RPG mechanics' strengths >> their weaknesses

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Smeelbo
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RPG mechanics' strengths >> their weaknesses

Post by Smeelbo »

RPG's Strength >> Weakness

I have a different perspective from Frank, and to a large extent, I can summarize it as follows:

"For people actually playing an RPG, a game's strengths are far more important than it's weaknesses."

That is, while it is fun to discuss binding cheese, the wish economy, degenerate builds, self-stooging in FATE, when I actually observe actual people playing actual games, the strengths of a specific set of role-playing mechanics have far more to do with determining how much people enjoy playing a game than the theoretical mechanical flaws of a specific game. That is, I rarely see a game of D&D ruined by binding or polymorph cheese, but I quite often see people taking advantage of feats, skill points, and multi-classing in order to create characters that are interesting to play, and having a good time gaming with their groups.

What do I mean by "quite often?"

A little background. I moved to my current neighboorhood a little over 2 years ago in order to take care of my invalid mother. A few miles from my new home is a card shop, which devotes over half its floor space to gaming tables, and which was focused on CCG play--Magic, Yugioh, Pokemon, Naruto, Battle Spirits, UFS and Chaotic, mostly. They host multiple games and tournaments scheduled days a week. Soon I went to work for them as their non-CCG buyer/sales manager, and now they do a fair chunk of their business in board and roleplaying games. For the month of July, 2010, I expect to see a few dozen roleplaying sessions held at the store. I'm not there all the time, but so far this month, as of Saturday afternoon, July 17, we've hosted:
  • ~20 sessions of D&D 4E, mostly, but not all, RPGA and Encounters.
    ~10 sessions of PathFinder/3.5, mostly homebrew campaigns and scenarios.
    3 sessions of Traveller.
    Individuals sessions of Ryvah, ShadowRun, Savage Worlds, and FATE Homebrew Fantasy.
There's also a few semi-weekly PF/D&D3.5 campaigns "associated" with the store (i.e., the players meet at the store, but play elsewhere). And there's still a couple more weeks left in the month.

Each of these games is mechanicly flawed, to a greater or lesser degree, but these flaws are not generally observed in play. Instead, players are focused on how the games allow them to have fun with their characters, and with their friends. No amount of criticism of PathFinder (for example) detracts one whit from the obvious enjoyment players have building characters and having those characters do stuff.

All of these games have strengths, which attract players to each game.

For example, I found D&D3.5 a huge step forward over earlier published versions of D&D. Between feats, skill points, and multi-classing, I found I could build pretty much any character concept I cared to, and have a pretty good time campaigning up to around 10th level or so. D&D3.5's basic D20 mechanic does an excellent job of keep player and DM information separate: D20 + bonus and player-controlled penalties versus Difficulty Class and DM controlled modifiers. From a design perspective, that is the proper place to split the information.

D&D4E, for all it's numerous faults, almost did some things right. Standard, Move and Minor is much cleaner than D&D3.5's mix of standard, move, move-equivalent, and full-round actions. At low levels, the game is easy to teach even to a completely new player. Re-casting Fortitude, Reflex and Will as defenses instead of "savings throws" is more rational. Skills are easier to manage. Despite the huge amount of fail in 4E, it is played with relish by lots of people. And it's not because those players are stupid.

The problem I have with the so-called Oberoni Fallacy is that it misses the point. I'm not arguing that degenerate game mechanics aren't a problem because they can be "house-ruled away." Instead, I see the over-emphasis on bad mechanics misses the point of how game mechanics are used in practice by actual players. Game mechanics are like pen, paper, miniatures, maps, battlemats, mood music, and so on: they are tools that facilitate group story telling. Game mechanics are one important element of a larger game, but they are not the game itself.

If D&D were like chess or go, that is, definite games defined completely by their mechanics, then binding cheese would be a fatal flaw in the game's design, and the game would be unplayable. But the role of mechanics in an RPG is more akin to that of pen and paper. Rules function more like a medium in which stories are created. Saying that binding cheese ruins D&D is akin to saying that because pen and paper allow you to write degenerate stories (e.g., nonsense), that pen and paper are bad. One may reply that we might as well play "Pretty Pretty Princess," but in fact, we are, regardless of what rule mechanics we use. "Pretty Pretty Princess" relies on consensus, and using game mechanics to determine outcomes is just another way of attaining consensus.

So when I evaluate a set of RPG mechanics, I am more concerned with the strengths of those mechanics, rather than their weaknesses.
  • Is the game playable?
    How easily is it taught to new players?
    How playable are the character sheets?
    Can I act on reasonable expectations about my character, and the world?
    Are the mechanics elegant, rather than arcane?
    Are the game elements fun to play?
There is a lot of room for criticizing game mechanics. Some rule sets, like 4E, have hugely failed in their design goals, and need a lot of work. But I don't agree that even huge flaws in game mechanics necessarily translate into a poor gaming experience. When the game does enough things well enough for enough players, then you have can have a fun game. Over-powered spell casters didn't prevent us from having a great time playing D&D over a few decades. Speed and No Normal Defense Attacks didn't detract from our Champions campaign. Binding cheese has never even come up in any games I've played, only in theoretical discussions. Even when players are aware of these flaws, they almost always choose fun over degeneracy. There is a huge difference between a mechanical game, like Magic the Gathering, which could be literally ruined by a major game mechanical flaw, and role playing games, which are famously tolerant of big flaws.

I'm sure my perspective is influenced a lot by the fact that I am a salesman, and my job is to sell games. In serving my customer, I am selling them fun, and my job is in large part to describe to them how they can have fun playing a specific game, and which games might be more fun for them. Thus, I am drawn to the strengths of a game more than its weaknesses. And what I observe, when I watch people play, are players largely taking advantage of the games strengths, in order to have fun, and largely avoiding the game's weaknesses, even when they know them quite well.

Smeelbo
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Welcome to the Gaming Den, where we will steal your wife, rape your dog, and kill your car.

And we'll say mean things about the system you like. On the Internet.

Get off it man, you sound like a 4rrie. Better yet: there's really no reason to do so, because despite it's flaws, Frank has said on a few occasions that FATE is a good system that he likes and this thread is you being butthurt that he said mean things about it.
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 »

I have carefully considered your point. You are wrong. Period.

Yes, games that people play have strengths that outweigh the weaknesses of those same games for players of those games. This is trivially true because players for whom the weaknesses exceeded the strengths would fuck off an play other games. However, this in no way means that the weaknesses of the games people are playing don't exist or don't impact them.

Let's get this out of the way first off: gaming is fun. I like doing it. I have friends who also like doing it. And there are strangers out there who I have never met who I would like to game with. So one of the hugest strengths that a game can have is "being a game" and another one is "being one people actually know." And who can possibly top "being played right now?" 4e D&D gets substantial mileage out of the fact that it is the game that happens to be being pushed by the largest game company. It gets big mileage out of the fact that they do run D&D Encounters on a regular basis, and I know for a fact that I could move to a new city far away and still (at least, if I was in the English speaking world) get a 4e D&D game together with complete strangers inside of a week. That's a strength. And if I was getting enough of the game jitters, that strength would outweigh the weaknesses of the system. At least for a while.

But to say that the game is therefore OK or doesn't have problems or can't be improved is intellectually lazy. The fact that a shit sandwich is keeping you alive and you're glad to have it does not stop it from being a shit sandwich, nor does it mean that it couldn't be improved.

Now let's talk about your specific claims. Which I must point out, are also wrong.

First, 3.5 is not especially an improvement over 3e. It moves some stuff around, but for every "Rangers are slightly more interesting for a few levels" or "getting rid of the Scry skill was probably a good idea" improvement there is at least one "they made weapon sizes make less functional" or "the cover guidelines make way less sense" introduced problem. But sure, we can talk about the 3rd edition ruleset as 3e/3.5 inclusive. And from that perspective, yes it is a very large improvement overall when compared to any edition AD&D or D&D Basic.

But the fact that players can make more interesting characters and have more tools in their hands for pushing stories in the directions they want to go and the basic combat system is much more interesting, and all those nice things together... does not mean that the game doesn't have problems and it does not mean that those problems don't impact play. They do. They impact play a whole fucking lot.

Planar Binding is just a single spell. It's a single incredibly problematic spell, but it really is just one. It shows up at 11th level on one of the 11 classes in the basic book as one of the 43 spell options that class can choose to pick up out of the core book. And yes, it's a big fucking deal, but considering that it is hiding in the middle of a spell description list that is one hundred and eight pages long, it can take people quite a while of in-play action before they run into the damn thing at random. Of course, when they do it's pretty much of a game tainter, because even the most placid and uninteresting uses of the damn thing merely render the other part members superfluous. And of course, most people who would run into it non-randomly actually choose to not run into it at all. Understanding what that spell will do to a campaign, they choose to not use it. And you could claim that because they choose to not use it that it is not having a negative impact - and you'd be wrong. If players are censoring themselves, they know that they are doing so. And that is disruptive to the game.

Remember also that one of the biggest ways that people voluntarily don't use Planar Binding is that they don't achieve 11th level. Round about the 8-10 range, they start over. Some people even go so far as to institute hard level caps at 6th level. It's called E6 and a number of people use it. And they don't do this because Planar Binding isn't a problem. They do it because Planar Binding is a problem. And because it's actually just one of a long fucking list of problems that become more and more noticeable as you go up in levels. It's not just that Wizards get the ability to make an army of demons every bit the equal and superior of the rest of the team, it's that making a Fighter or a Bard who can hold their own against level appropriate opposition becomes harder and harder as you rise in level. Eventually you get to the point where you surpass the player's ability or stomach for min/maxing and the meat shields fall to the wayside unless the DM intervenes and gives them wildly badass equipment that essentially replaces their character.

And yeah, people like that shit less and less, and that's why people don't play at 17th level. And that's a big fucking problem, because supposedly half or more of the play space is in the double digit levels - and the fact that they work really poorly means that people have a lot less fun with 3.x D&D than they could. And it results in people prematurely ending D&D campaigns all the fucking time. We've been playing 3.x D&D for a decade now and we have a pretty hefty pile of fucking anecdotes on this. People end campaigns because the mechanical screwiness and power disparities at high levels make the game less fun fairly frequently. It's up there with "the school year started/ended" as a frequently sited reason to terminate a game and go play something else or play the same game starting from a level where things work better.

Your central thesis is wrong. It's wrong on many levels. But it's most explicitly wrong in the fact that even within the context of "games that people play are ones where they feel the advantages outweigh the disadvantages" doesn't even apply to your examples. Because your examples actually are things that are deal breakers for huge numbers of players of those games. "Oh shit, we're level 12 and things are fucking insane" is one of the more common reasons for games of 3.x D&D to break up, which means that obviously at that point the weaknesses of the system are weighed more heavily than the strengths.

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Post by kzt »

The fact that people like playing a game isn't necessarily a reflection of the game being good or bad. It's often that playing a game with a dumb system is more fun then not playing a game.

I had a lot of fun playing Bushido, which essentially combines all the bad features of a class based and a skill based system into one ugly mess. But it was fun largely in spite of the game system. The GM and several players knew a huge amount of the period and conveyed that well, the rest of us were interested and willing to learn and found the weirdness of (a twisted version of) medieval Japan to be fascinating. And we hand-waved a lot of the idiocy away.

Robert Charrette certainly did better games. If I wanted to run a game set in the period Bushido would NOT be on the list of systems I'd look at, though I might pillage some minor pieces.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Strengths invariably do outweigh weaknesses, because ultimately we remember the things we like about a system. Yes, we complain about what we don't like, but what we like is what brings us to it.

A game has to be interesting and have potential in the first place for people to play it at all. 4E for instance, has a lot of advantages over 3.5, but 4E isn't inherently interesting, and thus isn't doing well.

Despite Rifts being a god awful game system, people remember it and played it because of what few good things it had, almost turning a blind eye to all the awful shit in it.
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Post by Crissa »

People can make any game fun. That's the people, not the game. It doesn't make a game good that it was played by people who would have had a good time without said game.

-Crissa
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Ice9
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Post by Ice9 »

I think it's true that the presence (or absence) of good features often outweighs the presence (or absence) of bad ones. As RC2 mentioned, 4E has a whole lot less glitches than 3E, and yet the fun things that it lacks are enough to outweigh that - for most people here at least.

That doesn't mean the bad features don't exist - if there was a system with all the fun options of 3E but mechanically solid, I'd be jumping over to it like a rat off a sinking ship.

... Of course, that only works if other players do the same - popularity is in some ways the most significant factor.
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Post by TheWorid »

I'm coming a little late to the party it seems, but I'll chime in anyways.

People stick around playing bad games for many reasons, including availability of systems, unwillingness to learn a new game, etc. This doesn't mean that they aren't having fun, merely that they are having fun in spite of the system, not because the system is doing a good job of facilitating it. There is no good reason to defend bad mechanics. One can enjoy playing a system despite its flaws, but they are still flaws.

I've been playing in a Star Wars Saga game for some time now. I and everyone else can see the plethora of flaws the game has; yet we have fun with it. Still, by no means will I make a massive post pleading that those flaws don't matter. They do matter. Every time they assert themselves, they inhibit enjoyment. Your thesis does not align with my experience.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa »

TheWorld's point is like how all auto insurance companies always are able to point out that new customers save a large amount. That amount is equal to the difficulty in changing from one to the other, in essence. People wouldn't change their insurance if they weren't getting a benefit from it.

Same works for games, jobs, anything, really. The term for that is 'inertia' or 'market resistance', depending on if you're looking at one or the other aspect (sticking around vs selecting a new one).

-Crissa
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

TheWorid wrote:One can enjoy playing a system despite its flaws, but they are still flaws.
Nobody is saying they're not. The point of the discussion is that a flawed game with a lot of elements people like and get excited about is superior to a dull game with few flaws, because you remember the things you like more so than you remember the flaws with the game.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Surgo »

Crissa wrote:TheWorld's point is like how all auto insurance companies always are able to point out that new customers save a large amount.
After shopping around for auto insurance last week, I quickly realized that the reason everyone could claim people save by switching is because everyone offers a sliding price for how much insurance you're actually getting and people save money by switching from the high point on the slider to the low point.
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Post by mean_liar »

Games can be fun and bad; they only need to be "good enough", not necessarily "excellent" or even "good". Discussion about their flaws shouldn't be necessarily interpreted as thinking they have no fun to offer. Such discussion's main purpose is simply to encourage our own house rules or design to do better in the future.
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Post by Username17 »

I also think it needs especial stressing that the argument "I have not seen problematic item X in play" is an incredibly bad argument that item X isn't a problem. It doesn't indicate that object isn't game disrupting, it indicates that the speaker has no firsthand knowledge of what he is talking about.

If a card in Magic breaks the game when it is played, the fact that you haven't gotten it in a booster pack is no argument at all that it should not be restricted or banned.

There are 43 6th level Wizard spells in the 3.5 PHB. There are another 42 of them in the Spell Compendium. A majority of games do not get to level 12. A Wizard only is assured of getting 4 spells of 6th level by level 12. Non-Wizards mostly don't get Wizard spells at all. Clearly, any particular 6th level spell we discuss is a rare event. But rarity is not a game mechanic. Not in Magic, and not in D&D. A game breaking spell breaks the game regardless of whether it is Common or Rare. And let me tell you, if your particular game is broken by a particular spell, having people pop up to tell you that the spell in question is rare and thus never came up in their own game and therefore doesn't matter - is an insult.

It's literally the argument of anti-vaxxers.

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Post by RiotGearEpsilon »

FrankTrollman wrote:It's literally the argument of anti-vaxxers.
This is one of those arguments which - while completely correct - maybe is in bad taste.
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Post by A Man In Black »

RiotGearEpsilon wrote:This is one of those arguments which - while completely correct - maybe is in bad taste.
I think the header should be changed to "The Gaming Den: Completely correct, in bad taste."
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