The Shadowrun Situation

[Ancient History]

Didn't really read up on the complete tempo stuff, but isn't tempo made from that same "tree"?

Nope. Different trees. Not man-eating.

[Stahlseele]

*shrugs*
would have been fitting somehow though . .
also, for those who haven't noticed yet, the first "official" shadowrun board went online with CGL . .
Uncle Bobby one of the first to post, as allways, and with substantive stuff too O.o
meh, only official board i need is dumpshock. and for the more controversial stuff, there's the den anyway <.<

Edit:
hmm, wonder how many People really would believe CrankTrollman to have been a simple typo . .

[TheFlatline]

I actually soured on Dumpshock right around when Bull started his obsession with belly button jewelry.

I left shortly thereafter.

[Neurosis]

I don't actually understand the point of the official forums.

This is the forum that hates CGL.

Dumpshock is the forum that likes CGL.

There is yin and yang in balance and everything is in equilibrium, right? But now you introduce these new official forums.

Or is it now meant to be a tripartite system? This is the forum that hates CGL, the official forums love CGL, and Dumpshock is neutral?

[Juton]

I think it's a packaging thing. You expect something like an RPG to have a forum that talks about it, linking to a 3rd party site may be a bit problematic because you don't have any editorial control over it itself.

What will probably happen is that the official forum will be nice and newbie friendly and Dumpshock will either become a haven for grognards or focus on one specific area of Shadowrun.

[Centurion13]

My experience with the BT forums is that you had better tread carefully and watch what you say. They gots a lot of fanboys who practically live there (take a look at the post counts on some of them) and are as rabid as can be. It's not friendly towards CGL - it's fanatically devoted.

And why not? It's CGL's site.

Cent13

[Otakusensei]

My experience with the BT forums is that you had better tread carefully and watch what you say. They gots a lot of fanboys who practically live there (take a look at the post counts on some of them) and are as rabid as can be. It's not friendly towards CGL - it's fanatically devoted.

And why not? It's CGL's site.

Cent13

Just checked in over at the official forums and I'm happy to see that Dumpshock has nothing to worry about. It looks like Jason is about as good with code as he is with the SR source material. And as long as he's spending time on forum skins he isn't writing SR books, so more power to him. I looked for AH and found his thread, and Jason's response. I don't know what's better, that the thread is already locked or that Jason doesn't appear to be the one who did it.

And yet, it is.

Also, what is up with the massively annoying sigs over there? It's a nitpick, but it just adds to the perception that CGL can't make anything even appear professional.

[Stahlseele]

Well, at least it was not deleted, so people can and will still see the thread and the nice stuff uncle bobby was friendly enough to share with us . . and they can still ask questions about it too . . but yeah, i was not really surprised to see it get locked with less than 10 posts . .

[Kaelik]

Link? I can't even find their official board with a google, I get dumpshock like 7 times.

[Ancient History]

Link. </pimp>

[Centurion13]

Link. </pimp>

Thanks. Yeah, disingenuous is the right word for that.

I think there's a special place in Hell for weasels, y'know?

Or at least I hope so.

Cent13

[knasser]

Link. </pimp>

This went live three days ago? How does it already have 118 threads / 970 posts?

I notice some common names. It was a full time job keeping track of just activity on Dumpshock. I can't see how many people will manage a dual-presence, so are people migrating? I noticed at least one mod in common (Caine Hazen)

K.

[Centurion13]

Link. </pimp>

This went live three days ago? How does it already have 118 threads / 970 posts?

IK.

Hey, I was wondering... is it possible to 'seed' a forum like that with posts and comments generated by only a handful of dedicated people? It would take hours and hours, but you could give the illusion of a decently-populated forum.

Is that what happened here? How many of those posters are wearing three or more hats?

Cent13

[Ancient History]

I don't believe that's the case here. This is a forum that was announced well in advance to a dedicated group of fans; it's still extremely small compared to most other forums, and has the occasional spambot problem inflating the numbers a touch. Wait for the initial rush to subside and we'll see what sort of staying power it has.

[Centurion13]

I don't believe that's the case here. This is a forum that was announced well in advance to a dedicated group of fans; it's still extremely small compared to most other forums, and has the occasional spambot problem inflating the numbers a touch. Wait for the initial rush to subside and we'll see what sort of staying power it has.

Fair enough. I didn't have all that close a look - sounds like you have a better idea of where it's at that goes beyond the numbers.

Cent13

[Fucks]

I notice some common names. It was a full time job keeping track of just activity on Dumpshock. I can't see how many people will manage a dual-presence, so are people migrating? I noticed at least one mod in common (Caine Hazen)

K.

Caine Hazen has "Group: Former Moderators" as title at dumpshock nowaydays. Guess he took the well-paid coporate job...

[Neurosis]

Just checked in over at the official forums and I'm happy to see that Dumpshock has nothing to worry about. It looks like Jason is about as good with code as he is with the SR source material. And as long as he's spending time on forum skins he isn't writing SR books, so more power to him.

Sometimes I feel bad for Jason and how much he gets dumped on here. I mean he himself is not a thief, right? He's not even accused of being one. As far as I can tell from this thread, the best way to explain his transgression is that he liked Shadowrun (even if arguments can be made that his creative vision is horribly misguided) more than he hated Loren Coleman. And as to the quality of his actual work I don't think I agree with the popular assessment here. It's really not all that bad. (Of course it's very hard to tell what comes from him and how it is mitigated by his writing staff.)

Know that I say this as pretty much a total outsider. And I'm aware this might not be the best place to talk about this. I'm really not trying to start shit.

[Maxus]

Know that I say this as pretty much a total outsider. And I'm aware this might not be the best place to talk about this. I'm really not trying to start shit.

Make a case then. What has Jason done well?

One thing I've learned around here is there isn't always just one right answer. Many times there's conflicting positions that can both be supported.

So if you can support your position, go for it.

And I say this as someone who's never played a game of Shadowrun (unless the SNES one counts) and who doesn't have a vested interest in this. Well, apart from hoping the bad guys lose.

[Ancient History]

Sometimes I feel bad for Jason and how much he gets dumped on here. I mean he himself is not a thief, right? He's not even accused of being one.

I may not be the best one to do this, but...whattafuck:

1) I still feel Jason has lied to, and generally misled, both the freelancers and the fans on multiple occasions.

2) Jason was responsible for the use of my material in Corporate Guide, and for telling other authors to use my ideas in the Sixth World Almanac. This was after I had taken some pains to ask him to avoid doing this.

3) Jason has systematically sided with Loren and Randall against those freelancers that have spoken out about them, both in public and in private. When first informed of Loren's ill-doings, his first action was to report the individual to Randall as spreading lies against the company.

4) Jason has on many occasions willfully and knowingly ignored proofing comments, errata, and other suggested changes that would improve a product or correct very obvious mistakes in a product. He has always evinced the attitude it was better to get something out rather than get something correct, even though in every instance I am aware of there was ample time to make the changes.

5) Jason has no vision for the line. He has not yet put forward a book that a prior line developer did not start (and mostly complete), and his few ideas put forth so far show a complete lack of understanding of Shadowrun's setting or purpose. His fiction often goes against canon, and his few attempts to answer rules have generally ended in complete failure. Despite claiming to have been a long-time editor for SR, Jason has not actually written that much - unless you count a particularly shitty SR novel.

I offer as evidence of his material the short story he managed to get in SR4A, or The Megacorporate Shuffle in Corp Guide that he wrote himself after I terminated my contracts (bastard couldn't even be bothered to change the title).

[Neurosis]

Make a case then. What has Jason done well?

One thing I've learned around here is there isn't always just one right answer. Many times there's conflicting positions that can both be supported.

So if you can support your position, go for it.

And I say this as someone who's never played a game of Shadowrun (unless the SNES one counts) and who doesn't have a vested interest in this. Well, apart from hoping the bad guys lose.

I love the SNES Shadowrun. It is actually the reason I have been a Shadowrun fan to this day.

I can't make a case for or against his character as a person. I don't know him. As for his quality of work...which Shadowrun 4E products are a direct result of his writing and editorial abilities? If you name x product where he was majorly involved (I mean I can't believe that the line developer is directly responsible for everything, all the time and it's hard to judge his abilities as a delegator) I can at least try and come up with an evaluation based on that.

All I really have to judge is Gaia's Heart, from SR4A. IIRC, I enjoyed this story upon first read. It was not my favorite, it was not my least favorite. I liked its use of an unreliable narrator, and I liked its underlying message...the fact that individuals in the 6th World cannot ever fully understand its secret history, and individuals--like Shadowrunners, the PCs--will never be able to see the full picture. It emphasizes certain themes of Shadowrun--paranoia, uncertainty-- while mixing in other themes like, for lack of a better word, Sanity Loss From Forbidden Knowledge, which might belong better in Call of Cthulhu. It's not flawless. Certain sentences are awkward on a craft level (though I do not expect any Shadowrun writers to be Hemingway, no offense), and some of the dialogue monologue is a bit melodramatic. From a nerdishly technical standpoint, I take issue with his use of the word "Essence" (captail E Essence != Magic/Magical power) and note that nothing in the story can possibly be canonical. It is bullshit. But of course the story is explicitly about bullshit. That doesn't necessarily mean the story is bullshit. Perhaps the biggest complaint about it I have is, it is essentially a paranoid schizophrenic hearing a wild story and being essentially pushed over the edge by a Social Adept and his Improved Ability (Con). In and of itself this doesn't have much to do with Shadowrun, and is certainly not how any Johnson is hiring any team, on a one-at-a-time basis by telling them crazy stories that drive them crazy.

So, like I said...not my favorite, not terrible. Not flawless but not shit. If there is anything else wrong with it besides what I mentioned, I am just not getting it. I only spent so much time discussing this two page short story because it's the only work I've seen with Jason Hardy's name directly on it.

@Ancient History:

As a freelance writer (sadly not in a creative field) who has been ripped off for large amounts of much-needed money and gone unpaid for horrible, back-breaking work by bosses who are essentially evil scumbags, I really, really feel for you. I can understand why you feel from your perspective that Jason has wronged you. And I can sympathize. A lot.

But I ultimately cannot take a side (either side) because ultimately I was not there. I do not know, and I cannot stress that enough. I am on the outside looking in through a very, very dirty window and the picture I am getting is not clear.

I want, badly, to like everyone on both sides even though they hate each other. (Why I give shit is simple: I love Shadowrun and I have for the entirety of my adult life, adolescence, and most of my childhood.) This doesn't stop me from following the ongoing feud (which I know is not the right word, you have severed ties with them and that's that) mainly in the vain hope that somehow everyone will get along. (Lol, yeah right, I know.)

[crizh]

Sometimes I feel bad for Jason and how much he gets dumped on here.

Cutting Bobby loose when he did because Jason's nose was out of joint was a huge mistake from a pragmatic fiscal point of view. Four or five pieces of work had to be re-written at the last minute or pulled from sale. Money that CGL could have received they didn't and products that could have gone to print did not. For months.

But you could light Jason on fire and he would still never admit that he might have reacted prematurely or unwisely.

He genuinely does not believe that he is under any moral or ethical imperative to honour a legally binding contract.

If he thinks that there is a 'greater good' he will cut that shit loose in a heartbeat.

He is a Johnson not a Runner.

[Neurosis]

Do you mind if I ask who you are? I know Robert and Frank's names but not yours. It seems from your post like you work(ed) for CGL.

[crizh]

No, not really, I did a little playtesting for them last year. I think I might have a credit in DoTA and Running Wild. I'm nobody really.

All my contact with CGL was through Jen though. Any contact I've had with Jason has been on DS.

I've always felt that one of the best ways to earn credibility on-line is to admit when you're wrong. Everybody fucks up now and again, how hard is it to admit it when someone demonstrates your error?

People that don't are asshole egomaniacs or Trolls. Or Corporate Shills.

[Zinegata]

Would it break people's hearts to hear that Shadowrun somehow managed to be the 4th bestselling RPG of Q2 2010 (according to ICV2 - coming behind D&D, Pathfinder, and Warhammer FRPG?)

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/18045.html

[Blasted]

no. Should it?