A way for 5E to extort money from 3rd-party publishers.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So there are many tabletop games out there, yours truly included, who will only include material from other games if there is a 'WotC' logo at the bottom of the back cover. Granted this doesn't always hold true since there are people out there who correctly realize that Swords and Sorcery Studios has yet to publish anything as shitty as the 3.0E Psionic Player's Handbook or Magic of Faerun. And there are people out there who will go 'Dragonlance? But this is a homebrew fantasy heartbreaker campaign, GTFO with that non-Complete shit'. But for the most part having that logo on your book substantially increases the chance that people will use it for your game.

So here's the deal. When WotC or whoever owns the IP does their next edition and puts out their version of the OGL, they ALSO have a 'special deal' for people willing to pony up the money. For a small fee, you can get your book reviewed by a member of the 5E staff. If they approve of the contents in your book (or don't deem it too shitty), they will charge you a cut of the profits or a flat fee to be able to put your logo on one of your sourcebooks. If it's really good or at least sufficiently non-crappy then they'll even include your option into the character builder software and make it 'official' RPGA-approved content.

This of course requires discipline on 5E's part not to dilute the value of that logo by approving shit books for a quick bribe. While Relics and Rituals 1 and 2 are about on the level of Complete Divine IMO, people notice fucked-up shit from third-party developers more readily than first-party ones.

[Zinegata]

Why?

Seriously. What you're explaining is just a modified 4.0 OGL model. With the big difference being everything a 3rd party publisher produces has to be reviewed and approved by someone like fucking Mike Mearls.

And pretty much all of the 3rd party producers think the 4.0 OGL was a restrictive piece of shit. Making it even more restrictive just makes it more retarded.

[hogarth]

Congratulations! You just invented the concept of licensed products.

[souran]

Actually, I was of the understanding that they sort of did this with 3.X.

You could pay WOTC and be allowed to put Wizards Of the Coast Officailly Licenced product on the crap you were pushing out the door.

Only.... Nobody bothered. You could put d20 on your book for free so nobody payed WOTC anything. They pretty much figured that if they wrote D20 and "3rd edition rules suppliment" on a book it didn't actually have to SAY D&D anywhere.

Hell, Moongoose publishing used this, combined with titles that sounded like old TSR titles and a book "style" that was remincient of 2e books to sell people loads of books filled with nothing but broken and trap options.

[Crissa]

That's why you see builds with stuff from Rokugon and not stuff from The Slayer's Guides.

-Crissa

[K]

They tried this with 4e and no one bought into it. But 4e sucks, so that may have something to do with it.

3e had a lesser version with the OGL, but I don't think they ever got to the "charging people money" phase.

[hogarth]

Actually, I was of the understanding that they sort of did this with 3.X.

You could pay WOTC and be allowed to put Wizards Of the Coast Officailly Licenced product on the crap you were pushing out the door.

Only.... Nobody bothered.

Well, I can think of one notable exception: Dungeon and Dragon magazines. Of course, they got the license yanked when WotC decided they could do better themselves.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Only.... Nobody bothered. You could put d20 on your book for free so nobody payed WOTC anything. They pretty much figured that if they wrote D20 and "3rd edition rules suppliment" on a book it didn't actually have to SAY D&D anywhere.

Hell, Moongoose publishing used this, combined with titles that sounded like old TSR titles and a book "style" that was remincient of 2e books to sell people loads of books filled with nothing but broken and trap options.

Why not? Was it just too expensive? Were the products so good that some people didn't care anyway--I am willing to believe this for a couple of products like Dawnforge and Relics and Rituals since those are better than a lot of 3E sourcebooks I've ready.

I brought this up because it seems that the wave of the future will be the D&D Character Builder. Nearly everyone I've played 4E with who had a copy loved it. It's even convinced a couple of people to actually crack open a book, because that's all they had. I have a really hard time believing that 5E won't do something like this because it's a genuine 'killer app' for the edition.

I'm wondering if D&D made a huge thing about playtesting third-party products and giving them their official seal of approval and a spot in 5E or whatever's character builder if people would take the bait this time. The third-party publisher would have to go through the rigamarole of actually putting out a book to hide the naked cynicism behind this idea (rather than just expansion options popping up in the CB directly) of course.

[hogarth]

I'm wondering if D&D made a huge thing about playtesting third-party products and giving them their official seal of approval and a spot in 5E or whatever's character builder if people would take the bait this time. The third-party publisher would have to go through the rigamarole of actually putting out a book to hide the naked cynicism behind this idea (rather than just expansion options popping up in the CB directly) of course.

If this hypothetical third party product is really good (and profitable), why wouldn't WotC publish a version themselves?

I.e. Suppose John Doe writes a great adventure for Piano Publishing. Then either (a) WotC can give their approval to make it an official product and any profit gets split between John, Piano, and WotC, or (b) WotC hires John to write an adventure that's just as good, and the profit gets split between John and WotC.

Generally, you license your intellectual property to someone who isn't your direct competitor. So Disney licenses their characters to a company that makes bedding or wallpaper because they aren't a bedding or wallpaper company. They don't license their characters to Dreamworks; that would be a dumb idea for Disney and a dumb idea for Dreamworks -- why wouldn't they make their own movies and keep all of the profits for themselves? (That line of reasoning is how a company like Marvel Studios is born, for example.)

The exception, I suppose, is if you licensed D&D to another company to make a niche product, like "D&D African Campaign Setting", for instance; if WotC isn't planning an African campaign setting in the near future, then it's not really competition. But if it's a niche, then it doesn't really matter if you put stuff in the main character generator or not. Maybe you could have add-on packs for those people who care to purchase one, sort of like Hero Lab works.

[Saxony]

Lago made me think when she said developers would have to produce a paper book even if they are majorly selling via the character builder.

Question: When do you all think DnD will become completely digitized?

10 years? 20 years? 5e? 6e? 7e?

[Lago PARANOIA]

The exception, I suppose, is if you licensed D&D to another company to make a niche product, like "D&D African Campaign Setting", for instance; if WotC isn't planning an African campaign setting in the near future, then it's not really competition. But if it's a niche, then it doesn't really matter if you put stuff in the main character generator or not. Maybe you could have add-on packs for those people who care to purchase one, sort of like Hero Lab works.

Pretty much. D&D would have to be pretty dumb to give their approval to a 'Mongoose: Feats' book, but do you think that if they wanted to put their trademark on some edge-case crap like Dragons of Eberron or Men of Thunder: An NPC sourcebook to Rokugan there would be any money in that?

[hogarth]

Pretty much. D&D would have to be pretty dumb to give their approval to a 'Mongoose: Feats' book, but do you think that if they wanted to put their trademark on some edge-case crap like Dragons of Eberron or Men of Thunder: An NPC sourcebook to Rokugan there would be any money in that?

My two cents: If it's a very profitable idea, they would probably make it themselves, and if it's not very profitable, then no, there isn't much money in it.

I doubt they'd allow someone else to make a "canon" fluff book like Dragons of Eberron, at any rate.

[K]

I'm not sure that the margins on third party material is high enough for them to fork out fees. Just another issue to consider.

[hogarth]

I'm not sure that the margins on third party material is high enough for them to fork out fees. Just another issue to consider.

Indeed -- especially the margin on items with high enough production quality that WotC would like to put their name on.

[Zinegata]

Why not? Was it just too expensive? Were the products so good that some people didn't care anyway--I am willing to believe this for a couple of products like Dawnforge and Relics and Rituals since those are better than a lot of 3E sourcebooks I've ready.

I brought this up because it seems that the wave of the future will be the D&D Character Builder. Nearly everyone I've played 4E with who had a copy loved it. It's even convinced a couple of people to actually crack open a book, because that's all they had. I have a really hard time believing that 5E won't do something like this because it's a genuine 'killer app' for the edition.

I'm wondering if D&D made a huge thing about playtesting third-party products and giving them their official seal of approval and a spot in 5E or whatever's character builder if people would take the bait this time. The third-party publisher would have to go through the rigamarole of actually putting out a book to hide the naked cynicism behind this idea (rather than just expansion options popping up in the CB directly) of course.

Lago, again, are you really gonna trust WoTC led by Mike Mearls to test out a product and give it their "seal of approval"?

Not only are you creating a situation of conflict of interest, the people making judgements on what is "good" is suspect.

Bluntly, this was a silly idea.

[Crissa]

Disney would (or should) license their characters to Dreamworks for productions they didn't plan on creating - say, a TV series version of a movie or game or whatnot.

This happens often in game licensing because the gross of say Final Fantasy Tactics is smaller than the next Final Fantasy game.

-Crissa

[Username17]

The Paizo Dragon Magazine was a profitable thing for both Paizo and WotC. WotC canceled the contract because they thought they could do better in house, and they were wrong. The thing is that there are lots of jokers out there who want to make D&D shit, and you can get people to write that shit on spec, edit it on spec, and present you with a nearly finished product for you to review. Where the margin comes in is all the crap that you don't publish. Nameless hordes of fanboys will have their dreams crushed and all their work will go unpublished and unpaid.

Bringing it "in house" was a catastrophe precisely because WotC staff writers aren't better than a random assortment of fanboys from the top third or so of writing talent. And yeah, they aren't any worse than the people who used to be writing Dungeon and Dragon, but having them take time out of their day that could have been spent writing books or designing subsystems really hurts. And more importantly, it kills the "farm" system for finding new talent.

-Username17

[hogarth]

The Paizo Dragon Magazine was a profitable thing for both Paizo and WotC. WotC canceled the contract because they thought they could do better in house, and they were wrong.

The Dragon/Dungeon deal made sense because WotC didn't want to be in the magazine business. (And who can blame them? Paizo doesn't even want to be a magazine company now; magazines are in the toilet.)

But once WotC made the decision to distribute Dragon/Dungeon through their proprietary platform, it wouldn't make any sense to have Paizo do the work. What value would Paizo add in that situation?

The thing is that there are lots of jokers out there who want to make D&D shit, and you can get people to write that shit on spec, edit it on spec, and present you with a nearly finished product for you to review. Where the margin comes in is all the crap that you don't publish. Nameless hordes of fanboys will have their dreams crushed and all their work will go unpublished and unpaid.

Of course. But once you've recognized the one or two talented fanboys, the smart thing is to hire them on to work on your own projects instead of having them continue to make competing products of high quality.

And more importantly, it kills the "farm" system for finding new talent.

Does WotC solicit freelance articles for the online version of Dungeon/Dragon?

[Crissa]

The value of having Paizo continuing to produce the material would be the system they'd created to create the material.

By canceling the license, they also canceled any expertise gained and had to build it entirely over again.

It was a really stupid move.

-Crissa