Same-Game Testing: Rogue v. Factotum

[Kaelik]

Rapid Shot + Haste + Perfect TWFing on a +12 BAB. Or if you don't want to get into the bonus feats argument:

TWFing + Improved + Item that grants greater +Haste +Rapid Shot.

If you start bringing in Divine Power you can get up to 10.

You know that Iaijutsu Focus doesn't apply to ranged attacks, right?

Technically yes it does, because it applies to any attack made with a melee weapon you just drew. So if you just drew and improvised melee weapon that happened to be an acid flask, then iajitsu would apply to the next attack made with that flask, even if it is a ranged attack.

However, my eight attacks for 12d6+17 damage and 2 Str damage each at level 17 didn't involve any Iajitsu focus at all, because being a whiny bitch who abuses the actual raw of Iajitsu focus is a little bit worse than being a whiny bitch who insists he has to use Iajitsu focus in a 3.5 non Oriental Adventures game or the DM is being unfair and nerfing his character.

You could choose to go for more damage per attack, but fewer attacks, and that's viable too as a rogue, I just like more attacks with better success because it helps me completely own face on elementals and people with fortification. (and be at range).

You could even go for more attacks and less damage per attack by bringing in Sword Sage and Teflammor Shadow Lord. But that's not strictly Rogue, so I'm focusing on straight Rogue for the purposes of this conversation right now.

[Koumei]

Oh come on, if the DM is allowing all kinds of bullshit, you take a Scourge (Dragon Magazine) for a Rogue:

"1d3 damage, for every attack you get, you may make three attacks."

So that's what, six attacks at level one and upwards from there?

[Danchild]

So Danchild, you want to explain to me where I ever brought up multiclassing? Or where you just completely wrong?

Rogues get 10d6 SA maximum. In order to gain 11d6 and spellcasting require multiclassing. Obtuse fuck.

[Username17]

So Danchild, you want to explain to me where I ever brought up multiclassing? Or where you just completely wrong?

Rogues get 10d6 SA maximum. In order to gain 11d6 and spellcasting require multiclassing. Obtuse fuck.

He didn't say "plus 11d6 sneak attack" he said "11 d6". As in: inflicting an extra 9d6 sneak attack on a 2d6 weapon like an acid flask. Now kindly shut the fuck up while the adults are talking.

Although of course you can get 11d6 of sneak attack by taking sneak attack increasers. You don't actually need multiclassing. Especially not if you're using JaronK style bullshit and actually taking crap from UA. Fuck, there's a +1d6 Sneak Attack feat in that book that can be repeated for credit. It's total bullshit, but so is Item Familiar.

-Username17

[Korwin]

So Danchild, you want to explain to me where I ever brought up multiclassing? Or where you just completely wrong?

Rogues get 10d6 SA maximum. In order to gain 11d6 and spellcasting require multiclassing. Obtuse fuck.

Wrong.
There is a stance in ToB which live 2d6 sneak attack.
Not shure if Kaelik used this method.

I may have Misses the Part about spellcasting...

[Zeezy]

Actually, there's a Halfling Rogue substitution level out of RotW that ubernoob referenced back at the top of page 3. It increases ranged SA damage by 1d6 while decreasing melee SA damage by 1d6. They get it at level 1. This allows 11d6 SA at level 19 with zero multiclassing.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Actually, there's a Halfling Rogue substitution level out of RotW that ubernoob referenced back at the top of page 3. It increases ranged SA damage by 1d6 while decreasing melee SA damage by 1d6. They get it at level 1. This allows 11d6 SA at level 19 with zero multiclassing.

Yeah, but you'd probably have to take the melee sneak attack value when throwing improvised melee weapons.

[Kaelik]

So Danchild, you want to explain to me where I ever brought up multiclassing? Or where you just completely wrong?

Rogues get 10d6 SA maximum. In order to gain 11d6 and spellcasting require multiclassing. Obtuse fuck.

1) I never claimed any spellcasting for the example Rogue. You think I did, because you are stupid. But I did not. Go ahead and try to point to an example.

2) You are retarded. Rogues get more than 10d6 SA all the time. Even ignoring the UA feat, Someone already mentioned the halfling Rogue substitution level in this thread, and how it gives +2d6 SA at level 1 with thrown weapons. Not to mention the Rogue's Vest. There's also an ACF that adds +1d6 damage and allows you to make SA damage a different element than your attack, so you do 1d6 Acid and 13d6+19 Fire damage if you are facing something immune to acid.

But the only things I was counting where a level 17 Rogue with halfling substitution, Rogue's Vest, and Craven. Could add more, but figured 12d6+17 on all eight attacks at level 17 was good enough.

@Frank, actually I said +11d6+17, so I was saying ontop of weapon damage, also Acid Flasks are 1d6, I assuming you are confusing it with 3.0 or Alchemist Flasks.

[Danchild]

He didn't say "plus 11d6 sneak attack" he said "11 d6". As in: inflicting an extra 9d6 sneak attack on a 2d6 weapon like an acid flask. Now kindly shut the fuck up while the adults are talking.

Although of course you can get 11d6 of sneak attack by taking sneak attack increasers. You don't actually need multiclassing. Especially not if you're using JaronK style bullshit and actually taking crap from UA. Fuck, there's a +1d6 Sneak Attack feat in that book that can be repeated for credit. It's total bullshit, but so is Item Familiar.

-Username17

acid flask is 1d6. No explaination for the +17BAB and 6th level spell access. You want o drop feats and stances into the mix, fine. But that is not an honest description of the abilities of rogue. It is circumstancial modifiers that can be applied to any class. You may as well say the fighter is more powerful than a wizard because of the artifact sword he wields.

At no time has Kaelik attempted to engage in an honest discussion. You want to nuthug him because he kisses you arse, that is ok. But do not take a condescending tone and affirm his fallacious posturing if you wish to retain any credibility in this debate.

[Kaelik]

Actually, there's a Halfling Rogue substitution level out of RotW that ubernoob referenced back at the top of page 3. It increases ranged SA damage by 1d6 while decreasing melee SA damage by 1d6. They get it at level 1. This allows 11d6 SA at level 19 with zero multiclassing.

Yeah, but you'd probably have to take the melee sneak attack value when throwing improvised melee weapons.

I know Carthaz, isn't it a beautiful rules exploit. I only actually mention it when someone starts blabbing about RAW and how their Factotum is so totally bitchin. I've never actually used it, but it's nice to know that if I wanted I could make a flask rogue with Iajitsu.

[RobbyPants]

No explaination for the +17BAB and 6th level spell access.

Where did he say BAB +17? He had 17 added to the damage.

If you need clarification on their numbers, you might want to just ask, rather than call people dishonest fucks and find out their numbers are legit. Being a prick and being constantly wrong makes you look like a stupid prick.

If you were right, you could attempt to pull of arrogant prick, but you haven't been doing that.

[Leress]

The factotum is a shitty spellcaster with a floating feat. Item creation. That brings a lot more to the party than rogue.

Dan, where are you getting this from. I looked over the class and don't see it.

Another problem I see with the class is that since no one really knows what an "encounter" is in 3.5 than using it outside of combat makes it very difficult to use most of its abilities.

The thing about Iajutsu Focus with the Facto is that it's going to get one good use out of it per day. And even with that the Rogue will still out damage it.

The Facto has too few inspiration points and too few uses of their abilities at any given level. If you use your abilities you can't use your spells for anything since you most likely not have enough for the encounter.

It's based off having flashes of inspiration and it can really only nova and even that gets limited.

The Rogue is a lot more consistent and reliable with its abilities.

[NineInchNall]

Well, given the Font Of Inspiration fueled action-nova every encounter (checked the wording in Dungeonscape last night*) beats anything the Rogue can do. Outside of that, I'd say the Rogue edges past the Facto simply by virtue of having more feat options and a base source of damage.

I would like to see a proper Same Game test, though. One done without Fonts, flasks, Unearthed Arcana, or mixing setting-specific material.


*The controversial part was that the wording says you gain X inspiration points every encounter. It doesn't say that you lose them at the end of the encounter, and it also doesn't say that you have a maximum number of inspiration points, as far as I can remember. So the idea was to count every social encounter as an encounter, gain the points, and just hoard them.

[RobbyPants]

So the idea was to count every social encounter as an encounter, gain the points, and just hoard them.

Or just bully a commoner or kobold or somethine else that will either lose or run.

Bob the factotum: * shoves a commoner and draws a sword *

Commoner: "Ahhhhh!" * runs for life *

Bob: "That was inspiring!"


And who says the factotum is a poorly written class?

[Kaelik]

acid flask is 1d6. No explaination for the +17BAB and 6th level spell access. You want o drop feats and stances into the mix, fine. But that is not an honest description of the abilities of rogue. It is circumstancial modifiers that can be applied to any class. You may as well say the fighter is more powerful than a wizard because of the artifact sword he wields.

At no time has Kaelik attempted to engage in an honest discussion. You want to nuthug him because he kisses you arse, that is ok. But do not take a condescending tone and affirm his fallacious posturing if you wish to retain any credibility in this debate.

At no time have you engaged in any kind of honest debate. You keep making up random senseless lies about what I've said that are so bad that no one is even confused.

Where did I ever claim +17 BAB? Where did I ever claim 6th level spells, or any spells at all for the rogue? Point to a single goddam instance anywhere.

I mean fuck, you just started whining that feats are not allowed to the rogue because it's unfair. Do you know how stupid that is? Feats are guaranteed, period. All Rogues ever are going to have at least 7 feats over 18 levels. Fuck, without the feats, the Factotum can't even FoI, which is the only thing that even allows it to pretend to be useful.

[For Valor]

Don't be an ass, Nine. Abusing stupid RAW rules is stupid.

.... of course, 5 pages after the OP, there's still at least two voices calling for SGTs.

I'd personally like to see a completely twinked Factotum v. a completely twinked rogue.

[NineInchNall]

Hey, now. It wasn't my idea to treat it that way. As RobbyPants demonstrates, though, it could be quite amusing.

Using the non-retarded interpretation of the IP mechanic, the class is pretty playable if you whore yourself out for FOI. It's not particularly interesting, but it certainly isn't weak. 'Course, the way I've seen people do the FOI whoring is with only 8 levels of the class, then jumping into shit that gives you bonus feats so you can get more FOIs. Using just Facto 20, though gives you what, 10 base IP and 28 from 7 FOIs? Having 13 additional standard actions at the beginning of every fight doesn't hurt at all.

[For Valor]

Isn't there something you can do with the Ardent and Synchronicity? I remember some similar cheese with the Time Mantle.

[Danchild]

The Rogue is a lot more consistent and reliable with its abilities.

At 10th level a factotum can cast solid fog and black tentacles in the same round. They can follow up by retreating into a rope trick.

The 5 minute workday may be grating, but not as grating as accounting for the consumable WBL the Flask Ninja requires to function. The 5 minute workday is a reliable method of gaining your best abilities for every combat. That is consistency. Rope trick becomes available at what? Level 5? Cunning Surge at level 8? Even without SLA abuse, Font of Inspiration is available to provide extra actions in every encounter.

[Leress]

At 10th level a factotum can cast solid fog and black tentacles in the same round. They can follow up by retreating into a rope trick.

The only problem with that is what constitutes as an encounter. Because after doing that the two spells in surge you can't do jack nor shit. Unless your feats on FOI.

The Rogue is more consistent since throughout its career it is reliable in its abilities. The early levels of Facto are just plain terrible.

Dan you still haven't answered this question

The factotum is a shitty spellcaster with a floating feat. Item creation. That brings a lot more to the party than rogue.

Where are you getting this from?

[Awkward Map]

At 10th level a factotum can cast solid fog and black tentacles in the same round. They can follow up by retreating into a rope trick.

Bullshit. Any DM would reach across the table and slap the fuck out of the person doing that. Please tell me you're not suggesting that the factotum player do that every combat.

If the DM is aware that the rogue is a flask spammer, the player could keep him aware on a per session basis of how many flasks they pitched. That doesn't seem difficult to me.

[Ice9]

Where are you getting this from?

He's thinking of the Chameleon, a prestige class with a similar theme to the Factotum.

Bullshit. Any DM would reach across the table and slap the fuck out of the person doing that. Please tell me you're not suggesting that the factotum player do that every combat.

Doing what? Casting two spells in the same round? That's hardly out of line for 10th level. Hiding in a Rope Trick during combat? That's actually less annoying than the normal use of Rope Trick. Resting after every fight? Annoying, but it depends on the rest of the party - they might be wanting to do so as well.

I wouldn't count on resting after every fight, but that hardly matters anyway. If the Factotum is full-out abusing FoI, then they get a big pile of free actions every encounter, no rest required. That's pretty hard to compete with.

So I think I have to revise my thinking on this:
FoI-stacking Factotum > Rogue > Non-FoI Factotum.

[Kaelik]

The Rogue is a lot more consistent and reliable with its abilities.

At 10th level a factotum can cast solid fog and black tentacles in the same round. They can follow up by retreating into a rope trick.

The 5 minute workday may be grating, but not as grating as accounting for the consumable WBL the Flask Ninja requires to function. The 5 minute workday is a reliable method of gaining your best abilities for every combat. That is consistency. Rope trick becomes available at what? Level 5? Cunning Surge at level 8? Even without SLA abuse, Font of Inspiration is available to provide extra actions in every encounter.

0) No, pretty sure the five minute work day is more grating than just saying "Here is 4000gp, now I have flasks for the next 10 levels."

1) Notice how you skipped over the whole, oh wait, Danchild was totally wrong in all of his baseless accusations stage of the argument and skipped straight to being wrong again.

I want to sincerely congratulate you on being a big enough dick to not apologize after being proven to be so incredibly extra double wrong.

2) No he can't, because EBT and Solid Fog are both level 4 spells, so he can only cast one level 4 spell a day at level 10, the next one has to be level 3.

3) It's great that you bring this up, because it's the dumbest thing ever, and JaronK tried the same bullshit, minus the Rope Trick, and it was fun to demolish him, it will be even more fun to Demolish you.

Spoilered for hilarious pwnage

First a stat:
EBT Grapple mod at level 10: +18

Now, for some CR 10 enemies:

Four Dragons: Adult White, Young Adult Brass, Juvenile Silver and Red:
Grapples +28/+24/+24/+29 respectively. You never even grapple them as they five foot step out of your cloud over time.

And the White has Gust of Wind SLA, and the other three all have 2nd level spells, so they probably have easier ways out anyways.

Three Hydras: Nine Headed Cryo and Pyro, Eleven Headed regular. Grapple mods of +22/+22/+25. They also just 5ft step their way out of the cloud.

Gargantuan Monstrous Scorpion: Already bigger than your Solid Fog anyway, and he's got a grapple of +37.

Colossal Animated Object: Do I even need to explain it to you? +49, he can't even ever get caught in the could because he's bigger than it.

Clay Golem: Well look at this loser, he only beats your grapple check by +1. So let's say it's mindless, and it stands in the cloud getting beat on by tentacles, and it doesn't even try to escape the tentacles after they grab on, because someone forgot to give it self preservation orders.

Clearly I can't make this Golem any easier. It stands stock still and your EBT wins half of the grapple checks and therefore does 5d6+20 damage over the course of it's duration.

And then... It wears off, and you have a Golem standing there which took some damage, okay, but now it's standing right in front of your rope trick waiting, and you have to deal with it again tomorrow. Are you really going to take multiple days of fighting a single mindless construct? Fuck, just cast Obscuring Mist and do a run by, it isn't even allowed to make listen checks because it's mindless. I mean damn, you'll be doing exactly what the rogue does, but wasting a first level spell to do it, but at least you'll beat it in under a day.

Fire Giant: Ah damn, back to +25 grapple mod and not mindless, you don't even do anything to it.

Beblith: Well, a) Grapple check of +29, b) Plane Shift at will if it really cared.

Salamander: +25 mod, 1 day Dispel Magic for 50% chance to remove each spell.

Formian Mynarch: Ignoring the minions, because they might be Fire Giants or they might be Ogres: At will Greater Teleport. And not even the demon version with the 50 pds cap, they can just take all their minions with them.

Oh yeah, and +20 mod, and they can easily make a DC 27 concentration check with their +18 mod, so even if you do roll lucky, you still end up doing like 2d6+8 damage at best.

But it's okay, because all will be forgiven in the next three boughts, because I am about to present the four monsters with grapple modifiers lower than your EBT:

1) Couatl: +17 mod: Also, Freedom of Movement.
2) Guardian Naga: +17 mod: casts as 9th level Sorcerer. Dispel Magic and Divine Power as spells known. Divine Power gives +6 to grapple, and Dispel Magic has a 40% chance of dispelling. +19 Concentration modifier allows for very good chance of getting spells off.
3) Rakshasa: +7 mod: No chance at all to escape. Oh, and DR 15, so you can't even do damage.

So in conclusion, you managed to, by breaking the rules and casting spells you can't even cast, not beat even a single CR 10 challenge in the SRD. Not even one. Literally every single one of them was perfectly fine afterwords, and suffered no damage a couple cure lights or acid breaths couldn't fix.

You successfully ran away from every single CR 10 monster. (Well, not the Mynarch.) But what I don't understand is why you wasted a second spell and IP on EBT when it didn't even do anything. Like at all.

[Kaelik]

FoI-stacking Factotum > Rogue > Non-FoI Factotum.

Frankly not really. It can't do much of anything with those actions.

Basically it gets to walk up and make a bunch of attack rolls for damage, but even still, I'm not sure it will be doing more damage than a Rogue full attack.

I mean, if the Rogue wins Init, he gets to full attack for "is dead" in damage, if he is even remotely optimized to the level of FoI stacking.

Factotum does some damage or something, not sure how much, and what if they are a Rakshasa and have DR 15? Sure they probably win Init more often, and if they don't win Init, they can do it anyway, whereas the Rogue has to have some way of making them flat footed (Blink/Grease/Invis/Skill tricks, or I guess flanking if you really want to be a Shadow Pounce Rogue) but I'm not impressed.

[Juton]

I looked up the stock same game test for level 10 on dandwiki.com. I know more about Rogues so I can be more definite with them then with Factotums.

A hallway filled with magical runes.
Both should be able to handle this with no problem

A Fire Giant.
A flask Rogue could probably drop it in two rounds, although he may take HP damage. A Factotum should target his low reflex save, from there I don't know but a Fire Giant isn't that hard to deal with.

A Young Blue Dragon.
If you play the Dragon smart then it will probably force the Rogue to withdraw. By smart I mean using flight to stay away from the Rogue and spam its line attack, even if the Rogue uses a scroll the Dragon has 90 feet of movement on it. At least the Rogue can threaten it with damage if it gets to close, I don't think the Factotum has any real offensive options but like I said I don't know Factotums.

A Bebilith.
Similar to the fire giant.

A Vrock.
The Vrock's Mirror Image really puts a cramp in the Rogue's sneak attack, the Rogue is going to have to use an item of True Seeing, it's fire and acid resistances are annoying but nothing more. It's telepathy prevents the PCs from getting the drop on it. Once those factors are dealt with SA or Iajutsu Focus should be able to drop it, although both should expect to take HP damage although the rogue is going to need a way to force the Vrock to be surprised/flat footed.

A tag team of Mind Flayers.
Now shit gets interesting. Telepathy impairs sneak attack and Mind Flayers are really good at targeting that will save, if either PC is stunned then it's game over for them. Factotums have an advantage of being able to add int to their will saves but that might not save them.

An Evil Necromancer.
If the Necromancer is as optimized as the Factotum then they both lose.

6 Trolls.
The Rogue should love this fight, but he has to be careful because he has to burn through a lot of HP. The Factotum should probably Fly and turn Invisible and use some fire/acid weapon to whittle them down.

A horde of Shadows.
I don't know how many a horde is, but neither of these characters is particularly well equipped to fight them, they should both use their abilities to withdraw, IMHO.

So after 9 encounter the Rogue would probably have 4 definitive wins (Runes, Giant, Bebilith, Trolls), 1 close victory (Vrock), 2 fights he should try and draw (Dragon, Shadows) and 2 he'd probably lose (Mindflayers, Necromancer). He wins a little more than he loses so he earns a place at the eponymous Rogue balance level.

The Factotum should be able to really handle that hallway full of ruins, the fire giant and bebilith and struggle with the Vrock and the Trolls. He has a chance against the Mind flayers if the build is good but should probably try to run from dragon and shadows and will probably get owned by the Necromancer. That's 5 wins of varying quality, Rogue balance level.

EDIT: Spelling