Prestige Classes worthy of the name

[Red_Rob]

Our group has just started playing 3.5 and we are using the Tome classes. One thing we noticed is that most of the Prestige classes we've looked at seem to give out powers that are just worse than the powers of the base Tome classes.

As there are a metric fuck-tonne of Prestige classes, reading through them all and evaluating all their abilities against the Tome classes seems like a lot of work, so I thought I'd try to shirk it by asking here! *mumble mumble insert overworked DM excuse bullshit here*

Could people list any Prestige classes they have found work with the Tome classes here? If there is a specific build or setup that makes it viable please also mention it.

I'm mainly focussed on the martial classes at the moment. As casters don't change under Tome I'm assuming most of their prestige classes are still relevant.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Have you looked at the PrCs in the tomes? Boatman of the Styx, Bone Rider, Death Knight, Demon Samurai, Dragon Disciple, Dragon Lancer, Dungeon Veteran, Elothar, Legendary Strategist, and Maelstrom of Fiery Ki are all pretty awesome.

[Orion]

Maelstrom of Fiery Ki?

[Koumei]

Yeah, some totally awesome person made that one: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50042&start=0

Also, Elothar is the greatest PrCl ever. Even people who hate the Tomes love that one and get a laugh out of it.

[Aktariel]

Maelstrom of Fiery Ki is also in the latest version of the Tome PDF, as are a number of other pretty sweet prestige classes designed with Tome in mind.

/shameless plug.

[Maxus]

Progenitor of the Gith is also pretty awesome.

It's in the Dungeonomicon, but in the middle of a section.

[erik]

Yeah, some totally awesome person made that one: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50042&start=0

Also, Elothar is the greatest PrCl ever. Even people who hate the Tomes love that one and get a laugh out of it.

[edit:whoops... I had a brain failure and thought Elothar was a core class, meh... rest of post still stands]


I like that the Elothar highlights the point that Prestige Classes are supposed to be customized classes anyway, and people should just collaborate to make up their own (though potentially using examples as a base to draw from).

I am back playing a 3e campaign that was mothballed many years ago and has been brought back. Our DM wants to keep it low level (1-10) and XP is basically being given out arbitrarily so that we can run our parties through the stacks of adventures he's gotten ideas from over the years. Anywho, inspired by our notions here, I proposed that we take normal classes for our first 5 levels, and then the last 5 we can just write our own "prestige" classes (and we'll be reasonable and keep the DM on board). Everyone has been fairly enthusiastic about this notion.

I'm happy since my illusionist with necromantic leanings is going to basically be a playable pale master (animate undead and replace my arm with a necrolimb, mostly as flavor as I continue to do my illusionist schtick) rather than be stuck having to use the crappy T&B PrC.

[Maxus]

That sounds interesting. Might even be a good project--taking some of the official D&D PrCs with a decent concept and turning them into something playable.

[Red_Rob]

Have you looked at the PrCs in the tomes? Boatman of the Styx, Bone Rider, Death Knight, Demon Samurai, Dragon Disciple, Dragon Lancer, Dungeon Veteran, Elothar, Legendary Strategist, and Maelstrom of Fiery Ki are all pretty awesome.

Yes, I've read all the Tome PrC's and they do rock. The problem is that because the Tome's weren't originally written as "let's do D&D right" but rather as patch fixes to things that bugged Frank & K they have a slightly weird set of priorities. The Prestige classes are nearly all from the Tome of Necromancy or the Tome of Fiends, so there is a strong bias towards necromantic or demon based kits. These aren't appropriate for every game and aren't nearly as generic as things like the "Arcane Archer". I was hoping to find out which of the more "normal" Prestige classes could hold their own in a Tome game.

Regarding simply making our own, as I mentioned this is our first 3.5 campaign. I was hoping we could use a few pre-done Prestige Classes until we have actually played at the higher levels and have more of an idea of how the game runs. Surely some of the WotC classes must have been made useful, even if only by accident?

[Koumei]

Well, Master of Shrouds and Ooze Master are good if you get them at the lowest level you can (level 3 required, so enter at 4, it expects you to enter at 7 or so and enjoy sucking). Then there's that one that gives your Beguiler the entire Cleric spell list and a few domains (granted, it's a long time before you get the Cleric list, but at full progression, so what?)

A long time ago, Soul Eater got a lot of love. These days, I dunno. Negative levels are a lovely way to kill people, but you'd need to plan for making as many natural attacks as possible - and even then, the fact is it says you can deal negative levels on a touch attack (Su). It doesn't state what kind of action, and when no action type is stated, you assume (Su) to be Standard, so in all likelihood you can only get one bad touch per round.

Oh! There's that Cleric PrCl that gives you a Wyrmling Dragon as a pet, the type being any that matches your personality. Simply make sure you go on about how your personality is charming and friendly, interested in befriending others to learn new things and so on, then demand a Prismatic Dragon. You now have a CR 14 [Awesome] subtype pet at level 8 or so. If this works for anyone, instead of them being given a (Brass? The metallic ones that never shut up), let me know.

Hmm... I suppose if you already pissed your life away by being something as worthless as a Hexblade or mediocre as a Duskblade, it wouldn't hurt you to throw your silly spellcasting progression aside in favour of gaining a +2 CR template on a 10 level PrCl (Dragon Disciple).

Sorcerers actually lose nothing from taking Alienist, as it's full casting with familiar progression, and their BAB, Skills and HD can't get any worse.

I'm sure there are actually some good options though, for classes that are already good and that don't rely on cheap tricks (early entry, DM-whim Dragon Roulette).

[Aktariel]

I would again point out that there is in fact an Eldritch Knight and an Arcane Archer that are both pretty playable in the Tome PDF, written by Iaimeki.

That said, Koumei has some good advice... good luck with the prismatic dragon, though.

Bo9S has a couple of decent PrCls as well, since the book itself doesn't totally suck.

[Koumei]

And depending how flexible your DM is, there's also Dragon Magazine - it has plenty of crap, but sometimes there's a gem. One of them had one for Tainted characters (you can qualify at level 2, entering it at third level, if you can spin a story about why a demon/devil/thing owns part of your soul. Play a Hellbred, DONE). The caster one is half progression, so not good, but the Tainted Warrior is very much "Why not?" You can get spell-like and supernatural abilities, extra limbs, stat boosts... it's generally a good deal.

If your DM is stoned, you could try for the Scion from a Mongoose book. You need to be a level 7 Cleric or Druid before entering, and then you get:

Cleric chassis, all good saves, full casting. Already you might as well take it. Drawback: you can't exit this class before taking all ten levels. Note that you have no intention of it.

First level: if you are a cleric of a god, you gain all the domains of your god (up to a maximum equal to your Charisma modifier). Also you can, once per day, cast a spell from your list without using a spell slot/preparing it ahead of time, with no components. Also once per day, you can tell someone what they roll on a d20. Yes. "Save or die, by the way you roll a 1, lol".

That's level 1.

After this, you gain spontaneous access to all your domains (pick a god from FR and take a high Cha and you should be spontaneously casting off a bigger list than a Sorcerer), some small stat boosts (+2 Wis and possibly one other stat too), some other minor tricks, changing to look identical to your god at level 9 (they're silent on whether this actually changes your race/stats), then at level 10 you get the Half-Fiend or Half-Celestial template for free. Sure, it's level 17 so w/e, but seriously, they just give it to you as an afterthought.

I had a DM not only allow this once but show it to me and actually suggest I take levels in it. No really.

Oh! Bear Warrior can be decent enough if you made some mistake and didn't think to play a caster. Or you could do it as a Were-Bear (not Carebear) Druid, so you can turn into a bear (race), a bear (wild shape) or a bear (class feature).

BW probably links nicely into... the shapechanging one. Which is also a good PrCl for Changelings, because you're doing this at will for no LA. And it's uncapped so you can slowly build your natural armour up to +200, and grow 4 claws, 2 slams, 10 tentacles, 1 ram, 1 gore, 2 bites, 1 tail slap, 1 tail sting, 2 wing attacks, 1 beard attack... am I missing any natural attacks here?

[K]

Just to mention, three fourths of spellcaster PrCs are worthless. If you aren't advancing spellcasting EVERY LEVEL, you are taking a huge hit in power.

[Blicero]

Just to mention, three fourths of spellcaster PrCs are worthless. If you aren't advancing spellcasting EVERY LEVEL, you are taking a huge hit in power.

Not necessarily. A lot of spellcaster PrCs don't not give caster levels until midway or late in their progression. The first 9 levels of something like Fiendblooded are totally viable and useful for sorcs and such.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Indeed. First level of Mindbender is pretty awesome.

[NineInchNall]

And then, of course, there are the classes that drop their only caster level at level 1, but are still totally worth taking after you've gotten 9th level spells. I'm specifically looking at Nightmare Spinner as a level 20 cap for a Shadowcraft Mage build.

[K]

Just to mention, three fourths of spellcaster PrCs are worthless. If you aren't advancing spellcasting EVERY LEVEL, you are taking a huge hit in power.

Not necessarily. A lot of spellcaster PrCs don't not give caster levels until midway or late in their progression. The first 9 levels of something like Fiendblooded are totally viable and useful for sorcs and such.

I assumed everyone undestood that my comment meant "every level you would take" needs to advance a caster level. Levels you don't take don't matter.

[Koumei]

The ones that piss me off are the "+1 caster level all levels except 1" and they don't give any features at 1. It's a penalty for not waiting until the party reached [character level = enough to hit level 2 in that PrCl] and only joining the game then.

See: Master of Shrouds. Lovely class if you enter at level 4, but damnation is it a pain on that actual 4th level.

[Danchild]

Regarding Soul Eater. The best way to maximise the Energy drain in not via Natural Attacks (unless you can turn into a squid or something). The Necrotic Focus weapon enhancement allows for the weapon to deliver the energy drain. This means iterative attacks and on a Karmic Striking, Robilars Gambit using melee lockdown build it can be devastating. It makes intimidation, poison and combat manauvers like trip/disarm/sunder harder to resist. Additionally, Energy Drain inflicts damage and gives the attacker temporary hit points. Add in a feat to give a bonus to the drain and the temp HP gained and it takes the edge off provoking hits all the time.

Not as good as a Dweamorkeeper, Io7V or Incantrix, but effective for melee.