Role Playing in Avatar.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:49 am

Mask_De_H wrote: Yeah, I really didn't like the way they handled refresh in DFRPG, or in LoA for that matter. Being more powerful should equal having more chances to if not dick with the narrative, at least take advantage of the tags you laid on somebody effectively. Spirit of the Century hacks tend to disregard that part, and just make Refresh a point buy system that allows you to keep your Fate Points.

Since Dresden Files is my first Fate RPG, can you point me to those Hacks?
And what is LoA?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:57 pm

The Dresden Files Backlash/Fallout system for insufficient magic control is a really bad fit for Avatar. Yes, there is that whole subplot about how Fire is a dangerous element and you can accidentally burn people and things with it - but that's just Fire. No one ever accidentally devastates the battlefield or hurts their friends with Air.

As for Dresden Files as a game in and of itself, the whole paying Refresh for magic options really feels to me like it encourages people to be magical one trick ponies. Every power you get is worth less than your last power because everything comes off the same reserve (Fate Points and Actions), and since everything is pretty damn free form, you can likely use almost any power you have to do almost anything you want to do. But each new power you get costs the same refresh if it's your first power or twenty first. So... optimal play seems to be to become an X-Man. Get a single magic power, then just get better at it.

-Username17

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:48 pm

Korwin: The SotC SRD is one if I recall correctly. Diaspora gives you three stunts, at no hit to Fate Points, and Spirit of the Fist sets them up as Harmonies and Kung Fu. Mythic Heroes just flat out gives you powers like DFRPG, without setting points on fire. You pay in XP for 'em though. And LoA is Legends of Anglerre, the FATE fantasy heartbreaker and pretty sweet toolbox in its own right. They do the same one stunt = one Fate Point thing though too.

Frank: that would be true if they didn't kick the templates that are supposed to try that in the balls. Focused Practitioner gets one schtick from Evocation or Thaumagury, and can't take Refinement. Sorceror gets the full monty, but can only take the vertical advancement Refinement once. Wizards can take it as much as they want, but they pay the highest starting Fate Point tax outside of the sparkle vampires. So either you play a Scion, take Sponsored Magic [Summer, Soulfire, or a custom that allows you to pull some uber-quickened bullshit] and pull an end-run around the GM, or you suck Wizard template cock and like it. As a FATE fan and a Dresden Files fan, the DFRPG makes me nerd rage. It's the most popular version of FATE though, and the most restricive.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:04 pm

I dunno, Toph nearly kills Aang several times, though that's intentional. And Kitara does douse Sokka repeatedly.

^-^

-Crissa

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:15 pm

Shit, forgot to address Kaelik. We've been over the narrative causality yarn a couple of times on this board, and I'm just trying to say that Sokka's actions can be construed through the bounds of the FATE system, just as Ty Lee's paralyzing dim mak can be placing a Physical consequenceo
of "Can't Bend", or Sokka nailing Sparky Sparky Boom Man right in his third eye aspect, causing him to explode. The Fate Point economy isn't soley herp derp imma get the GM to baby me, it powers the abilities of all characters, with an eye towards those who can't set people on fire with their minds.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:12 am

Mask_De_H wrote:Korwin: The SotC SRD is one if I recall correctly. Diaspora gives you three stunts, at no hit to Fate Points, and Spirit of the Fist sets them up as Harmonies and Kung Fu. Mythic Heroes just flat out gives you powers like DFRPG, without setting points on fire. You pay in XP for 'em though. And LoA is Legends of Anglerre, the FATE fantasy heartbreaker and pretty sweet toolbox in its own right. They do the same one stunt = one Fate Point thing though too.

Thanks, some reading to do.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:22 am

I'll be playing a Dresden Files one shot on Saturday, so maybe I'll be able to give some in-play commentary on the system.

After a character creation session earlier, it looks like it *could* work, but I'm not sure. The element system for evocation is promising for Avatar.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:32 am

Ok, so we did the Dresden Files thing today.

First: Character Creation is it's own session. People should create characters together, and can intertwine backgrounds. Then the group creates the City much like it creates a background for a character, assigning aspects and such.

Second: Evocation is probably a pretty good fit for bending, actually. Looking at it in game, the characters could throw out custom stuff on the fly, preferably with a flavour towards their element. My buddy was playing a wizard whose element was earth and he was doing earthbender shit like coating an opponent's feet in rock to trap them, sucking the opponent down into the ground, and throwing rocks from the ground to disarm.

Third: People need to use their aspects, and have their aspects invoked. three of the five characters had refresh rates of one, meaning they had a single fate point at the start of play. I was able to rack a few up by playing to my aspects and going with a compel.

Fourth: It was a lot of fun. The system is very much more a narrative system than a tactical system, but this can work with a certain style of play.

Specific cases. I was playing a dragon that got cursed, sealed in a human form. He can breath steam, and has a mark that shows people in the know that he's big mojo, and he can temporarily drop his human form to turn into a dragon again, but it fills a special stress (damage) track, so every dragon power he uses means he takes that power's refresh rate cost as an attack to his "Virtue" stress track at the end of the scene (one attack, the costs of each power used add up. It's the same thing a vampire has to show powers fueled by blood, it's just reflavoured).

Running into the combat and needing a sword, but not having one, the dm offered me a fate point to steal a sword from a martial artist performing a kata in a street festival, basically playing on the fact that my character is an arrogant dragon and takes what he needs, especially in times of stress. (he didn't site a particular aspect)

One of his aspects is "I'm a god-damned dragon" which I used to turn his breath weapon from a single target attack into an area attack, spending a fate point to do so (I think this is the aspect the gm used for the sword thing)

The character's trouble aspect is "Sometimes my pants are too tight" referring to the fact that he's a 50' long dragon crammed into human form, and I was able to invoke this to act out of initiative and instantly turn into a dragon, covering the group from rocket fire, which the gm basically saw as triggering three of my aspects, and gave me three points for. I used the consequence system to take the rocket hit as a moderate consequence (crippled left arm) instead of taking four damage, and gained another fate point at the end of scene for taking a consequence that scene.

This all made for a wonderful cinematic game (and I haven't mentioned what the wizards, vampire or were-gorilla did), that was a lot of fun. fate points save your ass in this system, like when the were-gorilla picked up a couple frag grenades, spending a fate point for one of his aspects, and just launched the damn things out of sight so we didn't get hit with them.

So, that all said, Sokka, in a Fate/Dresden Files system game, has a very clear position in the party, he's the fate well, raining points down to keep everyone alive. And, he may not actually have 9 or 10 points, because he's probably got at least a few stunts, even so, while the benders are running around throwing elements around, Sokka keeps them alive, whether through strategy or luck.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 11:25 am

Fate3 is a rules light engine, and a good one. Fate points are the key mechanic and they do "stuff." As such the game is only slightly more structured than a round of Cops And Robbers. The relative value of a Fate point is wholly arbitrary. One GM might charge one Fate point to grab a grenade that is about to go off and throw it back at an enemy. Another GM might charge a Fate point to get to the grenade in time, a Fate point to throw it away, and a Fate point to nail the enemies with it. And yet another GM might charge you a Fate point just to make a test to do those things.

So yes, you can do Avataresque earthbending, but only in the trivial way that you can play an Earthbender in any rules light system just by announcing that you are going to do that. You could do Münchhausen or Teenagers From Outer Space for Avatar too. Those are rules-light games where you can write down any power you want and thus could write "Earthbending" down and then tell the other party members how you were using Kung Fu to make giant rocks fly around. But in any of those cases, we're just talking "Avatar of the Gaps" - that the rules don't say you can't come in with a Water Bender, so nothing it stopping you from doing an Avatar campaign.

But the point of picking a system and statting up a game is not to create a game format that won't stop you from playing Avatar characters, but to actually create a rule set that facilitates playing characters in that setting. Having looked at it closer, Dresden Files RPG does not deliver on that score.

Yes, it has "Earth Magic" as an option in it. And playing a specialist who only uses one of the five elements is an option in the game. And it's a relatively rules light system with a lot of ad hoccing and persuasion built in to the mechanics.So you could do all the things that The Boulder does with earthbending with your DFRPG style Earth Wizardry. But, the actual mechanics of the game are being fought the whole way. The Boulder isn't draining his ability to bend by bending, his ability to bend only gets drained when he is hit in the nuts with rocks. The Boulder isn't dependent on or benefited by magic amulets or wands of earthiness. The Boulder doesn't "lose control" of his earth and get backlash damage into his face. None of the raw accounting of actually using Earth Magic in DFRPG is in any way supportive of the way bending appears to work in the Avatar cartoons or comics.

-Username17

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:16 am

FrankTrollman wrote:The Boulder isn't draining his ability to bend by bending, his ability to bend only gets drained when he is hit in the nuts with rocks. The Boulder isn't dependent on or benefited by magic amulets or wands of earthiness. The Boulder doesn't "lose control" of his earth and get backlash damage into his face.

I giggled insanely when I read this in his voice.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:05 am

A Man In Black wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:The Boulder isn't draining his ability to bend by bending, his ability to bend only gets drained when he is hit in the nuts with rocks. The Boulder isn't dependent on or benefited by magic amulets or wands of earthiness. The Boulder doesn't "lose control" of his earth and get backlash damage into his face.
I giggled insanely when I read this in his voice.

That is pretty funny actually.

@Frank: Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at in my response to you and Ryan: DFRPG doesn't work as a whole-hog port for Avatar due to the mechanical considerations constraining it to the world it is in. Evocation was offered as an idea on how to handle the concept of bending, via the Attack/Block/Maneuver/Counter designation.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:53 am

Mask de H wrote:That is pretty funny actually.

Would you believe that is the actual reason I decided to use The Boulder in that example instead of Toph?

@Frank: Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at in my response to you and Ryan: DFRPG doesn't work as a whole-hog port for Avatar due to the mechanical considerations constraining it to the world it is in. Evocation was offered as an idea on how to handle the concept of bending, via the Attack/Block/Maneuver/Counter designation.

The different Refresh rates just seem like a bad idea in general. Fate points are the most important resource, but how much each one is worth and how fast you get them without resorting to Refresh and how often your Refresh triggers are all "whatever the GM feels like." So Refresh has no consistent value, or anything even remotely close to one.

Specifically on the Avatar front, the Attack/Block/Maneuver/Counter designation is a bad one - since blocking and countering are not different things in the Avatar verse. Also, the "Maneuvering" designation would have to be so broad as to be basically meaningless - since it would have to include creating Earth Armor, Flying Around, creating the Water Octopus and so on. Which basically leaves use with a three part "Attack/Defend/Stuff" designation, which is so broadly unhelpful that you might as well go to two designations: Actions (describe what you're doing to the GM) and Reactions (Roll dice to avoid getting crushed by enemy bending/attacks).

I could see using a Fate3 base. Fate3 is a pretty good rules-light core system. But the Dresden Files RPG specific rules do not appear to help facilitate Avatar function. And frankly I suspect Avatar wants a less rules light approach than that.

-Frak

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:04 am

yeah, the tactics light take of DFRPG is actually a really poor fit to a game where you're supposed to flip out and kill people with kung fu.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:06 am

Question about Avatar: is it me or is the entire world really freakin' small? Heck, the seemingly huge Earth nation that Ozai planned to burn to the ground is apparently small enough that he could fly over from coast to coast while the comet was in the sky for a couple hours.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Wed Jun 30, 2010 3:36 am

virgileso wrote:Question about Avatar: is it me or is the entire world really freakin' small? Heck, the seemingly huge Earth nation that Ozai planned to burn to the ground is apparently small enough that he could fly over from coast to coast while the comet was in the sky for a couple hours.

The show tends to ignore distances. I mean, they went from the south pole to the north pole, using Appa. In the first season. Although they spent two days flying over water when they were close to the north pole.

But, still, they cross and criss-cross the world a couple of times in less than a year.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:18 am

Distances are wildly inconsistent. It takes them pretty much the entire first season to go from one pole to the other. On the other hand, Katara and Zuko are able to fly from the Air Nation to a Fire Nation naval tower to a ship patrolling the South Pole to a civilian town deep in the Fire Nation and back in... a day apparently.

The entire four part finale takes only 4 days. They take time to find a bounty hunter and track people by scent. Zuko starts in the Fire Nation, has a beach party, goes to a pirate outpost on the far end of the Earth Nation, has a shirshu track Iroh by scent to the Great Wall, then have a heart-to-heart with his uncle, and then split up again to go back to the Fire Nation to have a confrontation with his sister in Azulon.

Basically it seems to use video game distances. Places you haven't been to yet are traveled to with an adventure, while places you have been to are traveled to with a cut scene.

-Username17

the_taken · Post by **the_taken** » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:29 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Basically it seems to use video game distances. Places you haven't been to yet are traveled to with an adventure, while places you have been to are traveled to with a cut scene.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:58 pm

a friend of mine made a good point. benders do tire themselves out, but it's more the physical stress of going through the forms, than mental stress of calling up energies arcane and eldritch.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:40 am

I just saw the movie. True Story: The "M. Night Shyamalan Twist" this time is that the entire movie is bad. The plot is rushed, the dialog is horrible, and half (or more) of the people in the movie don't play their parts particularly well. Also, they don't even do as much bending as you'd expect. le sigh.

It's kinda... ironically bad. Like a hipster. It's a hipster if a hipster was a film adaptation.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:07 pm

Bumping now that I've seen the show

1: This looks awesome

2: Why is everyone afraid of Firelord Ozai? He's just a firebender, right? He doesn't know dragonfire or lightning redirection (though he can shoot lightning), he doesn't have blue fire or any other named special technique or power.

3: Shadowbenders? Citation needed, google shows nothing. Is it a special firebending technique?

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:39 pm

That's a bit like asking why people are afraid of bears, since they're not skilled at martial arts. Lord Ozai is simply very good at burning things like people. Not very fancy, but it works.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:45 pm

name_here wrote:That's a bit like asking why people are afraid of bears, since they're not skilled at martial arts. Lord Ozai is simply very good at burning things like people. Not very fancy, but it works.

Well, yeah. As I've paraphrased from Dresden Files several times recently, fire is the universal cleanser of mankind, and it cleanses people about as well as it cleanses eldritch horrors. With burning.

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:12 pm

Lokathor wrote:I just saw the movie. True Story: The "M. Night Shyamalan Twist" this time is that the entire movie is bad.

Isn't this the usual M. Night Shyamalan twist?

I can't actually think of a movie of his that was terribly good.

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:42 am

Caedrus wrote:I can't actually think of a movie of his that was terribly good.

Unbreakable is genuinely great.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:47 am

Orion wrote: 2: Why is everyone afraid of Firelord Ozai? He's just a firebender, right? He doesn't know dragonfire or lightning redirection (though he can shoot lightning), he doesn't have blue fire or any other named special technique or power.

He isn't -just- a firebender. He's just flat-out powerful at it. Sure, Azula has more flash and Iroh has more technique. But he's still on a par with all of them.

Given how free-form bending tends to be, well, named techniques don't amount to much.