This is why we need regulations...

[mean_liar]

You know, there are 44,000 regulations involved in making a hamburger?

And not one that stop fvckers from destroying a four billion-dollar a year fishing industry.

I hate government.

There are plenty of regulations to prevent that, at least in BP's case.

The issue-at-hand was that they were not enforced in any appreciable manner.

[Gelare]

And if you read Upton Sinclair, you'd know that there are good reasons to have many regulations involved in making of a hamburger.

But it still doesn't stop this[url] or [url=http://burgerbeast/]that which kill people every year, either.

We still have to try.

-Crissa

If you're upset that the forty-four thousand regulations involved in making a hamburger fail to stop E. Coli recalls, that's a point against your position, not for it; ridiculous over-regulation for its own sake is, shockingly, not solving the problem. We don't need more regulations, we need smarter ones, and fewer total so that entrepreneurs wanting to get into the E. Coli-free burger business can actually do that.

[Crissa]

If you're upset that the forty-four thousand regulations involved in making a hamburger fail to stop E. Coli recalls, that's a point against your position, not for it; ridiculous over-regulation for its own sake is, shockingly, not solving the problem. We don't need more regulations, we need smarter ones, and fewer total so that entrepreneurs wanting to get into the E. Coli-free burger business can actually do that.

The number of regulations is immaterial. Heck, the number could change by a factor of a 100 or thousand just by choosing where to count things.

You oughtn't have a cow in your living room for safety and health reasons. That's one of the many laws. It has nothing to do with the hamburger, per se, but it does limit it somehow.

So the number is totally immaterial and a specious argument. The reason we still have e coli recalls is because of how those regulations are enforced, not the number of them. We get recalls because we don't have the regulation 'finish the tests before you sell it to the consumer'. And even if we did - even that wouldn't stop there from being recalls.

My point was that the number or failure or regulations big or small doesn't mean we shouldn't have them.

My original point was that end consumers ought not be required to be experts about the products they are buying. And without regulation of what words mean, companies will do their best to blur the lines between their product and the competition.

-Crissa

[Gelare]

So the number is totally immaterial and a specious argument.

Not true. I do get where you're coming from, but the number of regulations matters because more regulations are more costly to enforce. Regulations are not free, in any sense of the word. They cost actual time and effort and money from actual people, and even if they're good regulations (most aren't), that's still something you definitely want to consider. There are regulations which might result in some actual improvement down the line, but if the cost of enacting and enforcing those regulations is greater than the expected savings, they shouldn't exist, and there are huge stacks of regulations that fail that test.

My original point was that end consumers ought not be required to be experts about the products they are buying.

Doctors. Lawyers. Accountants. Engineers. Extend your case to all those subjects or I will remain extremely skeptical. I get that you're frustrated at trying to get your roof done. It's a hassle. But the original post is the worst case for government regulation I've ever seen.

[Cynic]

having too many regulations can also lead to poor enforcing. it becomes an issue of being able to enforce 45000 hamburger patty regulations in an X amt of time.

[Crissa]

My original point was that end consumers ought not be required to be experts about the products they are buying.

Doctors. Lawyers. Accountants. Engineers. Extend your case to all those subjects or I will remain extremely skeptical. I get that you're frustrated at trying to get your roof done. It's a hassle. But the original post is the worst case for government regulation I've ever seen.

Really? All of those are licensed professions. Even a roofer is licensed, although not with any sort of eye to whether they know anything about more than one product line.

Now it's 45000, not 44000? And these take time to enforce?

Like I pointed out, many of those regulations are for things only tangental to the hamburger. And even so, many regulations are only enforced after violations - as in, someone spots a violation (not someone being paid) and then they get to keep a portion of the fine levied upon the violator. Civil courts and all.

I didn't say we needed more enforcement - although we obviously do when it comes to the creation of hamburgers - but that we needed regulations to make language not useless.

Do you think that ingredient lists on food sprang out of nowhere? Or that there's a Department of Ingredient Lists that must be submitted to to sell a product?

No.

They didn't call asphalt roofing 'laminate' until there was something else better that was called laminate. It's no different than asking for the regulation stating you need to list what animals are in your hamburger or hot dog meat.

The language we use in the realm of commerce is meaningless without force of law behind the words meanings. Yes, it gives us cheese-like-product, because otherwise the word 'cheese' would be without meaning - giving us products which don't look, smell, taste, or even have the base components of cheese, being called that because cheese is the word of the day.

-Crissa

[Psychic Robot]

No, this is why we need regulations (taken from TVTropes):

One case of notable corporate corruption was the cause of LA having some of the worst traffic problems in the world: several private companies bought out the transit system and ran the business to the ground in order to make the automotive industry more lucrative.

Enron deliberately crashed most of California's power grid over and over for months so that they could charge more when the power actually worked. Then when their whole house-of-cards accounting scheme collapsed, the executives sold off all their stock options and ran, leaving thousands of employees bankrupt. Oh, and they got their accounting firm to shred a huge amount of documents, so it's impossible to tell for sure how much they stole or who's behind what.

Early British factories perfected the art of worker exploitation by creating entire company towns, where everyone worked at the same factory, and had to buy everything from stores owned by the same person who owned the factory. Imagine a lake with a river flowing out of it, that then curls around and flows right back into the lake. The workers ended up hugely in debt to their employers.

Bobby Kotick, head of Activision has officially reached this status. He's been on record saying he's wanted to suck the fun out of making video games. His most recent corrupt moment? The firing of the two founders of Infinity Ward, the studio that makes Modern Warfare. Yes, THAT Modern Warfare. The one that has been making Activision BILLIONS. Why? So the company wouldn't have to pay them the royalties. Kotick and Activision are also holding the royalties of the other Infinity Ward members as... 'incentive' for them to not leave along with the founders. Many are calling Activision the new EA.

Max Blanck and Isaac Harris◊, the owners of the Triangle Shirtwaist Company, and men who made crossing the Moral Event Horizon into an art form. They regularly set fire to their workplaces for insurance money, and as a result, refused to install sprinkler systems and take other safety measures in case they needed to burn down their shops again. They had extreme anti-worker policies, and even hired policemen to imprison workers women who led a strike. Finally, they locked their offices from the inside to prevent their workers from taking smoke breaks. When a fire broke out (NOT caused by them, interestingly enough) on March 25th, 1911, 146 women workers were trapped within the building and burned alive. They managed to get acquitted, and in fact collected $400 per casualty in insurance money. These men were truly evil.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

goddammit. Whenever I've written off Psychic Robot he makes good points. God. Damn. It!

I wish I had a life good enough that my inability to research roofing shingles was a big enough deal I could rant about it. I really do.

[Crissa]

PR has no good points. If you just threw up your hands and said that there's a bigger problem elsewhere, nothing would ever get done.

In effect, someone thinks about the roofing tiles on your roof. Maybe it isn't you. But someone has. And that someone had their time wasted, too.

-Crissa

[Psychic Robot]

PR has no good points.

Businessman fucking thousands of people in the ass with illicit doings is far, far more important than Crissa not understanding how to buy shingles.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

PR has no good points. If you just threw up your hands and said that there's a bigger problem elsewhere, nothing would ever get done.

In effect, someone thinks about the roofing tiles on your roof. Maybe it isn't you. But someone has. And that someone had their time wasted, too.

-Crissa

Crissa, you are seriously whining about having your time wasted. It sucks, but you know who else has their time wasted? Everybody. Seriously, 99% of all daily activities waste time. If you weren't an amateur trying to fix a roof, you'd know where exactly to look for the shingles you need. What was that you did for a living again? Ah, right, nothing.

You are seriously arguing that new standards need to be in place that makes it slightly more convenient for someone who doesn't know her ass from a hole in the ground to pick out shingles. PR is arguing that there are far more pressing issues for the government to get involved in, but NOOOOOOOOOO, you want to pick out shingles NOOOOOOW.

Stop being an entitled, spoiled brat for like three seconds. Those of us who aren't big enough scumbags to sponge off our girlfriends find your petulant whining to be out of proportion, meaningless, and bratty, and the world would be a better place if you dropped dead right now.

[Zinegata]

I totally support this completely justified bitch-slapping of Crissa.

That is all.

[mean_liar]

I don't like the tone. Chastising needn't be cruel. So there. I am a big wuss.

[Kaelik]

Those of us who aren't big enough scumbags to sponge off our girlfriends find your petulant whining to be out of proportion, meaningless, and bratty, and the world would be a better place if you dropped dead right now.

It's not scumbaggy to sponge off your girlfriend if she can afford it and wants to do it, which superficially appears to be the case.

It's only scumbaggy to think that your great problems of roofing shingles are more important than Enron/BP/and six other things combined.

[Crissa]

Caveat emptor. Yeah yeah. You guys are being idiots. That trash on the street? Oh, there's something more important to pick up. That tipped over empty can of oil? It's not as important as the BP spill, is it? If you never deal with little problems because someone else has it worse, then the problems never get dealt with. There are over three hundred million people in this country. We have over five hundred elected federal representatives. They don't need to all focus on one job at a time.

There are always companies who will try to lie and cheat, even on things which seems silly to lie and cheat about.

So we need fucking regulations. Even when it seems obvious, and the company said they tested and met current standards.

-Crissa

PS, the Georgia Pacific stuff wasn't called hardboard or masonite when it was sold, before the recall. Because it's known that those products aren't weather resistant. They called it weather proof composite wood.

[RandomCasualty2]

Caveat emptor. Yeah yeah. You guys are being idiots. That trash on the street? Oh, there's something more important to pick up. That tipped over empty can of oil? It's not as important as the BP spill, is it? If you never deal with little problems because someone else has it worse, then the problems never get dealt with. There are over three hundred million people in this country. We have over five hundred elected federal representatives. They don't need to all focus on one job at a time.

Wow. I actually agree with Crissa on something.

Yeah, saying "there's a bigger problem" as an excuse not to solve a smaller one is pretty stupid.

It's one thing to say "There's a bigger problem we can fix that's easier to fix and our resources are best spent doing that." But simply citing the existence of a bigger problem isn't an excuse to avoid dealing with a smaller one.

And nonetheless, Businesses blatantly lying, using deceptive tactics and sometimes outright fraud is a pretty big problem and should be addressed. Bullshitting the customer shouldn't be considered an acceptable business practice. All that does is punish legitimate businesses.

[Kaelik]

But no one is actually saying "so we shouldn't regulate ceiling shingles"

Instead we are saying "Our current level of ceiling shingle regulation is fine, but obviously oil/energy company regulations needs some work."

To which Crissa replies, "But I had to look something up on the internet! It's not fair!"

[Maj]

My original point was that end consumers ought not be required to be experts about the products they are buying.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

You're buying something that costs thousands of dollars. You are not only making a huge up front financial investment, but you're making an investment in the overall value of your house and your quality of life as a resident of that house. You've mentioned the environment, which also means you're investing in the world around you.

You damn well better be as much of an expert as you possibly can.

From buying peanut butter to buying a car - if you give a damn, you will become knowledgeable. You will develop standards, and you will be pissed when people who don't care about your standards seem to violate them.

That's a good thing.

Government regulations cannot anticipate everyone's standards - just like stupidity, there will always be someone out there who's desires aren't covered. There are just too many people. And really, when it comes to people who care, it's not like regulations will make you inform yourself any less.

[mean_liar]

I imagine most people without roofing experience who are looking into installing a roof are in developed suburban areas whose major concern is warranty length, not resistance to high-grade hailfall, hurricane intensity winds, or the roof's flame retardant capabilities. They want to know if it looks like X or Y or Z, and they don't care about asphalt so long as it's warrantied and pretty.

Now that's a problem for Crissa, but not them. I don't think it's deceptive for a supplier to say, "this is terra cotta!" based on it's look since it's what most consumers want to know.

[Zinegata]

I am not above cruelty .

That being said, it would probably be more productive to get the government to regulate RPG gaming products than this shingle stupidity. The really bad ones should be stamped "Frank thinks this sucks!"

Think of all the dollars gamers would save!

[RandomCasualty2]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

You're buying something that costs thousands of dollars. You are not only making a huge up front financial investment, but you're making an investment in the overall value of your house and your quality of life as a resident of that house. You've mentioned the environment, which also means you're investing in the world around you.

Honestly though no. The business is always going to know more about the product than you, unless you devote a long period of study.

For instance, probably the most basic one that everyone can relate to is cars. Car dealers know the shit that can go wrong with them, so when they're writing a warranty or what not, they can very well fail to include important things to make their warranty look comprehensive when it's not. And further, they can always claim the problem you had was something your warranty didn't cover. I mean there's so many ways for these guys to deceive you and trick you that without any kind of government regulation, you as the buyer are fucked.

And no, I don't think it's reasonable to say that everyone should become a car expert. You're paying someone to diagnose and fix your car problems because you don't want to be an expert, the same way you pay a doctor when you get sick.

And you as the buyer shouldn't have to cut through a shitload of deception to get the information you want.

[Zinegata]

A business know more about the product it sells, but the only person who knows what they actually need is themselves.

[Maj]

The business is always going to know more about the product than you, unless you devote a long period of study.

Not necessarily.

Sales people, especially in commission-based jobs, have a high turnover rate. Frequently, they aren't taught about products as a whole, they're taught about products that their company sells.

For instance, probably the most basic one that everyone can relate to is cars. Car dealers know the shit that can go wrong with them, so when they're writing a warranty or what not, they can very well fail to include important things to make their warranty look comprehensive when it's not.

By dealers, do you mean dealership owners, the loan department people, the sales people, the repair people, or some other group entirely?

I don't think it works how you think it does. Warranties are generally written by someone at some headquarters somewhere. They're based on statistics because they essentially are insurance for your car.

And further, they can always claim the problem you had was something your warranty didn't cover. I mean there's so many ways for these guys to deceive you and trick you that without any kind of government regulation, you as the buyer are fucked.

They trick you because you don't know about fine print and legalities. Which is exactly my point - people who care get themselves informed. It doesn't take a degree or special schooling to read a warranty.

And no, I don't think it's reasonable to say that everyone should become a car expert. You're paying someone to diagnose and fix your car problems because you don't want to be an expert, the same way you pay a doctor when you get sick.

You absolutely should get informed about repairs. You don't have to know how to do it yourself, but you should absolutely be looking at a mechanic's track record, you should ask as many questions about the problem as possible, and you should research the average cost of the repair that's being done.

Just like a patient who should get a second opinion on a major diagnosis and research medical options and pharmaceutical side effects.

If you actually care, you will become informed. You don't have to learn how to do the brain surgery you need, but you damned well better meet your doctor, check out the facilities, and get a second opinion before that doctor starts cutting.

And you as the buyer shouldn't have to cut through a shitload of deception to get the information you want.

You shouldn't, but you always will. So long as one person benefits from another person using their service or product, you will have a seller who wants to look as good as possible, and so will use whatever tricks they can to get your business.

We have regulations so they can't (in theory) straight-up lie to your face. But misleading tactics are the subject of human psychology, not business and industry. No matter how much we regulate, so long as humans buy and sell, there will always be deception.

And there is only one way to expose that deception: knowledge.

[RandomCasualty2]

They trick you because you don't know about fine print and legalities. Which is exactly my point - people who care get themselves informed. It doesn't take a degree or special schooling to read a warranty.

Actually for car warranties, yeah it does. Because they list what's covered. What they don't list is what isn't covered. Which means that you have to basically know every part of your car that may or may not go bad. That means you have to know every part.

You shouldn't, but you always will. So long as one person benefits from another person using their service or product, you will have a seller who wants to look as good as possible, and so will use whatever tricks they can to get your business.

We have regulations so they can't (in theory) straight-up lie to your face. But misleading tactics are the subject of human psychology, not business and industry. No matter how much we regulate, so long as humans buy and sell, there will always be deception.

Actually they totally can and do lie to your face. They can pretty much *say* whatever they want, because the written contract supersedes anything they tell you. In fact, quite a few businesses get by by saying one thing and just straight up never putting it in writing and denying they said it.

And honestly I think the government should crack down on that shit. First thing they should definitely do is allow you to tape record any business deal without telling the other person, and that should totally be admissible in court. Further the government should slap businesses hard when they try any kind of deceptive tactics like that. Deceptively written contracts should also incur fines. Seriously if you make the shit hard for people without extensive expertise to decipher, you should get hit with a fine. There's just no reason to do that other than to confuse the consumer.

It's also a major part of telemarketing scams, which honestly I don't know why the government doesn't shut down either.

Now you're absolutely right we're always going to have people trying to scam others, but the government absolutely should try to put a stop to it with regulations and laws against it.

[Neeeek]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

You're buying something that costs thousands of dollars. You are not only making a huge up front financial investment, but you're making an investment in the overall value of your house and your quality of life as a resident of that house. You've mentioned the environment, which also means you're investing in the world around you.

You damn well better be as much of an expert as you possibly can.

From buying peanut butter to buying a car - if you give a damn, you will become knowledgeable. You will develop standards, and you will be pissed when people who don't care about your standards seem to violate them.

That's a good thing.

Government regulations cannot anticipate everyone's standards - just like stupidity, there will always be someone out there who's desires aren't covered. There are just too many people. And really, when it comes to people who care, it's not like regulations will make you inform yourself any less.

Maj, I like you, but your position is both wrong and arguably insane.

Here's the truth: No one, at all, has the time to be knowledgeable about even a small fraction of the decisions they make in the course of their life. And trying to be is a horrendous waste of resources. Having the government punish producers for making crap products is absolutely a better system than having the consumers having to learn about the product to make an informed decision. This is because there are far more consumers for a given product than producers. And the producers are in a better position to correct their behavior anyway.

Trying to know even more than a passing amount about anything you aren't going to become extremely knowledgeable about is a waste of time and energy that could be better spent on something you do know more about than the vast majority of people. Where you might actually be able to help someone make a decision.