Same-Game Testing: Rogue v. Factotum

[ubernoob]

The factotum is a shitty spellcaster with a floating feat. Item creation. That brings a lot more to the party than rogue.

You are not talking about Factotum. You are talking about chameleon, which is actually a fairly cool class.

As for the flask rogue who gives a fuck? It may as well be the flask ninja, the flask scout or the flask spellthief. If your gonna spam alchemical items, you may as well play a wizard and shrink item/telekenisis. Fuck, the factotum can use the same tactic at a higher level and not be commited to that particular build.

1) Ninjas and spellthieves suck. They have fewer skill points, less bonus dice (note the halflling rogue substitution level), and generally just suck ass.
2) Wizards are awesome. This is common knowledge.

Making a pronouncement that the rogue is somehow better because it is core is a null argument when comparing it to a non-core class.

Straw man. Everything that makes a factotum viable makes the rogue an even more unstoppable death machine. If you take away everything that makes the factotum remotely viable, the rogue is *still* a death machine against most of the monster manual.

Damage is not greater than versatility. Options are power. Factotum has more options than rogue.

Again, nobody gives two shits about versatility. Power is power. Versatility is versatility. Wizards and clerics are powerful because they are powerful. The fact that they are *also* versatile is another issue. If people thought versatility was power, people wouldn't think frenzied berserkers are good. You are wrong and stupid.

The whole "I can sneak attack all day" argument is made of fail. It reminds me of the old Fighter vs Wizard argument.

"B-but that fighter can swing a sword all day! The Wizard has to prepare..."

Never mind the resources involved. Anything immune to critical hits is going to ignore those few extra d6's. Anything incoporeal is going to ignore missiles flying through it. Anything that can fly or teleport can easily stay out the rogue's range of efficacy. Anything with concealment is immune to sneak attack. Claiming that the one strength of the rogue functions all the time is a fucking lie.

100% of this argument applies to the Iajutsu factotum, but more so because the factotum also needs to worry about being in melee.

And no, factotum spellcasting is so shitty that we're not even going to discuss it as a combat option.

The factotum can have tools for a variety of occasions. Never mind that they are shitty tools. Never mind there are shitty conditions on those shitty tools. The same can not be said of the rogue. The proponents of rogue in this debate keep relying on the fact that rogues can deal conditional damage, that somehow that makes the rogue more versatile than the factotum. That is not a strength. It is a major limitation.

A variety of shitty tools. A rogue has 1 good tool that with the addition of ONE book (spell compendium) works on every monster ever except oozes (nobody cares) and elementals (add on a second book to take savvy rogue and all the sudden elementals aren't a problem either).

You have never played EITHER class. You don't know what you're talking about. Shut the fuck up before you embarrass yourself more.

[Kaelik]

True story of the Factotum.

JanonK claimed Factotums are way better then Rogues. I disagreed. It was agreed to enter into a sweet badass campaign run through using both classes and some other people.

JaronK made a Factotum with Iajitsu Focus, Item Familiar, and using the War Beast Template. I made a Rogue using Iajitsu focus, Item Familiar, and the War Beast Template.

He complained about how it was unfair of me to use Item Familiar and War Beast better than him, and Iajitsu almost as well, because those are Factotum tricks.

Game never made it off the ground... I wonder why?

[RandomCasualty2]

He complained about how it was unfair of me to use Item Familiar and War Beast better than him, and Iajitsu almost as well, because those are Factotum tricks.

Uhh... what?

How is any of that stuff better suited to a factotum to make it a "factotum trick"?

[Kaelik]

He complained about how it was unfair of me to use Item Familiar and War Beast better than him, and Iajitsu almost as well, because those are Factotum tricks.

Uhh... what?

How is any of that stuff better suited to a factotum to make it a "factotum trick"?

That's the point. JaronK claims Factotums are good because X. I demonstrate that Rogues can also use X, even better than a Factotum even. JaronK whines like a bitch about how it's not fair.

[Danchild]

lol. No discussing spellcasting. Very selective arguments. I do not give a flying fuck about your dispute with this JaronK. I am stating facts as I see them.

Factotum offers more to a party during a campaign than rogue. It can dumpster dive with the best of them. The fact that it's class features alone allow for spellcasting and busting the action economy make it better than a situational damage boost. Seriously, which is more powerful? A +11d6 to damage, or access to the wizards spell list? What about extra actions? The fact that all the factotums class features run off a single attribute is just gravy.

[Saxony]

JaronK made a Factotum with Iajitsu Focus, Item Familiar, and using the War Beast Template. I made a Rogue using Iajitsu focus, Item Familiar, and the War Beast Template.

I didn't realize Rogues got Iaijutsu Focus. Did you do something other than vanilla rogue?

[Mask_De_H]

JaronK made a Factotum with Iajitsu Focus, Item Familiar, and using the War Beast Template. I made a Rogue using Iajitsu focus, Item Familiar, and the War Beast Template.

I didn't realize Rogues got Iaijutsu Focus. Did you do something other than vanilla rogue?

I'm guessing Able Learner, or something from OA.

[Kaelik]

Iajitsu is a skill, and therefore, can be cross classed. And then I added bullshit bonuses to it on top from Item Familiar, because JaronK had to have his fucking Item Familiar so bad that it was unfair to deprive him of it, so instead I just used it better than him by having it cast Grease every round and boost my Iajitsu and UMD.

lol. No discussing spellcasting. Very selective arguments. I do not give a flying fuck about your dispute with this JaronK. I am stating facts as I see them.

Factotum offers more to a party during a campaign than rogue. It can dumpster dive with the best of them. The fact that it's class features alone allow for spellcasting and busting the action economy make it better than a situational damage boost. Seriously, which is more powerful? A +11d6 to damage, or access to the wizards spell list? What about extra actions? The fact that all the factotums class features run off a single attribute is just gravy.

+11d6+17 damage on eight attacks, and 2 Str damage on each attack, even to people immune to SA, vs... Access to the Wizards spell list up to level 6.

You know who else has level 6 Wizard spell access? The fucking Bard.

The Factotum can't dumpster dive with the best of them, because when the Artificer is one level ahead of the Wizard, and the Archivist is the same level, and the Chameleon is one level behind, and the Spells to Power Erudite is a level behind, the Factotum is two and a half levels behind and can't even get things that are off the Druid or Cleric Domains, much less off the really good dumpster dive lists like Trapsmith or even Bard.

[ubernoob]

lol. No discussing spellcasting. Very selective arguments. I do not give a flying fuck about your dispute with this JaronK. I am stating facts as I see them.

Factotum offers more to a party during a campaign than rogue. It can dumpster dive with the best of them. The fact that it's class features alone allow for spellcasting and busting the action economy make it better than a situational damage boost. Seriously, which is more powerful? A +11d6 to damage, or access to the wizards spell list? What about extra actions? The fact that all the factotums class features run off a single attribute is just gravy.

Show me a single time a factotum's spellcasting will ever make a difference in against an equal CR opponent. That's how laughable it is. It's a cute trick, not a combat feature.

[Saxony]

lol. No discussing spellcasting. Very selective arguments. I do not give a flying fuck about your dispute with this JaronK. I am stating facts as I see them.

Factotum offers more to a party during a campaign than rogue. It can dumpster dive with the best of them. The fact that it's class features alone allow for spellcasting and busting the action economy make it better than a situational damage boost. Seriously, which is more powerful? A +11d6 to damage, or access to the wizards spell list? What about extra actions? The fact that all the factotums class features run off a single attribute is just gravy.

Show me a single time a factotum's spellcasting will ever make a difference in against an equal CR opponent. That's how laughable it is. It's a cute trick, not a combat feature.

Cute trick or not, now you must be facetious. You think factotum SLA's will never "make a difference" against an equal CR opponent?

Wow.

Never? Really?

[ubernoob]

lol. No discussing spellcasting. Very selective arguments. I do not give a flying fuck about your dispute with this JaronK. I am stating facts as I see them.

Factotum offers more to a party during a campaign than rogue. It can dumpster dive with the best of them. The fact that it's class features alone allow for spellcasting and busting the action economy make it better than a situational damage boost. Seriously, which is more powerful? A +11d6 to damage, or access to the wizards spell list? What about extra actions? The fact that all the factotums class features run off a single attribute is just gravy.

Show me a single time a factotum's spellcasting will ever make a difference in against an equal CR opponent. That's how laughable it is. It's a cute trick, not a combat feature.

Cute trick or not, now you must be facetious. You think factotum SLA's will never "make a difference" against an equal CR opponent?

Wow.

Never? Really?

Show, don't tell. Really, show me.

[Username17]

If people cared about Factotum level casting, Wizards would be fucking around with those spells that let them imbue spell slots into their familiars and Clerics would prepare Imbue With Spell Ability every day. But they don't, because casting small amounts of very low level spells is not a serious level appropriate combat option.

-Username17

[Saxony]

Perhaps you think you are saying something else than what you have actually typed.

"Show me a single time a factotum's spellcasting will ever make a difference in against an equal CR opponent. That's how laughable it is. It's a cute trick, not a combat feature."

You're saying Factotum's spells cannot ever make any kind of difference in an equal CR fight?

Really?

Not one spell. Not a single bit of difference. Against any equal CR opponent. Not ever.

Really?

Fireball. That does make a bit of difference, however slight. I think I've provided an example.

Now, you can certainly amend your statement from "make a difference" to "make a large difference" or perhaps even "stop an entire encounter".

And you'd still be stupid because you said "ever". I can think of an infinite set of encounters a factotum's spells could instantly end.

Now, you can certainly amend your statement from "ever" to "a decent part of the time" or even to "more than 50% of the time" instead of "ever". Because that's just a trivial case. Shivering Touch + Dragon. Done.

Maybe you just don't know how powerful single spells can be. In that case, I would advise you to start learning DnD the way it is actually played at levels 7-20 or below.

My protest with your statement is the glaringly obvious lack of understanding of DnD 3.5e spellcasting and English in general. The answer to your question is so trivially obvious, but you asked it anyway. That means you either thought you were asking a different question than what you typed or you are an idiot.

I think your problem is a combination of both cases.

The Factotum may suck terribly. The Rogue may outperform it handily. JaronK may be an idiot. But not knowing how a spell could "ever make a difference" in an equal CR fight...

We are talking about DnD 3.5 edition spellcasting, correct? I apologize if the conversation suddenly shifted to an edition where the Factotum doesn't exist.

[Mask_De_H]

Saxony, for most cases, betting it all on one spell that isn't even properly scaled to a cohort's casting isn't going to be effective against level appropriate opposition on a regular basis. Just because Shivering Touch can fuck a dragon when it goes off does not immediately absolve or validate a character who's big trick is as such 4 levels after the main casters have moved on from that.

You're being facetious.

[Kaelik]

Protip: Hyperbole exists. Get used to it.

EDIT: Now how about instead of making an entire post where you take hyperbole completely literally and whine about it, you instead admit you were totally wrong, and that Factotums can't dumpster dive worth shit, because in addition to being two and a half levels behind, they also suck giant donkey dick by picking off the Wizard list, the one list that by definition is never dumpster diving, since even Clerics get spells before Wizards.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Protip: Hyperbole exists. Get used to it.

[ubernoob]

Shivering Touch + Dragon. Done.

Let's play the dumpster diving know your encounters ahead of time game just for a second. OK, you cast shivering touch (sorc/wiz 3). You can do this once per day at eighth level. It deals 3d6 dex damage. Now, you have a slightly higher than 50% chance of actually dealing 10 dex damage that you need.

So, at level 8, once per day, you have a 50/50 shot of dex damaging a dragon to inaction. If you fail, it fucking kills you because you just cast a range:touch spell.

So, you can rocket tag a dragon. Once per day. And you only have a 60% or so chance at succeeding anyways. Now, once you hit CR 10 dragons (two levels from now), you start running into loredrake (dragons of ebberon) dragons. These guys have at least CL 5. That means every last one of them has scintillating scales, so your trick won't work any more.

So, let's look at that.

For exactly two levels you can one shot dragons by using one of the most commonly banned tricks that wizards got three levels earlier (and could do better back then).

Two levels, one creature type, and you had to choose that spell as your top level effect.

One round a day you have a 50% chance of doing anything meaningful IF you dumpster dived and knew the encounters ahead of time.

Watch me fucking care.

Edit: Oh, and it doesn't work on white dragons.

[Leress]

Edit: Oh, and it doesn't work on white dragons.

Unless you take the feat, Energy Substitution. But since Factos are feat starved as it is that would be unlikely.

[Kaelik]

Edit: Oh, and it doesn't work on white dragons.

Unless you take the feat, Energy Substitution. But since Factos are feat starved as it is that would be unlikely.

Actually, Factotums can't even apply metamagic feats, not even by Rods, to any of their "Spells" so in fact, no beating White Dragons for you (Likewise no maximizing or empowering Shivering Touch).

[Danchild]

I have already provided an example of an effective use of spells. Back when Ubernoob was was nuthugging the flask ninja.

Planar Binding.

How many times can a rogue cast that a day?

[Kaelik]

I have already provided an example of an effective use of spells. Back when Ubernoob was was nuthugging the flask ninja.

Planar Binding.

How many times can a rogue cast that a day?

Planar Binding? Well, level 6, so you can cast it once a day at level ...15? Don't have my books on me.

Then you also have to use a Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor, and then roll against SR, and the roll the Will save.

So that's what? 20% chance once per day to get a CR 12 creature at best? What are you going to do with it? Run messages? It's not useful in a fight or anything, I guess at level 15 you can enter the Wish eceonomy, but if you aren't playing by Tome Rules, everyone else had Rings of Three Wishes at level 3, and used them to Wish for more rings.

[Leress]

Planar Binding.

How many times can a rogue cast that a day?

Planar Binding? Well, level 6, so you can cast it once a day at level ...15? Don't have my books on me.

Edit: I found my book. You are right

[Danchild]

15

lesser planar binding at 13

4th level spells at 10. Wave hello to polymorph.

Of course, if the DM is dropping care packages on you, that shit really does not matter, does it Kaelik?

[Kaelik]

Planar Binding.

How many times can a rogue cast that a day?

Planar Binding? Well, level 6, so you can cast it once a day at level ...15? Don't have my books on me.

Edit: I found my book. You are right

There's some formulaic way of telling what level a Factotum gets spell level X, but even though it's really simple, it's not worth remembering, so I usually just play it by ear.

[Danchild]

Actually, Factotums can't even apply metamagic feats, not even by Rods, to any of their "Spells" so in fact, no beating White Dragons for you (Likewise no maximizing or empowering Shivering Touch).

False.