Basic rules for starting and advertising 5th Edition D&D

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Lago PARANOIA
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Basic rules for starting and advertising 5th Edition D&D

Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Note: This is originally from the 'who is left to rebuild the D&D franchise?' thread but it kind of got tangled up over the issue of hit points. So because I have an itching desire to just build the next edition and talk about it, I split this post off into its own thread. Also because I'm an attention whore. :kindacool:


So. You've gotten all of your books together and you're ready to pump out a new edition of D&D. Now you're just wondering how you are going to advertise it. Well, hang on to your shorts, because Daddy Lago has FINALLY scoured through all of the thread and has compressed everything into an advertising primer. So no wading through 30 pages of board-post to see what I have on my mind.

You start your marketing 6 months in advance of the release date. If you start too soon, you won't build up enough hype and word of mouth. Also, depending on how badly 4th Edition did going out the door, releasing things too soon will produce skepticism. I personally recommend waiting at least a year between the 'fall' of 4th Edition and when you start releasing word of 5th Edition. Enough time for the memory of failure to die down and for fanboy egos to get assauged. This means that there will be an 18 month gap between editions. Now I know this is a really long time and honestly it is. The problem is that 4E has cried wolf so many times with their revisions that even if a 5E came out it would still be suffering from the hype backlash of its precedessor. So sit on the IP for awhile, even if you've done the work way in advance. Of course, since corporations are greedy motherfuckers who kill golden geese left and right, you might not have enough time between the 'death' of 4E and the release of 5E to let time wash out the awful taste. You will still seriously need about a year of work, though. 5 intense months creating a product and a few books to go along with it and another two months doing rigorous playtesting.


Initial Release Schedule and Translation
But anyway. Short-sighted greediness or no, you're WotC and have created the final drafts of your books, complete with playtesting. Good lord, don't forget the playtesting. They don't dare go to the presses without the following available to be mass-produced:
  • All three core rulebooks.
  • $20 boxed set.
  • Campaign setting books for Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Record of Lodoss War/Slayers or whatever hot heroic fantasy anime is out there (get the rights to the IP), Planescape, Ravenloft, and Dark Sun pre-written. Honestly, hold off on making a Final Fantasy campaign setting, otherwise you will get jeers from people complaining about you being too pandering and too video-gamey. You do want to make a Final Fantasy Campaign Setting, but you're going to release that after your edition establishes itself. Basically, your 'New Challenger' setting is something to reel in the weeaboos without giving the grognards ammunition to go 'they want to kill classic D&D with this video game shit!' So pick a license that's been around for at least a decade and has a big fanbase before publishing it. Again, I recommend RoLW, Slayers, Berserk, or even Magic Knight Rayearth.
  • Monster Manual II. Don't call it Monster Manual II, though. Give it some less lazy title like 'Monster Manual: Challenge of the Evil Gods'.
  • Arms and Equipment Guide. This actually needs to be released fairly early in, before people settle into their habits and will only notice new books because of power creep. To limit the amount of power creep and give it basket weaver cred you'll want to do 'obscure' weapons and also have sections on mounts and fortress building and whatnot.
  • D&D Iconic Villain Manual/Enemies and Allies guide. We talked about this earlier threads and I'll be happy to expand if you have questions.
  • 9 months of promotional comics, Exalted-style, for the new D&D edition. You will need to release a new comic at a rate of no more than two weeks between issues. So at least 18. Recommended length? You see those Ultimate Spiderman or Ultimates softcover books? The total volume of content you should have needs to fill up two of those books.
  • A couple of setting-agnostic campaign expansion books. Books that can be copy-pasted into any campaign, like Stormwrack and Frostburn.
Also, get your foreign-language translations started as soon as you're done with playtesting. Now. You should release the D&D English core book at the same time you release it into other languages. I recommend making Spanish, Brazilian Portugeuse, German, Russian, Japanese, and Chinese translations. You don't need to do the other sourcebooks just yet, focus on core; start translations on THOSE books depending on how much demand you have for your product. If the core books catch fire in a language, then you can start releasing sourcebooks for those.

Fanning the Advertising Flames
The D&D promotional comic gets released six months ahead of the release date (you DO have a promotional comic, right?). Release the new issues on your website or through Drive-Thru-RPG.com. The comic will continue three months after the release of the core rulebooks, when the initial edition hype is at its highest. If the comic is still a thing by then, release more issues. If it's not a thing, then don't worry about it. You can just stop it.

Getting the fanboys on board. WotC should hit all of the hot 'nerd' websites that have an easily-identifiable personality to go along with it and invite them to play in sessions. You can cater to their egos more by allowing them to stick their own dicks into your product (so Tycho's witchalok or whatever actually becomes an iconic villain in your manual; thank god for .pdfs). I think that it's at least possible to get Penny Arcade, Giant in the Playground, Robot Chicken, and Girl Genius as long as you don't push too hard. I would put Brian Clevinger on that short list, as he's a 3.5E D&D fan, but his traffic has dropped off immensely since finishing that 8-Bit Theatre comic. Oh, well. The point is that they get exclusive previews of material that filters down to the rest of the internets to build hype and interest.

WotC then releases their videogames to circulate around the Internet. You hit the big bad gaming sites with these. At this point you're not trying to recreate D&D in a videogame like with Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights. Your goal is advertisement, namely getting people hyped up for Dungeons and Dragons. You showcase the new classes and races and make as many references to D&D-specific cliches as possible.
  • Facebook app (or whatever is the popular social networking app) like they had for 4E, only not ass and also doing more to highlight specific edition features.
  • Lightweight flash RPG for the 'hardcore' set in the vein of Monster's Lair: Book of Dread. That is, an infinitely grindy cRPG that has D&D tropes slathered all over it.
  • Lightweight 'puzzle' application-game to appeal to people who aren't into ultra-grindy cRPGs. This is pretty much a pure marketing gimmick. I suggest getting something like Jewel Quest or Bejeweled and slathering creamy D&D dicksauce all over it. So it'll look something like Puzzle Quest. The advantage of this is that puzzle games are very profitable for what they cost.
    For the latter two, again, you will need to do translations for these. However, since these kinds of video games have much less text to them than books, it shouldn't take as long or be as expensive. Release them to non-English gaming sites and let them stew for awhile.

Ongoing management of your property.
Now the D&D Insider thing. This is one of the few areas in which I have to give 4th Edition props for handling correctly. Frankly, I wouldn't change much of what 4E did with that thing, with a couple of caveats.
  • Having a subscription to D&D Insider allows you to edit the D&D wiki. Without it, all you can do is read it. It might seem counter-intuitive at first glance to do this, but remember that you want your biggest fans and hardcore fanboys to mostly be working on that. And those people are going to have a DDI subscription anyway.
  • Dungeon Magazine needs a hardcopy as WELL as an online subcription.
  • You need to have the character visualizer out. I honestly don't agree with Frank and Koumei and them about the 2D paper dolls; people are willing to suspend their disbelief about how crappy the 3D models are as long as you get to rotate your character around and look at your barbarian's armored ass, because that's precisely what they did with City of Heroes. And that game looked like ass even for its time. The models don't need to be Oblivion-level quality. They just need to be Soul Calibur 2 quality. If that's too expensive, then you should be able to do Final Fantasy 8 quality.
  • Most vitally, you will need to have some kind of tabletop toolkit created that allows people to directly import their models from the character visualizer and their character sheets onto the game. The application WILL need to be connected to the Internet and WILL need to be able to be played on a smartphone or an iPad or whatever the fuck. This is ground zero for the long-term marketability of your franchise, if you can't get this done then even if 5E is a success it will not be able to grow the pie higher.
D&D Insider will keep 3rd Edition and 4th Edition materials available so that the fanboys don't get upset. But they'll be swept under the rug to some far corner of the website.

Secondly, set up an official Dungeons and Dragons wiki. Honestly, I don't know why the hell 4E didn't do so. Wikia makes wikis easily and the existence of like three separate D&D wikis shows that people do actually want them in. The wiki will mostly be able to be freely edited by the public at large. You don't even need to do that much quality control, because the nature of wikis have people fighting over accuracy to ensure nerd cred. Which takes some of the pressure off of you. The only thing that the sysops should be doing pretty much is ensuring that people don't post major spoilers of your class. Posting a description and some generic crunch (i.e. Ranger, Striker Role, favors STR/WIS/DEX, has the Prime Shot/Hunter's Quarry/Fighting Style talent trees, etc.) is fine, but if it gets to the point where it's providing major spoilers you've gone too far. But again, Wiki Magic will pretty much take care of this for you. Once you got a D&D wiki up and running, you will use that as the homepage of your Sage FAQ. Seriously, that should be the major feature of the wiki. Furthermore, the person who has the title 'Sage' will be the lead developer of your product for added gravitas. Don't slather his name all over the product, but people should seriously be able to point to a name when some skeptic over a rules interpretation asks 'who said this thing?'

Thirdly, worry about customer service. 4E overlooked this to their detriment, but having a customer service that is respected adds credibility to the product and thus the writers. It's really not that hard. So here are your basic rules of customer service.
0) People cannot ask questions without detailing the book and the relevant pages (if necessary) in order to evaluate the question.
1) Go to the index and see if the question has already been answered. If it has been answered then repeat the same canned answer unless it blatantly doesn't make sense or is wrong.
2) If you get asked anything other than a softball question (how do I calculate the hit points of a 10th level wizard), index that shit immediately along with your answer. If it's a repeat question, mark up the number of times that question was asked. If it's a good, but out-of-left-field question like, I dunno, calculating the swim speed of a giant, you should mark this with a special symbol or something.
3) The Sage will go through the customer service index every alloted amount of time and pick out the most-asked questions or questions marked 'strangely good question' and answer those questions. He will immediately post those answers onto the FAQ and also onto the D&D wiki.
4) The Sage has the final word. He's the only one allowed to contradict customer service, a privilege that he should only exercise rarely. If the Sage does contradict customer service then the Sage should make note of this in order to maintain credibility.


The Piece De Resistance: Your Boxed Set
Now. The boxed set itself. I mentioned in another thread that the game should take a lot of its cues from Dragonstrike. I maintain that assertion. The boxed set should have:
  • Miniature versions of the monster manual, dungeon master's guide, and the player's handbook that goes to level 5 or so.
  • In the player's handbook, at the minimum you will give people the choice of choosing their weapon, some generic equipment (like rope), their race, their class, their skills, and also their background. Don't make it too involved; the backgrounds should be things like 'war profiteer' or 'caring healer'. That way people will have a sense of ownership of their character beyond 'I'm playing a board game piece'.
  • One booklet that has six fully-contained adventures that the DM doesn't have to prep. One of them should be long enough to be a campaign, like Keep on the Shadowfell. The other five, one for each board, should be able to be finished in an evening--stuff like 'Assault on the Necromancer's Castle' or 'Orcs and Mercenaries have invaded the town!'. The evening-length adventures can seriously be nothing but straight-up combat with a few opportunities for roleplay. The campaign stuff should definitely be more involved. It should have a skill challenge, opportunities for picking up treasure, and enough encounters so that people level up at least once in the middle of it. It should also use several of the boards.
  • Dice. A d4, four d6s, a d8, a d10, a d12 (sigh), and two d20s. All of them color-coded.
  • A set of premade player's cards for each of the iconics for people who don't want to build a character. They can still build a character, but if someone is just popping on you can hand them the card.
  • 1 cloth map of the 'world' which on the back has some cool D&D picture. You ever get the Neverwinter Nights special edition box? Well, that.
  • Three cardboard boards, front and back. Having played in some 3E and 4E games with newbie DMs both online and offline, I can tell you that one of the biggest stumbling blocks and 'oh god why do I have to do this' are coming up with maps. So DragonStrike style, you should have: A town board, a forest board, a dungeon board, a temple board, a cavern board, and a wrecked city board.
  • Color-coded plastic figurines. You provide 8 plastic figurines, each for the heroic iconics. All of the heroic iconics are white. Then you have approx. 30 'bad guy' figurines, about 2/3rds the size of what DragonStrike used. Here's my suggested spread:
    2 wizards, one black and one red.
    2 giants, both green.
    1 dragon, dark red.
    1 of each elemental (so four), which are red, brown, yellow, and blue respectively.
    5 lightly-armored generic humanoid figures that have their features obscured, all of them light-blue.
    3 heavily-armored generic humanoid figures that have their features obscured, all of them light-green.
    3 skeletons, all of them grey.
    3 zombies, both dark green.
    3 wolves, all black.
    1 mini-beholder, which will be yellow.
    3 goblins, green.
    3 orcs, grey-green.
  • Multi-media CD on it. It will have all of the issues of the D&D comic up to that point on it. It will also have some video playthroughs of some of the campaigns you did while showing your product to the above nerds I mentioned. Finally, it comes with a subscription to D&D Insider and a couple of power cards unique to people who picked up this adventure.
I have to admit straight up though that I don't know how much plastic figurines cost. If they're too expensive for a 20-dollar boxed set and shrinking them down won't help, then you should be able to switch to cardboard tokens. The cardboard tokens will be in color, of course. I don't know about mixing and matching cardboard tokens of monsters and plastic figurines. I personally think that you should stick to one or the other.

The boxed set should seriously both be able to have a set of 'pick up and play' adventures with no real ramifications to it. These pick-up-and-play adventures should be stacked in favor of the player, that way people don't get all crybaby that they had to face a 'real' challenge. They shouldn't be too stacked, though, because you don't want to give the impression that they're some kind of uber-badasses. In order to wean your players after getting them in the mood, the main event of your boxed set should advertise itself as being difficult and badass and questioning your president-rescuing abilities.


Your Bearing and Conduct While Advertising
So when 5th Edition comes out, there are going to be lots of hurt feelings and tears over how the previous editions went. You will have a lot of 3tards and 4rries just waiting to pounce on every bit of bad/questionable news in order to spread their bile. So, here's a general primer:

1) Advertise the glittering generalities first, advertise the hard numbers when the edition is about to be released. The Skill Challenge stuff was able to briefly fool us into thinking that it would be good because they didn't release their numbers until the very end. If they did the numbers first then even that would have failed.

When you advertise your new set of classes and races, don't release numbers other than the bare minimum. Create descriptions of what they do. Throw in a bunch of pithy quotes. Show off your promotional artwork. You do not want people to go 'oh, this new barbarian only does 1d6+4 damage, my old one did 2d6+9 at first level! 5E sucks!'. Even though that's not accurate, you still don't want this meme to catch on.

2) Avoid badmouthing fans of previous editions. Your advertisers should go out of their way to ingratiate themselves onto their audience, many of them being jilted fanboys. Whenever possible, you should throw a bone to ideas of the other editions: 'We really liked the idea behind Skill Challenges but we also wanted to make them more action-oriented like you see in the movies. This is why we made this system' or 'We really thought that the idea behind kits in 2E were cool; it makes your fighter different from all of the other fighters immediately. So in addition of combining them with prestige classes and epic destinies, they're now in the game'.

3) If you have to slay a sacred cow, you need to give a good reason for why you're doing so. If you need to announce a major departure from how things were done previously, you need to sugarcoat and go into depth as to why you did that. For example, when you state why you need to get rid of magical item plusses, state that plain ol' math bonuses made players cynical towards the coolness of magical items. People love swords that transform into giant eagles and staves which shoot bolts of lightning. In return for getting rid of plussed items, we were able to introduce a lot more items and keep them more relevant because they're not competing against a math bonus.

4) Use your playtesting sessions to ease over the teething pains of new mechanics and slain cows. Filmed playtesting sessions are good for this because they immediately allow you to A) change the subject and B) show people that the world doesn't end if they don't get exactly what they want and C) show them what new awesome thing you had in the wings for them. Playtesting sessions are probably the best place to ease people into the pain of going to Winds of Fate and getting rid of plussed magical items.

5) If people are going to ask whether something is going to be in the game, be honest but still sugarcoat. If someone asks you point-blank if rolled hit points are going to be in, just say no. There's no use being evasive, because people will find out. But if people ask 'is Eberron going to come back in vogue' then you can tell them that even though in the immediate product line you don't have plans if the edition does well enough then there will be some Eberron material maybe.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Orca
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Post by Orca »

That's an awful lot of stuff you want prewritten and presumably playtested. Time is money and you're looking at delaying at least a year over when you could go live with say, a core 3 books and a campaign setting. And yeah, I did mean a year over the 18 moth gap you're already assuming.

Also, having some campaign settings not prewritten gives you room to change the emphasis if you've misjudged the market.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Orca wrote:Time is money and you're looking at delaying at least a year over when you could go live with say, a core 3 books and a campaign setting.
You do not want to get backlogged on playtesting; that's why I recommended having a good library of books written out and playtested ahead of time.

Moreover, I also recommended a waiting period between the 'end' of 4E and when 5E starts. Yes, during that year your product will not be making much money but the point of that timeframe is to let time heal fanboy wounds and egos. Remember, you will have a not-insubstantial portion of your fanbase devoted to 4th Edition and if you roll out a new edition too suddenly they will feel betrayed and angry regardless of how good your new edition is.
Orca wrote: Also, having some campaign settings not prewritten gives you room to change the emphasis if you've misjudged the market.
On the other hand, if you wait too long (and I think that 4E waited too long) then people who are already playing lose interest in your campaign setting. They're not going to wait 8-10 months before they start playing in earnest, they're going to be playing their own thing and by the time those books roll out they'll have already settled into their own campaign setting. Which means reduced interest.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa »

I dunno if you need the settings playtested and ready to go; but you do need them in open beta by the time your books hit the shelves.

-Crissa
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Blasted
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Post by Blasted »

I think 'Papa Lago' sounds better, anyway,
Depending on the quality of the figures, they can be done rather cheap. If you're happy to include figures which are of the quality of toy soldiers and you're willing to produce tens of thousands of the boxed set, then I think it's doable. If you want to go further up market and use plastic which holds a reasonable amount of detail and doesn't feel like it's covered in crisco, it's going to be more expensive.
It really depends on whether you're willing to use the boxed set as a loss leader (or just a no profit option) or whether you want a decent profit.
What you could do is to have 2 boxed sets; the 'basic' which just has the crappy toys and doodads and the 'premium' which will include nice (pewter?) minis and metal dice and maybe even the 'real' books. This would be $100+, produced only a couple of thousand and they'll be picked up as 'collectors' items. You could probably do quite a profit on those.

I do have some reservations on the video game strategy. Lightweight puzzle games I think would do some damage to grognard population. I would actually release a low cost version of the character visualizer. It should have oblivion level graphics, but could get away with torchlight/WoW. Actual graphic quality doesn't cost a great deal. The tradeoff is when you need to balance environments, multiple monsters, etc. on screen at the same time and have it run on Billy Bob's laptop. This wont be an issue for the visualizer, you're only drawing the single character.
The facebook app could be released early, but it must not be a farmvile style of lightweight puzzler. It must be of reasonable quality.
The roguelike could be released on launch, but you'd have to be very careful not to pollute the brand. It would be very risky, I think.
The puzzle game should be held off for months. Maybe even 6 months. It will dillute the brand and while it will bring in some outside interest, you really want to target current/previous D&D fans with the initial release.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Blasted, I think you're being overly cautious with the worry about video games.

Bad licenses of the main brand don't hurt the mainline product as much as the reverse does. I mean, if someone released a really, really bad Toy Story 3 video game before the film hit the theaters it wouldn't hurt sales of the movie too much; however, if someone really a really really good Toy Story 3 VG it would probably help sales of the movie.

Now mind, if the Toy Story 3 movie was bad it would hurt sales of the video game regardless of whether the game was good or if it was bad. But that's not the real worry. Unless the D&D puzzle game was awesomely bad, like so bad that seanbaby made an article about it, it probably wouldn't have much of an affect on sales in the negative direction.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Blasted
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Post by Blasted »

Toy Story is a very strong franchise, as opposed to D&D, which looks to be ailing.
If a terrible Shrek game was released prior to another Shrek movie, I think it would do a great deal more damage, because it would confirm the preconception that Shrek is no longer a good franchise.

I think that disaffecting the current fanbase by releasing a game that runs contrary to what they expect from D&D could be disastrous to the initial launch.
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Post by Username17 »

I'm still pretty adamant about 2d paper dolls. 2d shit can look awesome on a tenth the artistic and programming work of even mediocre looking 3d crap. And remember: the primary output of the character visualizer is going to be a picture printed on the character sheet, which means it is going to be 2-dimensional anyway.

Simplistic, nigh-monochromatic brightly colored outfits is fine for characters like Brushfire and Rampant, but Lady Amalfia and Sir Kortak need a subtler touch. The output of your character visualizer should make your character look like a fucking Frazetta painting, and it needs to print that shit onto your character sheet. So when you hold up your character sheet to people who don't play the game it looks awesome and not merely indicative.

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Blasted
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Post by Blasted »

I'd argue that the amount of programming work is minimal. I've seen guys whip out a model displayer in less than a day. If you used a pre-existing framework (such as ogre), then it's doable in a few hours.
The actual work is in the art. I don't think that you need all that much. Just a couple of models for each race/sex/class combination. A bit of smarts would let you pick color/texture/whatever per article of clothing/armor/equipment.

But most of the work is going to be done by the fans. A simple interface to a web based sharing thingy (that's a technical term, that is.) with sorting by category, ratings, etc. and people will fall over themselves to do the work so you don't need to.

Seriously, if you gave a couple of artists some lead time and got a competent programmer on it, you could knock it over in a week. Another week and I think you could get some pre-determined animations in.

2D? Great for Diablo/Diablo 2/Baldur's Gate, but you're aiming to cater for people with higher expectations. Maxis' games were leaders in this. Sims 2&3 and Spore had great character modellers. You want to wow people. With 2D, every second person ends up with the same figure in the same stance and the same perspective with a different sword. With 3D, at least they might pick a difference stance and perspective, even if they're desperate for that Drizzt lookalike.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

FrankTrollman wrote:The output of your character visualizer should make your character look like a fucking Frazetta painting, and it needs to print that shit onto your character sheet.
Give me some examples of good 2D paper doll programs/video games. Because like, all that's coming to mind for me is Daggerfall. And Daggerfall just doesn't cut the mustard anymore. I could still have fun dressing up my characters in Dragon's Quest IX or Soul Calibur, but having one stance and one body shape would get really old, really fast.
Blasted wrote:A simple interface to a web based sharing thingy (that's a technical term, that is.) with sorting by category, ratings, etc. and people will fall over themselves to do the work so you don't need to.
This is exactly what happened with Dragon Age and Neverwinter Nights 2 and I'm willing to bet a bunch of other RPGs.

It seems that once you've got the basically modelling/posing programs down then you don't need to do that much more work with things like outfits or hairstyles or whatever because fans will be jumping at the opportunity to do so.
Blasted wrote:With 3D, at least they might pick a difference stance and perspective, even if they're desperate for that Drizzt lookalike.
That is actually a big deal as far as customization goes. If you can't look at your character from a 60' angle or from behind, then it's a waste of everybody's time nowadays.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Zinegata »

Lago, I'd hate to burst your bubble because you do have a nice collection of ideas, but... your "advertising plan" is a bit lacking in the fundamentals.

Particularly, you need to answer this question before anything else:

Who is your target market? In layman's terms - who are you trying to sell the product to.

This is actually one of the hardest (if not the hardest) things to figure out before you implement an ad campaign.

Now, the plan implies that you're targetting nerds and videogame players (and have a strong foreign language campaign as well). And you mentioned not antagonizing users of previous editions. But you need to be a bit more... specific.

Not all nerds play RPGs. Not all videogamers are RPG players. And deciding whether or not to cater to your "old base" can be a crucial decision.

Now, I know that you lack statistical data, so it's hard to say "I will target the 6 million existing D&D users".

Hence I suggest you use another tool, which in my work is called "Target Consumer Profile" (but the terminology varies, so the term itself isn't important). Basically, what you do is draw the image of one or more customer of your product - say what he likes, dislikes, etc. From there, you can determine if the advertisement makes sense in his context.

For example, a sample profile could be Joe Videogamer. He's 25 years old, has a regular job, and spends a lot of his time socializing with his friends by playing computer games via LAN or online. He's heard of D&D before, mainly through class videogames such as Baldur's Gate, but he's never actually played a tabletop D&D session before.

Once you have that profile, you can then say what sort of ads and messaging you will use to target Joe. From your list, targeting video game sites with ads would be good. But I don't think you have crafted a particular message (from your big list of ideas) that would make Joe drop his video games and take a look at what D&D is.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Thanks, Zinegata. I'll make the goals more clear.

Basically, you're trying to target several groups at once.

1) Kids/Teens. These are the people for whom the 20 dollar boxed set are primarily marketted to. To grab these people, this advertising campaign focuses around the box. I think as Frank correctly pointed out the entry bar to play something as recognizably D&D is just way too high. It costs less money to buy both Champions of Norrath than the core rulebooks and that's messed up. They are also the people for whom the online video-games are for. You want to create the association of 'this D&D videogame is good, so maybe this badass-looking game box with all of the figurines in it are good, too!'

Believe it or not, you don't really want to tone down the content in the mainline D&D game to hook them. While it's totally okay for the boxed set to be PG-rated, you actually want your main game to be R-rated. No one thinks PG-13 or PG is cool and as we've learned from the Console Wars the younger generation's perception of what is cool depends on the older generations'. This means that, while not going overboard with it, you want to have things like the occasional scene of graphic violence or bared breast.

Because kids are less likely to be plugged into the cheaper advertising avenues, the majority of what advertising dollar should be going towards the boxed set, especially as you stray further away from the 'hardcore nerd' websites like Girl Genius. The beauty of advertising for the boxed set is that the audience of returning/lapsed D&D fans will follow the money to your mainline product. The boxed set is intentionally set up so that you can play much of it like a board game, in the same spirit of Clue or DragonStrike. The graduation present in the boxed set is the campaign setting and hopefully when it's done you will have people hooked onto roleplay.

The D&D cartoon thread that we mentioned earlier is another advertising venue, but frankly I kind of lost interest in it once I realized that there's no way that whoever owned the IP would have enough money to make a decent animation series. Ah, well.


2) Non-D&D nerds. While there are a LOT of nerds out there that don't play D&D, I doubt that there are many nerds who can't give you at least three D&D cliches if asked on the spot. So you have the advantage of having some market penetration already, more than most products. However you have two big challenges to get them onboard:

The first is making the game EASY to play. Let's face it, unless someone is already super-interested in playing a tabletop game or has a social circle where it's a thing, it's honestly quite hard to get into it. Even if you have the money for it, you need to spend several hours just learning the rules. Then spend more time arranging a game. Then a lot of time actually playing it. That's way too much fucking work. The next edition of D&D needs to be able to both gather players easily and hop into the game easily. This means that in the future, someone should be able to play a Dungeons and Dragons game entirely over the Internet without seeing any of the players at all. Fortunately for you, the Information Age is making it easier every year to meet these design goals because the Internet is becoming more ubiquitous, devices are becoming more portable, and applications are becoming more advanced. But this requires the people in charge of the edition to recognize in the first that it's too hard to get into the gate. At the very least you should have the Character Builder, Character Visualizer, and Online Tabletop Programs rarin' to go like 4th Edition fucking promised us in the first place. But that's another story.

The second is making D&D COOL to play. Let's be honest with ourselves again; a lot of the things that we like about D&D look stupid to outsiders. Now while there's really not a lot you can do about that, it's not like you can't do ANYTHING. I recommend three focuses:

A) Style. D&D has a reputation for being a math and word-heavy game. The people who run the next edition should be paying out the asshole for artwork and stylization of the books. This means that we go back to 3E-style 'burned page' sourcebooks and that means having a picture on every page. You will also need to cut down on the wordage of each book. Your goal should seriously be 100,000 words for your MAJOR books.

B) Primary campaign setting. Quite frankly, to the perspective of a newcomer Greyhawk sucks. Eberron sucks. Forgotten Realms sucks.

Why? They're too hard to get into and the specific pieces of the campaign setting don't differentiate themselves enough. Someone should seriously be able to play a fully-functioning character in your setting after an hour's worth of work. This means relying on cliches and pop-cultural osmosis to build your settings. There should seriously be elemental nations like a Land of Fire, a Land of Ice, a Land of Seas, etc.. The Pantheon should be made of public-domain deities. The factions should be thinly-veiled pastiches of things people already recognize in entertainment; a megalomaniacal Monster Mash guild, the dottering Wizard's Council who fuck everything else, a group of Prince(ss) Charmings who gave up their royal titles in order to do good in the world, etc.. Your primary campaign setting should feel and play like a massively multiplayer crossover STORYBOOK. Not like that crap of Eberron and Greyhawk. If you have to sacrifice originality or realism for familiarity, then so be it.

C) Secondary campaign settings. I recommend that D&D licenses a campaign setting that is familiar to nerds at large but won't alienate grognards by being too pandering. I gave some anime examples, but you don't have to stop there. If you can wing it, certainly have a Harry Potter or Star Wars campaign setting available.

But you don't just stop there. Remember that boxed set I mentioned earlier? A moderately more advanced version of the boxed set should be available to 'hook' people interested in it on the Internet. But why did I recommend pushing the boxed set for the kids/tweens but pushing the Internet accessability for this group? Simple. Kids/tweens go to toy stores and are more likely to pick up things based on cool packaging and a couple of memes from what's 'in' from the cool peeps.


3) Returning/lapsed players. This is beyond the scope of this thread, since you have to get into specific mechanics to attract these. But these are the people who have already played previous editions of D&D. These are divided into two subgroups:

People who are a fan of previous editions but did not come onboard for 4th Edition. You can grab a good deal of these people by just by releasing an edition that's good. There are a number of people out there who will stick with 2E or 3E or 4E and won't get ANYTHING new just because it's new. Don't worry about targeting them. If they come on-board at ALL it will be because of word-of-mouth. One of 4E's problems attracting people is that it doesn't have momentum. With 3E, you could easily see it becoming a thing; d20 was the hottest new system and NWN was the most successful D&D-licensed videogame ever made. You can get the cynical holdouts by releasing a game that's good and doesn't make fun of their previous choices.

How do you make a good 5E? Well, that's beyond the scope of this thread. Check my Kick-Ass Marketing Campaign or Who Is Left to Rebuild the D&D Franchise threads if you want to go into more details. That has to do a lot more with mechanics and the reason why I split this thread off was to stop it from getting bogged down by mechanics discussions.

The other group you want to keep onboard are the 4E people. Even though 4E introduced a lot of bad ideas that need to be shooed from the game, the people who advertise the game need to continually reassure the audience that 5E will use a hybrid of 4E and previous edition tropes while putting in things of their own. Most of your assausaging should be going towards these fans, because it's harder to get mad at a new edition if you bailed out an edition ago.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Username17 »

I want you to guess which of these would look more fucking awesome on a character sheet:
Image
Image
Remember: people having awesome pictures on their character sheets when other people ask them what the fuck they are doing is advertising. Cool 3d models in the computer character builder is just a squeaky toy for people who have already drunk the koolaid. And yes, a bunch of paper doll items will en up only working on one of the stances - the face options for 3/4 profile will be totally different than the face options for the direct shot. But they'll be made by actual artists for the actual fucking paper doll, and they will look good.

And because it will be 2d work, people can make new pieces for it having only artistic talent (rather than artistic talent and 3d modelling experience). Sure, my mother eventually figured out how to make new objects for her Sims, but you want mod content to be coming out fast. And you want to be able to police this shit fast, because fans will be submitting stuff with penises in it like all the time.

The thing is, a one-off fan made 2d paper doll program like this one that runs in a fucking browser window actually makes cooler looking print-outs than the supposedly professional character generator in Oblivion.

-Username17
Last edited by Username17 on Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

FrankTrollman wrote:I want you to guess which of these would look more fucking awesome on a character sheet:
The second one. Seriously. Because that stupid barbarian in the first one isn't my character. It's something some other person drew and I'm stealing. It's no different than me going to danbooru, picking out some hot character, then cropping it onto my character sheet.

There's no sense of ownership from having static models that you paste barely-varying bits of artwork on, no more than using the paint tool to change a senshi's skirt from red to black.

FrankTrollman wrote: And because it will be 2d work, people can make new pieces for it having only artistic talent (rather than artistic talent and 3d modelling experience). Sure, my mother eventually figured out how to make new objects for her Sims, but you want mod content to be coming out fast. And you want to be able to police this shit fast, because fans will be submitting stuff with penises in it like all the time.
You don't actually want a bunch of people putting out their own things for it; as you noted it's a lot easier to draw in 2D than in 3D, but the people who can do the latter tend to have a modicum of talent. It's pointless dropping the entry bar requirement for fan-made entries, because most fan-made crap looks like, well, crap.

And you really don't need a thousand different armor styles. You need like 50.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by A Man In Black »

FrankTrollman wrote:I want you to guess which of these would look more fucking awesome on a character sheet:

[Frank Frazetta painting]

[Procedurally-generated content from a game that fired most of its artists before its abortive launch]
durr hurr

This 2D versus 3D argument, in the abstract, is retarded, and near as I can tell it's being argued by people who really don't know much about how you'd go about making such a character creator. It's going to come down to what resources you have and what looks best given the artists, programmers, time, and money you have available to devote to the subject. That Otaku Senshi site looks like shit, to be honest, but it was obviously made cheaply.

What a character creator IS good for is putting it out there in some sort of preview form to get people making images and get them excited for your game. Make a limited web-only version, give it away free, package it with something else, give it away with pre-orders of something, do SOMETHING to get the creator out there and in the hands of people who are going to talk it up as the greatest thing ever and a great reason to get back into D&D.
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Post by virgil »

Gonna have to agree with MiB there. It's more important on the effort put into the program than the choice between 2D and 3D. One example of an awesome 3D character generator is Champions Online. That is something I can see myself using D&D, and not something like it, but that exact program because it's so well done as it is.

If you put in the same kind of effort and skill into a 2D style generator as was put into Champions, then you're definition of 'barely-varying' bits of artwork would range from
Image
to
Image
to
Image
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Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Or you could just license the South Park character generator.
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Post by krainboltgreene »

3D art isn't difficult anymore. It's the year 2010.

Example: City Of Heroes, Champions, Spore...

At least, this is true in the video game industry. As always, the Pen and Paper industry is about 20 years behind.
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Post by Username17 »

krainboltgreene wrote:3D art isn't difficult anymore. It's the year 2010.

Example: City Of Heroes, Champions, Spore...

At least, this is true in the video game industry. As always, the Pen and Paper industry is about 20 years behind.
Those games have more programmers than WotC has employees.

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Post by A Man In Black »

FrankTrollman wrote:Those games have more programmers than WotC has employees.
So what? They're also a lot more involved than just a character creator (including setting up and maintaining an online game), and if you're spending your money right you're going to get a finished product with a relatively straightforward backend for a couple of house artists to easily add new content, rather than hiring on a whole development team in-house. It doesn't take a full MMO development team to get something like Spore Character Creator out the door, especially if you don't let the project succumb to the horrible feature creep SCC ended up with. Remember, dinky-ass shit like a World of Warcraft fan-run database can manage a 3D in-browser character viewer/editor, although they're stripping art assets from the WOW client.

There are technical advantages and disadvantages of 2D and 3D, but it doesn't matter. This is arguing in the extreme abstract. This isn't something you're going to do in-house, this is something you're going to solicit bids for, possibly as part of the license to make your 5E gold box/NWN games. Of those bids you're going to go with whoever can do the best job with their available skillsets.
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Post by Zinegata »

I'm not enitrely convinced that having a character generator would really add a lot more to how visually impressive an RPG is. Sure, you have a neat character sheet, and a book with a nice cover, but the rest of the game is just an empty table save for some dice.

Unless of course you go the minis route, or the FFG Warhammer FRGP 3rd edition.
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Post by Lokathor »

FrankTrollman wrote:The thing is, a one-off fan made 2d paper doll program like this one that runs in a fucking browser window actually makes cooler looking print-outs than the supposedly professional character generator in Oblivion.

-Username17
Holy shit. So fucking cool.
Image
:3
Last edited by Lokathor on Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Maj »

Lokathor wrote:Holy shit. So fucking cool.
Yep. Sent that one to my sister who cosplays Sailor Moon.

And really, poking around that site, there are a lot of cool character tools there. Thanks, Frank.

:maj:
Last edited by Maj on Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

A thought occurs.

Seriously, why can't you have both a 2D paper doll maker and a 3D one if you have the bread for it? That way people can choose which one they want to have. Or both. Or neither, if they find a picture on deviantart that they like enough.
FrankTrollman wrote:And remember: the primary output of the character visualizer is going to be a picture printed on the character sheet, which means it is going to be 2-dimensional anyway.
The point of the character visualizer isn't to create an image for a character sheet (because you can just rob art from art websites if you really care), it's to give people officially sanctioned D&D woodies for playing dressup with their barbarian.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Username17 »

Look, anyone can copypasta a picture from Deviant Art and photoshop it onto their character sheet. But no one does, because that is a lot of work and people do not know how to do it. The character builder needs a built in program that can crop a .jpg into the character picture box. It needed to have the ability to move pictures back and forth and zoom in and out so that players can grab pictures that are not in the center of the original composition and put them into the center of the character picture box. It needs, therefore, to be at least as good as Strange Eons, the program I did these with:

Image

-Username17
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