Video Games

[Maxus]

"Master BadTouch".

Well, the angst in here makes a little sense. A seventeen-year-old kid who kills someone for the first time? It makes sense that he'd take it hard, and be very off-put that two other people will kill someone else without hesitation.

I haven't played Vesperia, but someone told me about Kratos Aurion from Symphonia being a HELL of a hidden boss in there.

[Roy]

Martial Artist: Either long enough for Psyche Up, or to max Focus for the stats.

I've heard that this pairs up well with an eventual transition into Gladiator. Do you concur with this opinion? Or instead pair up with Fighter first before going into Gladiator?

Um, you can do both. And there's no reason why you shouldn't. The stat bonuses stack. But yes, Tension is nice. Just watch those Disruptive Waves. They will ruin your day.

I have heard this from everyone that I know that has played the game. An all cloth party is NOT going to cut in in the post-game. It may not even cut it *during* the game.

What is your opinion about the other weapons? I'm assuming that Bows, Knives, and Hammers are still sub-par like they were in DQ8, but how are Boomerangs, Claws, Fisticuffs, Staves, Wands, and Whips?

What does your party look like? I'm assuming you have a Paladin, Gladiator, and a Sage - what is the class of your fourth team member?

The main reason why I have not commented on other weapons is because I do not use other weapons.

But speaking theorycraft here...

Fistcuffs: Completely pointless. In DQ8 you could at least do a Fisticuff challenge game by only putting skills into unarmed, and the class specific tree and just using those + level up abilities to get through the game. And while post game wasn't viable this way without insane grinding the main game was fine. In DQ9 you can't do this because classes either have Fisticuff OR Shield, not both. So either you're going unarmed without any actual unarmed skills (have fun doing 1 damage), everyone is a Martial Artist or Thief until you get more advanced classes that can fight unarmed, or you have to go and grind out 100 Fisticuff then switch to the class you actually want. And oh yeah, you'll need Shields too.

Bows: Eh. They look ok. Not great. It depends on how much damage Rain of Pain does, as I don't remember. If nothing else they're a better weapon for MP regaining than the alternative.

Knives: *shrugs* I just put 3 points here to unlock Ranger. I don't see a single thing in there that isn't better done by another skill tree.

Hammer: There are good hammer skills? O.o

Staves/wands: Here is the main problem, in short. The primary function of these items is MP stealing. Mana leech is a function of damage. You are a low to mid Strength class, using a relatively low attack weapon. See the problem yet? And this is why I haven't fooled with them.

Claws: I haven't checked this, but I heard Hard Claw is two hits at 150% damage each. If so it gets the same damage multiplier as Falcon Slash + (Uber) Falcon Sword. The difference is a Falcon Sword has an attack power of 12, Uber Falcon Sword has an attack power of 26, and Claws have... higher than 26. Of course the other skills aren't as great as swords. But there actually is some merit here.

Whips/Boomerangs: Notice that encounter sizes are relatively small? That hurts these weapons. And whips get hurt more when it's 3 enemies, in 3 groups of 1. Twin Dragon Lash is ok vs single targets, but not as good as the gold standard. But ultimately what really hurts these weapons is that most of the challenge comes from bosses... which are single targets. It's not like DQ8 where random battles can actually be harder than some bosses. (well, when that happens in 9, it's a small encounter size)

As for my party if you are assuming that you are assuming incorrectly.

My main character has 90 levels of Ranger, almost that many levels of Paladin, and every other class is in the 40s and 50s except Luminary, which I haven't touched. Every class specific tree is maxed except Luminary (not touched), Warrior (didn't care about Attack Attacker, but got everything else), and Minstrel (rank 2 only). I also maxed swords, shields, spears, and a random 3 points in knives just to open Ranger. And I'm sitting on about 200 skill points for when I care to put them somewhere. So about 1.5k skill points in total.

If you're waiting for the rest of the party well too bad, that's it. Yup, soloed this far.

Now as for my active class:

Minstrel was ok until I got something better.
Paladin is better in every way.
Priest is ok... mostly due to the better heals.
Ranger gets that and better stats though.
Sage is... a lot better than I thought. I'm growing to like it actually.

None of the other classes are really viable in a solo game due to lack of sufficient healing ability. Yeah, you can kill trash mobs, and metals but in any sustained fight you'll lose, because you can't heal yourself.

However note that all of my advice was aimed at those playing the game conventionally, as in with a party. And there Gladiators are pretty fucking sweet at killing things, Armamentalist abuses elemental weaknesses like crazy (and as these are all skills, you can class change after), Sages are great party healers etc.

[Ganbare Gincun]

If you're waiting for the rest of the party well too bad, that's it. Yup, soloed this far.

You're the only person I know that has done that.

Finally got to sit down and play last night. Had a friend come over with their DS and partied with them. We didn't even need to hop onto the WEP guest network - the DSes just directly communicated with each other. Picked up about 28000k gold, a Falcon Sword, the Metal Slash ability, and leveled up Minstrel from level 8 to level 35. It was much smoother and much more fun then I was expecting, running around and slaughtering Metal-Class Slimes.

Also started playing Monster Rancher DS. Managed to get to C Class on my first monster (Tiger/Tiger), almost to B class. The graphics are MUCH better then what I was expecting based on the screen shots online, and the game is primarily based off of Monster Rancher 2. They even have Colt (your assistant from MR2) serve as your mailman, and I've been told that they have "legacy bosses" from MR2 that you can fight later on in the higher level S-Class Tournaments. I haven't gotten to combining yet, but I hear it's much easier then before - simpler formula for determining stats, and age doesn't affect the quality of the new monster.

They aren't releasing the MR2 strategy guide here in the US - I'm hoping that the folks at Monster Rancher Metropolis are able to translate the Perfect Guide and write everything up in a FAQ online.

[Roy]

If you're waiting for the rest of the party well too bad, that's it. Yup, soloed this far.

You're the only person I know that has done that.

Finally got to sit down and play last night. Had a friend come over with their DS and partied with them. We didn't even need to hop onto the WEP guest network - the DSes just directly communicated with each other. Picked up about 28000k gold, a Falcon Sword, the Metal Slash ability, and leveled up Minstrel from level 8 to level 35. It was much smoother and much more fun then I was expecting, running around and slaughtering Metal-Class Slimes.

Soloing it is a lot easier than you might think. The main game ends up being harder (not a bad thing, as it's super easy otherwise), but the post game? Actually easier in most ways. Now I'll eventually ceiling out, around higher level Legacy bosses. And I'm ok with that.

But even on a conventional game you're going to be doing a fair amount of soloing, as Grotto levels are based entirely on your Hero's level, Hero's Max Revocations, and the level of the previous map. So basically if you want good maps in a hurry, solo grind your Hero. And solo leveling other party members will also get them up in a hurry. 1 MKS and they're at 29, 1 more and they're at 36, then 3 levels/2 kills all the way to 99. And PKJs are twice as fast.

Even so, again my advice was aimed towards a party, based on common sense + seeing what other people are talking about doing + seeing actual videos of these tactics at work.

[Crissa]

Roy's advice is all solid...

...But why level grind? There's no point to it.

-Crissa

[Roy]

Roy's advice is all solid...

...But why level grind? There's no point to it.

-Crissa

This is a discussion about optimizing DQ9. Which means we're talking about ways to do exactly that. Now if you don't want to do that, that's fine. You can go talk about something else. But as optimizing DQ9 does mean focused level grinding...

[Ganbare Gincun]

Roy's advice is all solid...

...But why level grind? There's no point to it.

-Crissa

This is a discussion about optimizing DQ9. Which means we're talking about ways to do exactly that. Now if you don't want to do that, that's fine. You can go talk about something else. But as optimizing DQ9 does mean focused level grinding...

...and to be honest, it's not nearly as onerous a task if you're in multiplayer mode running dungeons or hunting down metal slime-class monsters. I've already had friends over at my apartment a few times now to run treasure map dungeons and hunt down slimes, and it's been pretty fun. In many ways in reminds me of an MMO, minus the annoying and retarded crap.

[Crissa]

Optimizing has nothing to do with level grinding. There's no reason to grind anything, what are you getting out of it?

-Crissa

[Roy]

Optimizing has nothing to do with level grinding. There's no reason to grind anything, what are you getting out of it?

-Crissa

Facepalm. If you can't pay attention, then GTFO. Thanks.

And it is kind of MMO like, except with more endgame content than actual MMOs. Which is pretty funny actually.

After all, when you can go from 1-99 in 1 hour, it's really hard to regard that as too long.

[Koumei]

I'm not sure "1-99 in an hour" counts as grinding though. I mean, yes, in Disgaea 2 I had to level some people up to 1,000 or so to beat some challenges. That took an hour total. I don't think that constitutes a grind. More a slide, actually. Or a rocket. <3 Cave of Ordeals.

"Grind" always came across as meaning the kind of thing where you're just doing the same shit over and over to level up/whatever, for a great length of time, and are completely fucking bored with it.

[Roy]

I'm not sure "1-99 in an hour" counts as grinding though. I mean, yes, in Disgaea 2 I had to level some people up to 1,000 or so to beat some challenges. That took an hour total. I don't think that constitutes a grind. More a slide, actually. Or a rocket. <3 Cave of Ordeals.

"Grind" always came across as meaning the kind of thing where you're just doing the same shit over and over to level up/whatever, for a great length of time, and are completely fucking bored with it.

That's my point. You can facestab a few MKS and get a class to level 50, then repeat for all the other classes, then facestab about that many MKS to get one class to 99. And that's good enough for most endgame content.

[Crissa]

Of course, doing the same thing repetitively is grinding. Why do it?

You could just play the game. Then be happy when it's done.

Or you can grind up your characters to... Read the game... Then do something...

Or you could skip the grinding and just play the damn game sequentially.

-Crissa

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Update on D2:

Diablo just beat the living snot out of me . That's... something I'm not used to for chapter bosses in this game (although the fact that his name is the title of the game should have tipped me off...)

I may need to grind out a couple levels again, as single player is not great when it comes to getting optimal gear. (And I refuse to use a trainer or any sort of cheat until I beat the game legit).

[RandomCasualty2]

I never liked Diablo 2 for the reason that you could permanently fuck up your character if you assigned your points wrong. Any game like that should have character rebuilding, so you don't totally make your character suck.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I believe you get one, from what I've seen. But yeah, one isn't enough.

I have consulted the interblag and have found a decent build for PvM play as a summoner necro, but Diablo is too beefy for myself. Then again, according to the guide I consulted I'm also 6 levels below the recommended range to fight him, and I think that would make a huge difference .

[shau]

Diablo is the huge sticking point for a summoner necro. He just deals out way too fucking much area effect damage. If you have decrepify and a clay golem, that can help a lot.

Your level is really important when fighting him. The first time I did it I got smashed again and again. the second time I played a necro I had played through the whole game on players 8 the experience was enough to make him trivial.

So basically just level more.

[Zinegata]

Iron Maiden can also help against Diablo, in combination with using minions to soak up the melee hits.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I might try the player 8 trick to gain exp if I can justify it to myself (Is it really a cheat if it makes the game harder?) Right now, it takes ages to gain a level. I did every quest in Hell and I gained exactly one level. And I'm level 28 while the guides I looked at recommend 35+. It's amazing, I was over-leveled when I entered Act 4, I wonder how I fucked up there?

[Kaelik]

I might try the player 8 trick to gain exp if I can justify it to myself (Is it really a cheat if it makes the game harder?) Right now, it takes ages to gain a level. I did every quest in Hell and I gained exactly one level. And I'm level 28 while the guides I looked at recommend 35+. It's amazing, I was over-leveled when I entered Act 4, I wonder how I fucked up there?

Nope. That's just how it works. I was overleveled all the way into Act four, and then Act four shits all over your XP, and you are underleveled against Diablo unless you grind for years.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Yeah, I was level 27 when I killed Duriel, and gained maybe one level all of act 3 and one in act 4. Although my exp moves perceptively when I kill stuff in Act 4, I will probably grind there.

[DragonChild]

I might try the player 8 trick to gain exp if I can justify it to myself (Is it really a cheat if it makes the game harder?)

The "Set the game difficulty for more players than what you have" trick? Not cheating, IMO, as if it was an online character you could duplicate it by starting a game and going off on your own ways.

And yeah, act 4 is a bitch. I'd recommend getting resistances appropriate to whatever one of diablo's attacks you have problems dodging. Most characters seem to only need fire or lightning, in my experience. Going after Mephisto and (the fallen angel guy in act 4, forget the name) are both a good source of loot. And I think there are optional dungeons hidden in act 4. At least, once you down diablo, act 5 isn't as nasty except for one or two bosses.

In other news, anyone here playing League of Legends and Borderlands? League of Legends is a fun game, mired by an absolutely godfuckingawful "Money=power" system and a huge grind for power. Still, it's the second-best dotalike I've played and the only one with an actual functioning community. I also just picked up Borderlands, anyone playing that?

[Orion]

I love League of Legends to death, since I can play it with my little bro back home and my highschool friends. I'm totally new to competitive gaming though, so I can't say that it's better than everything else out there, but it is pretty f'ing fun.

And the matchmaking software is good enough that buying a bunch of the power-up runes didn't noticeably improve my win rate. And I got them all by grinding anyway.

[DragonChild]

I guess I should have said, my username on LoL is Karrius if you're up for some arranged games.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

And yeah, act 4 is a bitch. I'd recommend getting resistances appropriate to whatever one of diablo's attacks you have problems dodging.

I don't have an issue with dodging Diablo's attacks really. My minions and merc do though. After grinding a few levels I tried again, and my minions spent time running back and forth over the starpoints around Diablo and refused to engage. Seeing as how I'm a summoner necro and I don't actually have much I can do considering that Diablo won't leave that star thing and stand on some corpses for me so I can blow them up (and he kills my minions before they pull their boney heads out of their asses and stop getting stuck on the scenery). Also, I have the reflexes of a slug and I can't react fast enough to make more golems, raise more minions, etc when they die in one hit (can be mitigated by spamming Skeleton mage until you have all ice mages and keep Decrepify on Diablo, but he still kills anything he hits, so if he novas I'm out of minions.) As of yet, I'm not sure I've harmed Diablo at all, his life bar has never moved down even a fraction.

I'll grind some more levels tomorrow, but if I can't beat him I probably will concede defeat and not play anymore.

[Manxome]

When I played a summoner necro in Diablo 2 (not the most recent version), I found that against some bosses, and most especially Diablo, my best option seemed to be to ignore my minions and hireling and just snipe him with Bone Spear while dodging all his attacks.

The chapter bosses seem to get a bunch of completely arbitrary bonuses against minions for the sole purpose of screwing summoners. I'm pretty sure they flat-out tell you on their web site that act bosses deal double damage and take half damage from minions, or something like that, but they also seem to get even more bullshit advantages stacked on top of that.

I recall a friend complaining that his level ~40 necromancer with skeletons buffed out the wazoo would still have them one-shot en masse when he went back and fought Andariel (act 1 boss) on normal. It used to be possible to beat Duriel by summoning a blood golem and keeping iron maiden on him (Duriel attacks golem, iron maiden counts as golem attacking Duriel, blood golem heals two thirds of his max life reactively every time he gets hit), but I think last time I tried, the blood golem got arbitrarily insta-gibbed or wasn't allowed to heal or something (even though all those mechanics still appeared to work the same way against all other enemies).

I think the designers must feel that if your minions kill the boss for you, then it's not an appropriately difficult boss fight, therefore they feel justified in cheating any way they can imagine to prevent your minions from killing the boss.

So anyway, I recommend Bone Spear. You don't need a lot of points in it (though if you can pick up a wand that boosts it just for this fight, that helps), you just need to stay away from Diablo so you can dodge his attacks reliably while hitting him often enough that his out-of-combat regeneration doesn't kick in.

League of Legends is a fun game, mired by an absolutely godfuckingawful "Money=power" system and a huge grind for power.

That's an interesting comment. I haven't played League of Legends much, but my understanding is that the game's primary goal is to accumulate power (mostly in the form of XP and gold) faster than the enemy team so you get a snowballing advantage and murder them. That's what the game is about.

I certainly think I would enjoy the game more if it were primarily about "pushing" the battle lines rather than "farming", but I am pretty sure that it is intentionally and unashamedly about farming. And I've played it even less, but I'm pretty sure that DotA All-Stars was the same, or even moreso (it went so far as to encourage killing your own allies to deny gold and XP to enemies).

Saying that it's "mired" by a money=power system suggests that you think that isn't the entire point of the game..?


If you want to try a game with a similar format but that is about territory control rather than farming, you could take a look at one of my WarCraft 3 custom maps called Fields of Stained Snow. You can find it here, about 2 screens down the list. I haven't worked on it in a long time, though, and DotA fans tend to hate it, because (of course) it's about pushing and territory control instead of farming and killing enemy heroes.