paradigm for melee combatants seems to be the Superstar AoO Generator . Or more specifically, creating melee combatants who can generate a ton of Attacks of Opportunities no matter what the enemy does.

The old 3.5 paradigm being ... the Superstar Tripmonkey.

[User3]

"The old 3.5 paradigm being ... the Superstar Tripmonkey. "

... in addition to the Superstar Ubercharger. Forgot about that one.

[Dragon_Child]

Folks over on the WotC boards are eating this book up. Early indications are that this book might be the most popular and well-received sourcebook that WotC's ever put out for D&D.

And this saddens me. I think it shows not only how stupid the WOTC posters are, but just how desperate people are for fighter-types to be at least marginally better than NPC classes, even if they still suck complete and total ass.

[DP]

I think this book, while it still leaves the fighters far behind casters on the power curve is a big step in the right direction. If nothing else it makes makes fighters interesting to play. That is a big deal right there. The biggest problem is that spellcasters are balanced around having an arbitray number of encounters per-day and then almost imediatly given the tools to determine how many encounters per day it feels like having. The iniaters are balanced with that in mind, that getting more bad options per day is equal to getting fewer good options.

Yeah even though none of these classes will be able to pull there weight I can't be too critical. That would be like pointing out that your kids first words were seriously retarded. No! Dog Dada.

[Tokorona]

It's not even a good step if it doesn't make them equal. IT just makesthem better, but that's no favor. Until they are equal, it's not good enough.

[RandomCasualty]

1158816312[/unixtime]]
Well, says who? Almost any intelligent monster can reasonably take "martial adept" class levels (and their hit dice count 1/2 toward initiator level, meaning high-HD creatures don't need very many levels to get good maneuvers), and that's just if you play explicitly by the rules. As a DM I don't see anything wrong with just giving certain monsters maneuvers and stances as part of their "package," sort of like how Angels pack a dozen spell-like abilities and dragons are built-in sorcerers.

Yeah, I mean you can do that, I'm just saying that monsters as written don't have this stuff. So that it's only going to be applicable to custom monsters and NPCs. I am in favor of designing the game suhc that the DM doesn't have to take extensive time preparing. It's fine for PCs to be complicated to run, only one player has to use em, but monsters need to be simple and to the point, yet competitive.

The problem with designing the game around a counter system is that it needs to be designed from the ground up like that, otherwise you end up with everyone who isn't using the latest book falling behind on power creep. Inevitably this turns monsters into pushovers.

Sadly true, although ToB is still better than nothing, which is what most melee-types had beforehand, heh. And there's a couple things that help against the worst offenders-- Mirrored Pursuit and its ilk cut off 5' step leapfrogging, Iron Heart Surge breaks Forcecages and Antimagic Fields, Mind over Body is a get-out-of-Death free card, and so on. About the only "legit" tricks you can't do anything about with maneuvers are aerial bombardment (it sucks that warriors have to have items to fly and Wizards don't, I agree), anything trans-planar (would Iron Heart Surge warp you back out of a Planeshift? hmm), and buffed up clerics and the like.

Well, arguably iron heart surge wouldn't do anything agaisnt a forcecage, since that's not truly affecting you, it's creating terrain. Similar to a wall of force, and other terrain creating spells, they don't truly affect anyone.

Also to make matters worse Ironheart surge takes a standard action, meaning that stuff like hold person or dominate which prevents you from taking actions, also prevents you from using Iron heart surge. Iron heart surge just isn't as good as people tend to think it is. Whether you're charmed, confused, mazed, power word stun, under otto's dance, or what not, there are reasons it won't help you. About all it's good for is something like enervation, or ray of exhaustion, and it's probably not something you use during battle, but rather something you'll be firing off between battles. Since you can effectively remove all your negative levels or negative status conditions with Iron heart surge and you can do that as muhc as you want.

As something during battle to beat off wizards, it's not quite all that useful.

Maneuvers don't have any way to deal with utterly broken parts of the game, like Efreet binding, Gate death and infinite loops, but I'm actually glad for that, because that means fewer things you have to ban. (I know, I know, but this isn't about "rule 0 making things go away," this is about the fact we know those things break the game, so let's just ban them instead of giving fighters the ability to cheat too.)

Yeah I agree.

Things shouldn't be balanced against things that are game breaking.

[User3]

1158458699[/unixtime]]Iron Heart Surge - This dispels Antimagic Field.

Huh?

I'm pretty sure thats not true. Antimagic Field is a 'terrain effect', it creates a dead magic zone. It does not target you.

-squirrelloid

[SirWayne]

The problem with that theory is that it makes sense. Behold, the power of nonstandard wording:

...select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds...

AMF is a spell that "affects" you (namely that it suppresses your superpowers) with a duration of more than 1 round (100 times as long, but still). Forcecage, the example I used, is a more tenuous argument-- you have to ask if being "caught and contained" counts as "affecting" you or not, since "being affected" isn't a game term, as far as I know (there's spells with the Effect: line, but that doesn't help here).

(Of course, I think the best use for it is to negate "conditions." Assuming they mean what it seems like they mean, you can use it to get out of Dying (with Diehard) or Death (since being still doesn't keep you from taking actions :[ ), Ability Drain, etc. If they mean "conditions" as in the dictionary term, then... I don't even know what happens.

It's kind of like that silly Mad Foam Rager (PHB2?) feat, except it's a standard action (due to its further nonstandardness, it's neither a Boost nor a Strike; I houseruled it to the former which caught me by surprise when RC pointed out that it did take an action) and the "effect" actually goes away.

---

RC (and sorry about the delay, I've been D&D'ed out getting my own campaign ready @_@)--

Yeah, I mean you can do that, I'm just saying that monsters as written don't have this stuff. So that it's only going to be applicable to custom monsters and NPCs.

Right, but it would've been a prohibitive amount of work to go back and indicate which monsters should be packing Maneuvers, and which ones shouldn't be (unless they just made a list and filled up some pages that way, I think my biggest gripe about the book was that it was so bloody thin (158 pages for $20 (hail Amazon))). For better or worse, "new systems" tend to get pretty much ignored by mainline product (how many new psionic powers or invocations do you see compared to Cleric spells? :|).

I am in favor of designing the game suhc that the DM doesn't have to take extensive time preparing.

Yeah, I remember you talking about how one of the few good things about AD&D was how monsters took so little work preparing. And honestly, I don't think the addition of martial adept levels (or combining them with HD, a la Rakshasa and Nymph spellcasting) is that much work-- you basically choose a bunch of 1st-level maneuvers and then one each of the higher level ones and note what action it takes to bring them back. It's slightly less complicated than choosing spells, and I agree that that can be a lot of work (although to be fair, last night I ended up having to run an NPC Fighter (combined with Warblade in my games) on the fly, and had no problem choosing three maneuvers (Counter Charge, Steel Wind, Sudden Leap) and a stance (Punishing) right there from memory). Given a couple minutes to look that stuff up instead of having to explain things slowly to our new players, and that could've easily been enough for a mid-level character. (Largely due to the fact that each discipline has few maneuvers each level (2-4) than a school of magic, and most are basic enough to memorize after a few tries.)

The problem with designing the game around a counter system is that it needs to be designed from the ground up like that, otherwise you end up with everyone who isn't using the latest book falling behind on power creep.

I don't think Tome of Battle was revolutionary enough for that to be a problem (and admittedly, that's one of its flaws, it didn't really go far enough), but it is a good point. Want to take bets on if this system gets expanded on or not? :\

---

On the whole I'm with DP. As a system to try to make caster-comparable fighters, maneuvers are a pretty good try (and there's some good ideas I'd never really thought of, like how they take an action to refresh, a good midpoint between "fire and forget" spells and "always-on" invocations), they just didn't go far enough. Given time this might just be the way to make warrior-types playable (although maybe with some PrCs or variant classes that offer anti-caster class features...)... but I guess we'll see, heh.

(If nothing else, the system is reasonably comparable at lower levels-- at level 1, for example, a Wizard gets two chances to knock enemies out of combat with Will saves, or a Warblade can do a charge attack for 2d6+Str+bull rush every other turn, and with the ability to trade in his own Will save for a skill check-- and he can do that every battle, which is pretty nice for low-level "goblin squad" encounters. By the time Martial Adepts are useless, magic is broken anyway, so I can't be too angry with them for that one.)

[RandomCasualty]

1159819911[/unixtime]]
Yeah, I remember you talking about how one of the few good things about AD&D was how monsters took so little work preparing. And honestly, I don't think the addition of martial adept levels (or combining them with HD, a la Rakshasa and Nymph spellcasting) is that much work-- you basically choose a bunch of 1st-level maneuvers and then one each of the higher level ones and note what action it takes to bring them back. It's slightly less complicated than choosing spells, and I agree that that can be a lot of work (although to be fair, last night I ended up having to run an NPC Fighter (combined with Warblade in my games) on the fly, and had no problem choosing three maneuvers (Counter Charge, Steel Wind, Sudden Leap) and a stance (Punishing) right there from memory). Given a couple minutes to look that stuff up instead of having to explain things slowly to our new players, and that could've easily been enough for a mid-level character. (Largely due to the fact that each discipline has few maneuvers each level (2-4) than a school of magic, and most are basic enough to memorize after a few tries.)

Yeah, it's certainly a lot easier to choose manuevers than it is to choose spells, magic items or feats for NPCs. Still though, it's kinda nice to have monsters you can just run out of the box without any extra choices. Sometimes you just want some big beast to challenge the party and don't want to think about it extensively. The problem is that dumb beasts don't stand much of a chance because everything is designed to kill them. A simple AoO based build is going to shred a monster and that kinda sucks.

I definitely try to stick with a keep-it-simple attitude towards monsters and really anything the DM has to run. It's ok for PCs to be incredibly complex. The same is not true for monsters and NPCs, who need to be simple enough, yet strong enough not to get run over.

[Crissa]

How does an AoO build kill a beast?

[User3]

It isn't that an AoO will kill a beast. It's that AoO builds, which have finished in the melee top 3 since Oriental Adventures, will shred any creature with lots of attacks and tactics like 'charge' and 'full attack melee.'

Something like 'Round 1: beast moves to attack, provokes AoO from moving, hits, provokes AoO from hitting, gets hit back (twice?) and tripped or takes Retributive-style damage, and then gets full-attacked.'
'Round 2: beast full attacks and gets hit for every hit it lands, and then gets full attacked.'

Stuff like that.

[User3]

I'm not exactly sure how anyone can say that ToB doesn't provide some seriously cool options. Like, for instance, healing 150 hp every other round. Or locking an enemy in place via Stand Still and Thicket of Blades. Or all-day shadow pouncing via the Shadow Jaunt line of maneuvers. Or how Stormguard Warrior singlehandedly makes TWF do viable damage. Or any number of other combos.

Am I just on crack?

[Username17]

Well having gone over your build... yes. You are on crack.


21st level? Holy crap! A 21st level character who can shadowjump around a few times and get some full attacks in (if you believe that Blink Shirts stack with Shadowpounce, which by the RAW they don't). This is the world where high level characters go on rampages. It's Epic level where the game doesn't work at all.

And that's the basic problem with all of these Book of 9 Swords combos - they aren't remotely playable. If they don't do anything good until level 20, or even level 16, they don't do anything good ever.

The game starts somewhere between 1st and 6th lvel, and then it ends somewhere between 7th and 13th. All the 20 level builds that the char op boards are enamored with don't mean anything because the game isn't played - or even playable at that point.

What you've got is a character who has Dodge and a BAB of +1 at 2nd level. You get Spring Attack at fifth. You're just not an interesting, let alone effective character until long after most games are over.

-Username17

[Imban]

Frank, I meant to reply to this earlier saying that I disagreed - the game most certainly is played -- if not fully "playable" considering the ludicrous things that can and will occur by a strict interpretation of the rules -- all the way up to 20th level, by a lot of people.

It's sure true that a build that doesn't do anything good until 16th level is barely even worth playing outside of Neverwinter Nights or something that is different from the standard format of D&D, but being able to do something good at level 20 is a perfectly reasonable goal.

The rules start to bog down once you go beyond 20th level, because epic levels have just not been handled well by WotC at all. I'm still a fan of epic-level gaming, but even if you agree not to do anything which makes it impossible to run any sort of game at all, which you've been needing to do since 9th level or so, you need to untangle a lot more rules spaghetti than with almost any other sort of D&D game.

[NineInchNall]

Ah, I see what your criticism is about now. To be fair, the character (Sir Bamfsalot) was meant to be played starting at ECL 13, when he can get two full attacks in every other round. (He actually gets the third full attack at ECL 19, not 21. I presented the character at ECL 21 just for fun.) I don't understand the "blinkshirts" comment. The Shadow Hand maneuvers do work with Shadow Pounce.

I actually designed the character for a 13th level game. Granted, there are far more powerful things that characters can do, even at earlier levels, should the player truly wish to bend the opposition over his proverbial lap, but the character remains an interesting and useful addition to a party that isn't using abusive options like thought bottle + ur-priest + ritual of trasformation + emancipated spawn. Just as game balance should not be determined by Fighters with nothing but Weapon Focus feats, balance should not be determined by the Word, the Wish, or the Twice-Betrayer of Shar. While it would be quite simple to make a character that abused alter self and Assume Supernatural Ability to turn into a Zodar at level 3, I would find that extremely uninteresting. While it is possible to make a grapplemancer, it just may not hold any interest for someone to do so. While polymorph and other spells can turn a caster into a better fighter than the Fighter, many people don't like the thematic quality of it.

I don't see building a character for a given level to be problematic, given that such is when one intends to play the character. I actually agree with you regarding many (most) of the builds that get tossed around on the WotC CO boards. Most take far too long to develop and sacrifice too much general applicability to pull off a very focused trick. Remember, though, that it is still permitted to start a game at a higher level than 1-6, and that many characters will be built around different assumptions, including different thematic ones.

I think that Bo9S adds the ability to realize several character concepts that otherwise would suck, a system that is truly fun to use, and three character classes that are better able to exist from 1-20 alongside the monsters that they can expect to face than can the standard martial classes. It is a step in the right direction. Are they the equal of the spellcasters? Of course not, nor should they be. I am a firm supporter of the dichotomy of caster vs. noncaster; it makes me happy to see the crossing power curves. The direction that WotC seems to be taking with Bo9S is to make martial characters actually useful at higher levels of play. They are finally realizing that melee classes aren't just weak compared to the spellcasting classes; they're weak compared to the non-spellcasting threats that they face.

[User3]

At our 3 game tables in my local town, we've had a total of 4 players who've been running various Bo9S/ToB characters at levels from 1 to 14. This is consistent play, mind you - since the moment we cracked open the book.

It's pretty much been a popular consensus that the classes have been a HUGE success and are very popular. The preference to playing the melee mechanics of Martial Adepts pretty much trumps anything that the fighter, paladin, barbarian, hexblade, etc. offers.

I'm still on the fence about these classes - primarily due to limited playing experience with them myself. But the fact that there are a ton more tactical options for a Martial Adept - looks extremely compelling versus the static and limited-niche benefits of feats, rage, and what have you.

[RandomCasualty]

1163097239[/unixtime]]
It's pretty much been a popular consensus that the classes have been a HUGE success and are very popular. The preference to playing the melee mechanics of Martial Adepts pretty much trumps anything that the fighter, paladin, barbarian, hexblade, etc. offers.

Yeah, they are hugely popular because they make playing a fighter character more fun. Not necessarily because of power level, but because you've got all kinds of options you can use as opposed to one gimmick that you repeat forever.

[Lago_AM3P]

Lago's more indepth review of the Book of Nine Swords manuevers.

Inspired by FrankTrollman's tearing apart of the paladin, I just picked two schools from the book at random and reviewed them thoroughly. I intend to go through the whole book eventually, reviewing them a bit at a time. The two manuevers I am reviewing is the Diamond Mind and Setting Sun Manuevers. Since there are nine schools, I'll try to make this a little more even by throwing in a review of the classes, too.

Crusader- The basic idea is that they have a rotating pool of manuevers to shift throw and don't control which one they use. This is obviously going to create a lot of problems, as they can sort through the White Raven (which is mostly good, with a few stinkers), Devoted Spirit (mostly stinkers), and Iron Heart (half and half). The big draw of playing a martial adept is having a lot of options at your fingertips! And since crusaders literally get no other active class abilities except for smite, this is a huge indictment against them. And you only get two (eventually 3 and 4). What the shit...

Steely Resolve is generally crap. The amount of damage you can delay for emergency lifesaving becomes vanishingly small. Whoo, as a 12th level character, I can delay 20 hp worth of damage! BUT WAIT! I can use my furious counterstrike ability for a bonus to attack and amage!

You don't really try to use your furious counterstrike ability, it's just going to happen. However, a crusader literally gets no other enhancements to its attack or damage roll other than manuevers. Coupled with the random selection of manuevers, you will be doing less damage than any other melee class in this or the player's handbook. Seriously, even paladins and rogues get a couple of spells that enhance their attack bonuses. Well, you'll still be better off than monks.

You also get a wad of defensive abilities, none of them really good. Does Mettle really help you with anything other than disintegrate, destruction, and cause wounds? No, it doesn't. Same goes for diehard; you get it at level 10. It's more likely that you'll be killed outright then get a chance to use this ability. Indomitable Soul. Heh. It's a good thing they gave you a once-per-day smite (oh, wait, you get a second one at level 18! WHOOOOO!) otherwise there would be no reason for you to raise your charisma bonus!

Multiclass into paladin, for god's sake.

Overall, crusaders are really shitty. Given a crusader's poor selection of schools and even being able to really control their own goddamn manuevers, you will be better off with any other non-monk melee class. The martial adept items in the back of this book are really cheap and easy to use. By blowing a fair portion of your gold, you can have a single-classed paladin that will kick the shit out of any crusader. Jesus Christ.

Swordsage- They get access to three schools no one else can use. Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Desert Wind. However, these three schools are also the CRAPPIEST, so no one gives a flying fuck.

Speaking of manuevers... Jesus. They can ready a fair number of them, but unfortunately for them it takes a full-round action for them to recover another one. This means that if they run out of manuevers, they are completely fucked. This is much less likely to happen at higher levels, since combat will last about the same duration, but it's a very real concern for low-level swordsages. Since you have average BAB, you are extremely reliant on these manuevers.


OMG, an average BAB melee class that gets a good will save but not a good fortitude save? Actually, if you can put up with the loss of BAB, this is a better dip than two levels of monk. You get more skill points, a better version of the Wisdom Bonus, a +1 bonus to initiative, and free Weapon Focus. You also gain two low-level stances and a boatload of manuevers. This isn't a bad deal at all if you're starting out since a lot of the best manuevers are low level. I'll help you out with what to pick: Burning Blade, Burning Brand, Distracting Ember, Flame's Blessing, Flashing Sun, Moment of Perfect Mind, Pearl of Black Doubt, Mighty Throw, Giant Killing Style, Assassin's Stance, Cloak of Deception, Island of Blades, Mountain Hammer, Stone Bones, Hunter's Sense, Sudden Leap, and Wolf Fang Strike. All of these are good low-level manuevers if you only plan to take a two-level detour.

But what of the rest of the class abilities?

AC Bonus- Unlike the monk's AC bonus, this might actually mean something, as you can still use light armor. Bring on the celestial mithril fullplate!

Discipline Focus- Over the course of 16 levels, you get a +1 to attack, +0-+8 on damage only when using strikes (bleh), and a +2 to saves. This is the only class feature that directly boosts your attacks outside of manuevers. Not nearly enough to make up for the massive loss of BAB.

Quick to Act- It's like having Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, only it's spread out over twenty levels!

Sense Magic (Su)- It's like having the identify spell, only it's insanely shitty!

Evasion/Improved Evasion- These abilities are actually really welcome when you get them, but they really come in too late in your life. The rogue and monk (in a way) gets them way earlier in life. Why not the swordsage? It's not like he gets any other defensive abilities (except for the +2 bonus to saves).

Dual Boost- Don't fucking be coy. No one uses level 20 abilities in the history of ever. Not even monks. Otherwise, it'd be a rather good ability on a questionable class.

Conclusion: Good for a quick detour in low-level games. Strike that--it makes a REALLY GOOD detour in low-level games. Better for dipping than the warblade, in fact, as they get better saves and more manuevers and more abilities. However, if you stick with this class it'll quickly start sucking. Once you get past the point where you're no longer in danger of using up your manuevers, you'll realize that you literally have NO OTHER class abilities that will help you out in combat. Oh, wait, there's that weaksauce discipline focus. I'd rather have Furious Counterstrike than that chain and that's saying something.


Warblade- They finally published a class that gives out d12 hp and full BAB? Don't fucking laugh, it's apparently hard for them to do that. You also get 4 skill points per level with a decent skill list. You unfortunately only get fortitude as a good save.

You know less manuevers overall than the swordsage, which isn't even much of a disadvantage because they get six disciplines--three of which are utter crap. In return, you get access to Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, and White Raven. Except for Stone Dragon, they are uniformly awesome. Furthermore, they are much easier to replenish. You just use a swift action following a regular melee attack, which unfortunately (ha!) can't be one of your strikes. So in reality, since you can use the same manuever multiple times without worries of being left out in the cold, the warblade is actually more versatile than the swordsage.

Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge- An oldy but a goldy. Ain't nothing wrong with this class ability at all. You get it faster than a barbarian or a rogue, which is weird, but understandable.

Battle Clarity- You add your intelligence bonus to reflex saves. Actually, if you rolled well at character creation, you'll want to pump up your intelligence bonus. Unlike swordsage, pumping up this tertiary stat will really pay off later.

Battle Ardor- An overall minor ability that recent books seem to be obsessed with (making critical hands land better). Oh, well, at least you get an extra manuever and save bonuses at this level.

Bonus Feats- Wow, you get bonuses feats? That's pretty cool! Then you see the list and feel like shooting yourself in the HEAD. Actually, a lot of these aren't all THAT bad. There's the standbys of Combat Reflexes and Quick Draw and you can always get a save bonus. And if you want to use the somewhat-useful tactical feats in this book, this will help you suck up the pain of qualifying for the prequisites.

Battle Cunning- Gain an insight bonus to damage rolls equal to your intelligence bonus against flatfooted or flanked opponents? That's some sweet shit right there, homes.

Battle Skill- If you've been boosting your intelligence bonus like you should (or can, if you're not playing in a high stats game), this is just more icing on the cake. Suddenly it becomes a lot safer to trip and disarm.

Battle Mastery- If only this didn't come at level 15! As you no doubt have Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike by now, you'll be gaining a boatload of attacks through attacks of opportunity. Unfortunately, you will probably never ever see this ability used. Oh, well.

Stance Mastery- Again, this is a level 20 ability that won't see any use. Activating two stances is MUCH more useful than activating two boosts. Warblade wins again.

Conclusion: If you're serious about using manuevers in this book, be a warblade. It's true, they don't get access to devoted spirit, setting sun, shadow hand, or desert wind. But in all honesty, the best manuevers out of these schools are low level. This means that they're insanely cheap to get with the right items.

To get the most out of this class, you'll probably want to take levels in the Master of Nine prestige class. Maybe not all of them, since it's a serious BAB hit, but a few. Something like a warblade 7 / master of nine 4. But having all of those extra manuevers is something else.

Anyway. Time for my biased reviewed of two disciplines chosen at random.

Diamond Mind

Out of all of the disciplines, this one seems to be the least Wuxia-inspired. You don't do anything weird or fanciful,
you often replace rolls you're not good at with bonuses you do have. In fact, the weirdest ability they have is getting blindsense. But does lacking the weird mean that they lack on the punch? Let's find out...

It sucks a LOT to have this discipline on its own. But since the Tome of Battle really wants you to cherry pick, that's what you do. This school is much

better off being cherry-picked anyway.

Action Before Thought- Once a round, you replace a reflex save with a concentration check. If you had any brains at all, you would've picked up ranks in the concentration skill (probably with a skill bonus item) before picking up Diamond Mind. Not bad, but not exactly good either. It's a counter and there are better ones out there. But you probably don't have many uses for immediate actions to begin with at the point you get it. Pick it up as a requirement, be happy for a few levels, then forget about it.

Avalance of Blades- Not nearly as OMG good as people might be squealing. You lose all of your attacks if you miss and you can't split them up. You also (probably) can't throw in things like improved trip or disarm. If you're doing TWF the proper way (this book heavily encourages you to TWF with a two-handed weapon and unarmed strikes), this manuever is a raw deal. If you must use this manuever, you'll no doubt have to make your attack bonus ridiculously high and

probably have to throw on affects that let you reroll misses to get the most out of it (Aura of Perfect Order, Luck Blades, etc.).

Bounding Assault- Wow, I get to zig-zag when I make a charge! You can, fortunately, combine it with pounce and other expansion options to make it more useful. However, this is a fairly high-level manuever. Maybe if it was lower. Pass.

Diamond Defense- Gain at least a +15 bonus once per round on any save! Can't argue with that, really. It uses up an immediate action, which is no good, but will probably save your life a lot more than a lot of other defensive manuevers in this book.

Diamond Nightmare Blade- Strictly for two-handed weapon fighters with access to an extra standard action. Which means that you'll get the best use out of it if your DM will let you use the haste armor in Defenders of the Faith. Or you have access to Action Boost from Eberron. Or you're casting Celerity from the PHB II out of a wand. If you have access to these effects, you'll be doing a boatload more damage in pinch situations. I am, of course, assuming that you have various gigantic bonuses to your Concentration skill at the time. This manuever is also a fine opener in situations where you don't have pounce and start combat away from an enemy. Be sure to have some tumble.

Disrupting Blow- Not exactly the best manuever in the world. While there are some rather easy-to-get and cheesy effects that will let you boost your strength modifier sky high, there are better manuevers that use up standard actions. However, this lone defensive ability is like a hundred times better than any other 'defensive' oriented class printed in any book outside of this one. Pathetic.

Emerald Razor- Like all Diamond Mind manuevers, it heavily favors two-handed weapon users. Fortunately for you, you can pick up this manuever before you get access to extra attacks from a full-attack, through the haste spell or BAB bonuses. Then it's good for about 3 more levels, where you get access to both.

Hearing the Air- Blindsense out to 30 feet? Ain't nothing wrong with that at all. It's an extraordinary ability, too, so it works just about anywhere you can think of. Of course, casters can just wave their hands and get blindsense at the level you get this ability (character level 9, minimum), but we're not comparing adepts to casters, are we?

Insightful Strike- The usefulness of this manuever is directly related to how high you can get your concentration check. However, since it comes at a level right before you get extra attacks from BAB and before items with bonuses to concentration checks become plentiful, it probably won't be a lot. Assuming a 5th level character with maximum ranks in concentration, a +3 constitution bonus, and an item that gives a +5 bonus to concentration checks, you'll dish out about 26 points of damage in a single strike. Of course, the same character could be using a +2 energy greatsword with a strength bonus of +5 and be dealing out about 18 points of damage per strike, too, not counting expansion feats or spells. I wouldn't even bother.

Insightful Strike, Greater- See above, only this time your weapon damage will completely outstrip your concentration check result.

Mind Over Body- See Action Before Thought. This will certainly ensure that you will pass your fortitude save for that round, but really, it still takes up an immediate action. Fortitude saves are your best ability. You may or may not want to have this for later. I wouldn't sweat not having this ability.

Moment of Alacrity- This isn't as hard as everyone is making it out to be. It's improving your initiative count by 20, where there's no upper limit. So here's how this work.

Adept gets a count of 12. Monster gets a count of 20. Monster attacks the adept. Adept attacks the monster, uses moment of alacrity as a boost to make his initiate count 32 the next round. He goes again. That's all that happens best case. Since it applies at the end of the round, there's no initiative tomfoolery you can pull with this stunt. It's a consolation prize. Some people complain that people are going to intentionally go second (to last) in the battle to 'abuse' this manuever. That's complete horsecrap. You'll get the same ratio of attacks per monster attacks as if you had simply rolled high on the initiative chart.

... actually, there is a way to slightly abuse this stance with the help of a friend with the White Raven manuever. But White Raven is so awesome, are you really surprised?

Moment of Perfect Mind- This one is the best out of all of the concentration check = save abilities for obvious reasons. Not only that, it's a level one manuever, which means that it's cheap to get off of magical items.

Pearl of Black Doubt- More proof that the only tanks in D&D come from the Book of Nine Swords. This is just a great stance for any number of reasons and is easily augmented by bag of rats. In fact, at really high levels when you start getting attacks that will never hit, you can just start attacking YOURSELF and trade those attacks in for a bonus to AC. It's like being a duelist, only you don't throw away 8 levels.

Quicksilver Motion- Unless your DM really hates PHBII for some reason, this manuever is pure unadulterated suckage. Scrolls or wands of lesser celerity are bafflingly cheap and fun and grant the same benefit. If your DM does hate the PHBII, still don't pick it up. Like a lot of manuevers in this book, it would be just fine if it was lower level. But at the level you get it, there are better effects you get for the same thing.

Rapid Counter- This manuever probably wouldn't even see any use at all, but since the hatred of 3.5E towards fighters getting extra attacks is so freaking intense, it'll find its way in a lot of fighter's arsenals. What a shame. Double Hit is so much better.

Ruby Nightmare Blade- Unlike Diamond Nightmare Blade, there's absolutely no reason for you to use this manuever. You're still getting extra attacks (from haste, BAB, and whatever) that are still a big deal.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade- Ironically (or not, keeping up with the theme of this booK) this manuever is better than Ruby Nightmare Blade. Your target loses their dexterity bonuses and takes an extra 1d6 damage. It's level 1, too, the level before you'll start getting extra attacks that matter. This would be a total replacement for attacks in the low levels if it wasn't for the very real possibility of your concentration check failing. The penalty isn't too bad if you fail your concentration check, either. Unfortunately, it'll probably happen a lot since these are the low levels and all. Since getting behind in attacks

in low level combat is very dangerous, I really wouldn't bother with this manuever.

Stance of Alacrity- Use an extra counter per round while in this stance! Or use any other immediate action and a counter! Oh, joy! There's absolutely nothing wrong with using this stance and for characters using the save replacement/bonus manuevers in this style, will add a LOT more to their survivability.

Stance of Clarity- This stance is pure unadulterated suckage in a lot of cases. Fortunately for you, stances are easy to switch and you probably aren't doing a lot with your swift actions anyway. This is an extra +2 to AC in crunch situations, I say that if you're wise or like to gamble, go ahead and risk it.



-----

Setting Sun
You supposedly use the enemy's attack against them. Unfortunately, this style has the longest chain in the whole book. It's based off of a decent manuever (Mighty Throw) that gets progressively shittier the higher you get in level, to the point where it's highly probably that you'll do less damage with the level 9 manuever than a lower level one. There are five manuevers in this chain (six if you count the related Clever Positioning), and three manuevers that don't do much other than spend you immediate action to dodge one attack. WTF. Well, let's see how the rest of the manuevers work out for them...


Baffling Defense- As a contrast to the diamond mind manuevers that replaced save checks with concentration checks, AC is much easier to raise than your sense motive check, especially at these levels. Even if you pimp out Sense Motive, it's very likely that your regular AC will be higher than what you get out of Sense Motive! And it uses up your immediate action for the round, too. Fuck this.

Ballista Throw- Aside from being goofy-as-hell, this is a manuever you get at character level 11 that does an average of 21 points of damage against the monster and all other monsters. As a standard action. What a complete load of hooey.

Clever Positioning- Another manuever that's completely silly-as-shit and like most strikes it takes up a precious standard action. Fortunately, you get it at a low level, before it becomes completely useless. It totally could become a replacement for low-level attacks, what with the enemy provoking attacks of opportunities from all of your meleeing friends if it fails a fortitude save. Unfortunately, since you're a retard that's a swordsage (and since this is low-level, you probably don't have a lot of Slippers of the Setting sun), this isn't happening.

Comet Throw- I really enjoy all of this talk about 'for every 5 points you exceed the check blah blah throw an extra 5 feet' does anyone know frickin' hard it is to exceed someone else's check by this much? Probably not. Anyway, at character level 7, you can use a trip attack to throw an opponent away from you and send them prone. What a total load of hooey.

Counter Charge- Okay, this is the first useful manuever from Setting Sun. Forcing the opponent to use its worst bonus relative to you (which will probably be dexterity), you have a chance of completely negating its attacks. This will definitely save your life against pouncers and spirited chargers. I strongly recommend that you pick up unslotted Slippers of the Setting Sun just for this manuever. They're cheap and only cost 2000 gold pieces.

Devastating Throw- The second in the stupid-as-fuck Might Throw line. It works exactly the freaking same, only you get it at character level 5, minimum, you can throw the opponent farther (negating all tactical benefits) and deal an extra seven points of damage. Whoooooooo.

Feigned Opening- This one actually isn't too bad to have in your corner pocket, but not exactly good either. You use up a precious readied manuever to, once per round, risk your foe not landing an attack of opportunity in exchange for them drawing attacks of opportunities from your friends! If this seems like a crappy emulated version of one of White Raven's manuevers, that's because it is. All of Setting Sun's best manuevers are inferior copies of other disciplines'. Sigh.

Fool's Strike- Holy shottz! You take away an opponent's attack and, like, replace it with your own! It's like Robilar's Gambit (which you can get before this) that you can only use once a friggin' round and has a chance of failing! What the fuck... it MIGHT see some use if you're fighting the Diamond Mind

users of Sapphire or Diamond Nightmare Blade. That's about it. Otherwise you would just use your Counter Charge manuever which has a better chance of working. You know, since you have an average BAB and only one class ability to back it up. Also there's a manuever two levels lower that will do exactly the fucking same as this manuever. Whoo.

Ghostly Defense- I was about to rag on this manuever, but fortunately, it's a stance. Unfortunately for you, ways to penetrate concealment are ubiquitous at the level you get this at. Thus there are better stances for you. But as an ability as a whole, this is not bad at all. It's a big help when you're fighting horde monsters.

Giant Killing Style- Against foes that are larger than you, gain a +2 bonus to attack and a +4 bonus to damage! Back that ass up with a little power attack action and then you're suddenly better than 10 levels of gnome giant slayer! Whoo!

Hydra Slaying Strike- As amusingly pointed out, this manuever is completely useless against actual hydras. Keeping in theme with the book, this tanking ability is better than anything printed outside of Tome of Battle. But if you really want to throw enemies off balance, you want White Raven Hammer. That style, which I'll hopefully get to review later, is the pimp and that's one of the reasons why. You pick up White Raven Hammer and if you can get in an attack, you automatically win against 85% of the opposition. Assuming that you entered as a warblade.

Mighty Throw- Since it doesn't have a cheesy kung-fu name and also doesn't get ridiculous, I'll cut this manuever some slack. In return, this is the only manuever of this chain that you will actually use. It's low-level, so it won't be interrupting your actual attacks. It provides a pretty big bonus on your

trip check. Obviously, to get the best use out of this ability, you'll want to have Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes. So here's how this works.

You land a melee touch attack and make a safe trip attempt a bonus of +10 or more. The opponent probably fails. You then throw the foe 5 feet within your and your allies' melee space. You gain TWO attacks of opportunities, one for it moving through your threatened region and one from knocking it prone. Then your allies get attacks of opportunities from it moving in your threatened zone.

For those keeping score at home, that's pretty fscking badass for your level. A level 3 human warblade can HAVE combat reflexes, combat expertise, and improved trip and not feel bad about it since these feats are good anyway. Until this manuever becomes obsolete in a couple of levels, you'll be sitting pretty.

Mirrored Pursuit- See the comment on Quicksilver Motion.

Scorpion Parry- Notice all of the sarcasm I made about Fool's Strike, only it's lower level. If your DM gives you grief about redirecting the attack, remind him that according to the lettering of the rules your foe is a completely legal target for this manuever. It doesn't even say anything about allies.

Shifting Defense- Hey, you get to slip away from an opponent beating you down with full attacks! Since it's a stance, you can do this as long as you have attacks of opportunity. Combine with Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike for fun for the whole family! One of the few nuggets of gold in this combat school. Sigh.
Soaring Throw- What, another manuever in the Mighty Throw school that's worse than the first chain and only barely different from the others? Fuck you, fuckers, I refuse to review this.

Stalking Shadow- You use this counter when a foe is using withdrawl and accomplish... nothing at all. What the fuck...

Step of the Wind- I like this one! This is actually a pretty good stance for your trip-monkeys when you're fighting in places like forests or other difficult terrain. It also gives you a rather powerful mobility advantage (you can take 5-foot steps and the people you hate can't). Thumbs up. Of course, it's low level...

Strike of the Broken Shield- Like most strikes, this is the suck. You give up all of your other attacks for an extra 14 points of damage and have a chance to render your foe flatfooted. At character level 7. Um... no way?

Tornado Throw- ............................... wait, this shit can actually deal lower damage than Ballista Throw, a manuever three levels lower than this? What the fuck is this shit?

In conclusion, Setting Sun almost universally sucks. There are a couple of decent abilities in here, all low level, but nothing that makes you go WOW like Tiger Claw or White Raven. If you decide to go warblade, you won't feel bad about not having access to Setting Sun. Not even a little bit.


By the way, FrankTrollman and K, any progress on the Tome of Virtue? C'mon, daddy Lago needs the fake joy coming from roleplaying people who have ideals he can never aspire to and QUIT PLAYING WITH YOUR MINIATURES AND MAKE WITH THE AGGRESSIVELY MALTHEIST GOODS BECAUSE I'M so lonely READY TO KILL.

[NineInchNall]

Your analysis of the Crusader granted maneuver mechanic is not quite on target, as the Crusader starts the fight with two maneuvers, eventually getting them all, and then eventually being able to use whatever ones he wants, round after round with no delay. By the fourth round, a level one Crusader can use Stone Bones or Crusader's Strike each round.

Crusaders get Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven.

The first school just screams, "I am Tank." Combined with the appropriate maneuvers from Stone Dragon, you can quite easily control the melee field. Stand Still + Thicket of Blades creates an area into which your enemies move and then are frozen. That is a Good Thing.

Combined with Combat Reflexes and the Martial Spirit stance, the character is virtually unkillable in melee. The enemy moves in, which provokes an AoO, so you stand him still, healing 2 HP; on your turn you hit him with Stone Bones or Crusader's Strike and take a 5' step back. Rinse; repeat. Against enemies without ranged options, this is ridiculously effective. My second level Crusader/Fighter managed to heal himself some 14 HP and soak up more than 30 points of damage in one round the first time I played him. That's pretty good, I think. I assume that with better maneuvers this could only improve.

My advice is to play a Crusader-based character. Use a reach weapon, pick up Combat Reflexes and Stand Still, and for God's sake grab Thicket of Blades. The first couple levels are definitively not about dealing large amounts of damage (well, at least no more so than with a Paladin) but the damage dealing maneuvers do come into play soon enough, but even then you probably won't be using them all that often, as you help your team more by playing the role of MMO tank.

[RandomCasualty]

Yeah Thicket of blades is obscenely powerful. It's another if you're not a reach fighter, you're boned ability.

[Lago_AM3P]

Sorry, the Iron Heart one was a typo. I had somehow tricked myself into thinking that Crusaders had better schools than they really did.

as the Crusader starts the fight with two maneuvers, eventually getting them all, and then eventually being able to use whatever ones he wants, round after round with no delay. By the fourth round, a level one Crusader can use Stone Bones or Crusader's Strike each round.

Two things.

1) When a Crusader finally gets the opportunity to use all of their manuevers, they suddenly don't, because they refresh all of their manuevers and then they're sent back to the drawing board. That's complete ass.

2) Having to gamble waiting 2 to 4 rounds to get the ability that you actually want is complete bupkiss. This is goddamn D&D; combats don't often last longer than 5 rounds. If you have to regularly wait 3 rounds to do exactly what you want, then fucking slit your character's wrists and roll a new one. Furthermore, crusaders live and die by their manuevers. They don't GET offensive abilities other than steely resolve and smite.

The first school just screams, "I am Tank." Combined with the appropriate maneuvers from Stone Dragon, you can quite easily control the melee field. Stand Still + Thicket of Blades creates an area into which your enemies move and then are frozen. That is a Good Thing.

I don't know what Stand Still is. If you're talking about Time Stands still, crusaders don't get that and this also doesn't synergize. If you're talking about the Stone Dragon manuevers that prevent someone from moving, that's still not exactly synergy. The point of having Thicket of Blades is to discourage your foes from moving (or encourage them to do it). Preventing them from moving altogether takes away all of these advantages.

Combined with Combat Reflexes and the Martial Spirit stance, the character is virtually unkillable in melee.

You don't get to have two stances unless you're a Master of Nine or a level 20 warblade with martial adept items. Though, yes, stone bones and thicket of blades do rule. Not that you're, you know, guaranteed to actually get them unless you stack your deck in such a way that all you have in your corner pocket is stone bones.

And that's why the crusader sucks so very, very much. You can't rely on a certain tactic unless you manipulate your deck in such a way to ignore the martial adept's biggest weapon over other sword-based classes (versatility).

My second level Crusader/Fighter managed to heal himself some 14 HP and soak up more than 30 points of damage in one round the first time I played him. That's pretty good, I think. I assume that with better maneuvers this could only improve.

It actually doesn't, because Martial Spirit starts out a mediocre stance that gets worse with level. And stone bones is a good low-level strike that rapidly becomes worse with time.

Yes, your combo is pretty frickin' sweet. At low level. Enjoy it while you can, because most of devoted spirit is lame beyond belief and your crusader will rapidly get worse as he accumulates manuevers he probably won't/can't use.

[RandomCasualty]

1166123941[/unixtime]]
I don't know what Stand Still is.

STAND STILL [GENERAL]
You can prevent foes from fleeing or closing.
Prerequisite: Str 13.
Benefit: When a foe’s movement out of a square you threaten grants you an attack of opportunity, you can give up that attack and instead attempt to stop your foe in his tracks. Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round.
Since you use the Stand Still feat in place of your attack of opportunity, you can do so only a number of times per round equal to the number of times per round you could make an attack of opportunity (normally just one).
Normal: Attacks of opportunity cannot halt your foes in their tracks.

[Lago_AM3P]

Ohhhh yeah. Psionics. Yes, that is really good.

I still stand by my assertion of devoted spirit otherwise being a crappy discipline. I mean, c'mon, it's a low level stance. If you really want it, you could freaking HAVE it for 4,000 gold pieces without sacrificing your item slots. You can totally gain stances from the martial adept items.

By the way, I really hate how they don't really differentiate between martial abilities that are stances and strikes/boosts/counters. They use the term 'manuever' interchangably in the book to mean all four martial categories and non-stance martial abilities.

[NineInchNall]

1166123941[/unixtime]]
1) When a Crusader finally gets the opportunity to use all of their manuevers, they suddenly don't, because they refresh all of their manuevers and then they're sent back to the drawing board. That's complete ass.

This is false. According to CustServ, you don't magically lose the maneuvers you currently have granted. All your expended maneuvers are recovered and two of them are granted you. Your currently granted maneuvers remain untouched. So by the fourth round a first level Crusader can effectively start casting cure light wounds every round. A 17th level Crusader does the same thing, except with heal.

You don't get to have two stances unless you're a Master of Nine or a level 20 warblade with martial adept items. Though, yes, stone bones and thicket of blades do rule. Not that you're, you know, guaranteed to actually get them unless you stack your deck in such a way that all you have in your corner pocket is stone bones.

Combat Reflexes + Martial Spirit is done at first level. Thicket of Blades is for later on, and is a tactical replacement for Martial Spirit. In play this has proven quite effective. I really think you're talking without actually playtesting these things.

And that's why the crusader sucks so very, very much. You can't rely on a certain tactic unless you manipulate your deck in such a way to ignore the martial adept's biggest weapon over other sword-based classes (versatility).

Sure you can. As I said, you don't magically lose your granted maneuvers upon recovery. After those initial rounds you can use whatever you want, round after round, without fuss. During those initial rounds you rely on whatever maneuvers have been granted you and whatever feats you've taken, which is certainly better off than a straight Paladin, who would only have feats. (And smite, but smite sucks.)

It actually doesn't, because Martial Spirit starts out a mediocre stance that gets worse with level. And stone bones is a good low-level strike that rapidly becomes worse with time.

Martial Spirit gets better with each extra attack that you can get per round. It amounts to fast healing. Hence the suggestion of Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon. Each AoO you take gets you another 2 hp. It was pretty freakin' sweet when one of my players pulled out a changeling Crusader/Warshaper that had like nine attacks and reach with Combat Reflexes. He was healing over 30 hp a round just from wailing on things. The economy of actions was astounding, even at first level. It's been a hoot healing my party up to full health while the DM squirms.

Yes, your combo is pretty frickin' sweet. At low level. Enjoy it while you can, because most of devoted spirit is lame beyond belief and your crusader will rapidly get worse as he accumulates manuevers he probably won't/can't use.

Hmm, my character's 6th level right now and has only been improving as levels have gone on. I can only see improvement on the horizon as I look at things like Revitalizing Strike, Divine Surge, Aura of Perfect Order, Rallying Strike, and Strike of Righteous Vitality are coming up, and that's just looking at one of the three disciplines available. Taking some White Raven and Stone Dragon maneuvers along the way can only improve things.

Again, I think you should try playing a well-built Crusader before you rag on the class. It actually plays a lot better than it reads. Of course, I've had some massive party synergy between my character and the Dragonfire Adept who makes up the other half of our party. She entangles things, and I stand them still. *shrug*

Yes, they're not abusive like full casters are, but a class doesn't have to be broken to be solid and appropriate within the context of its role. I thought that was kind of the point that Frank keeps harping on about how stupidly powerful casters are.

[Lago_AM3P]

This is false. According to CustServ, you don't magically lose the maneuvers you currently have granted. All your expended maneuvers are recovered and two of them are granted you. Your currently granted maneuvers remain untouched. So by the fourth round a first level Crusader can effectively start casting cure light wounds every round. A 17th level Crusader does the same thing, except with heal.

First of all, the buffoons at CustServ have no goddamn idea what they're talking about. From the goddamn book itself:

If, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a manuever because you have no withheld manuevers remaining

Which will happen after four rounds of combat.

you can recover all expended manuevers and a new pair of readied manuevers is granted to you. Randomly determine which of your manuevers are granted and which are withheld.

That means that after four rounds, regardless of whether you used your manuevers or not, you suddenly recover everything whether you like it or not and 3 of your manuevers go into the shuffle pile. Because, you know, they become withheld and you can't use them. That's exactly the same fucking thing I was talking about.

Your currently granted maneuvers remain untouched. So by the fourth round a first level Crusader can effectively start casting cure light wounds every round.

Which is totally not true. Regardless, cure light wounds at its weakest cures 5-6 hps a around. Where is your first-level character consistently getting three attacks from?

A 17th level Crusader does the same thing, except with heal.

Not mass heal, because that would actually be fucking useful rather than a joke ability.

Combat Reflexes + Martial Spirit is done at first level. Thicket of Blades is for later on, and is a tactical replacement for Martial Spirit. In play this has proven quite effective. I really think you're talking without actually playtesting these things.

Let's get one fucking thing out of the way. Yes, I have not actually used the Bo9S in play. I have, however, had a lot of D&D playing experience and a lot of min-maxxing experience. I don't need to playtest every pissant thing in existence to tell whether it sucks or not. It's just something I do. You know, like not needing to pull out an x-ray to tell someone their arm is broken.

You keep talking about fast healing with each swing and how much it'll save your ass yadeeda like these attacks of opportunity will somehow pop out of no-fucking-where. You're a first level character with combat reflexes, goddamnit. Unless your foe does something tactically stupid, you're not GETTING more than one attack per round. Yes, there are ways to have fun with combat reflexes to get yourselves more AoOs. Such as using reach weapons, which I assume you're doing, or using improved trip. But excuse me for doubting that you're landing these attacks enough at level one with your crusader for it to be reliable.

Anyway, why would you pick up two stances from the same discipline at around the same? I know the crusader's progression pretty much forces you to do that, but think long-term, man. You don't get to swap your stances and you are going to need every precious manuever prerequisite to qualify for the halfway decent manuevers.

Sure you can. As I said, you don't magically lose your granted maneuvers upon recovery. After those initial rounds you can use whatever you want, round after round, without fuss. During those initial rounds you rely on whatever maneuvers have been granted you and whatever feats you've taken, which is certainly better off than a straight Paladin, who would only have feats. (And smite, but smite sucks.)

YES IT DOES WORK THAT WAY. It's from the book. If CustServ wants to stealth-boost things, the goatfelchers can print a fucking errata.

No non-morons play straight paladins. That's a myth propagated by supporters of the status quo who don't crunch numbers nor struggle through the pain of having such an anemic class.

Martial Spirit gets better with each extra attack that you can get per round. It amounts to fast healing. Hence the suggestion of Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon. Each AoO you take gets you another 2 hp. It was pretty freakin' sweet when one of my players pulled out a changeling Crusader/Warshaper that had like nine attacks and reach with Combat Reflexes. He was healing over 30 hp a round just from wailing on things. The economy of actions was astounding, even at first level. It's been a hoot healing my party up to full health while the DM squirms.

Or, you know, he could've picked up another stance that wasn't as dumb as 'gain two hp with every attack!' If you have nine attacks and are fighting in such a way gaining 30 hp every round changes the outcome, I would seriously suggest rethinking your strategy.

Excuse me for not fucking believing that healing 2 hp of damage for every attack somehow gets BETTER as hp starts inflating faster than the number of attacks you're getting.

Hmm, my character's 6th level right now and has only been improving as levels have gone on. I can only see improvement on the horizon as I look at things like Revitalizing Strike

Which will screw up your pattern of manuevers, as stated above. Also, it's a strike that heals anywhere from 15.5-20.5 hp on average. That's complete bullshit; I could've bought an intelligent item that did something like that that for an extra 7500 gold pieces. That still sucks balls, but at least it fucking doesn't interfere with my attacks.

Divine Surge

It's a fixed amount of damage for a standard action, which is not bad at the point you get it for a couple of levels before you pick something better. Except that you're a crusader and might not even get that choice.

Aura of Perfect Order

Which is complete crap. Once per round I get to automatically roll an eleven for something? You're probably going to use this for saves, as ANY OTHER USE is a waste. But then, why not just be a diamond mind user?

Rallying Strike

Do I get to make snotty comments now about whether you actually playtested the schmaltzy bullshit you're talking about? If you don't see why having the ability to trade all of your other attacks as a sword-based character for a 'cure light wounds, mass' is utter garbage, I don't know what to say.

and Strike of Righteous Vitality are coming up

You get it at CHARACTER LEVEL 17, which is complete and utter bullshit. Both you and your enemies are dishing out with a full attack way more than 150 damage per round. You should be using that time to fucking shut your enemies down before they insta-kill you or your party members, not engage them in a war of attrition which you're going to lose.

and that's just looking at one of the three disciplines available. Taking some White Raven and Stone Dragon maneuvers along the way can only improve things.

Yes, they're not abusive like full casters are, but a class doesn't have to be broken to be solid and appropriate within the context of its role. I thought that was kind of the point that Frank keeps harping on about how stupidly powerful casters are.

Or you could've been a goddamn warblade. That's what I'm comparing crusaders against. Not against casters, but against the other printed class in this book. The only thing crusaders get over warblades is devoted spirits, which only has a few decent manuevers. One of them is godly but is also CHEAP AS FREE to get.

That's why they suck so much. They are almost completely directly inferior to warblades in every area that matters (survivability, dependability, damage dished out, and bonus class features) and in return they get fewer manuevers readied and fewer schools to choose from.