The Shadowrun Situation

[Clutch9800]

I find it hilarious that after spewing character assassinations aspersions and general FUD at me, Sandstorm, Phil DeLuca, and everyone here... that he edited a statement that people who attack the messenger rather than the message probably don't have an argument right out of his own argument. It means he does learn.

-Username17

It's not a "Character Assassanation" if it's true Frank.

[Neurosis]

Maybe I am failing my Sense Motive Check here but it seems to me...

Someone whom I trust implicitly and who has impeccable bona fides has informed me that Loren did indeed steal from the company, and that pretty much everything he's been accused of is in fact true to a large extent.

...that Clutch is not defending LLC.

Which begs the question what exactly his point IS.

[Maxus]

Oh, that the Den is full of horrible people who jump to conclusions without evidence despite there being a lot of evidence that said conclusions, if not 100% on the mark, aren't far from it.

He's mostly been in this thread. Him and a clown named Taharqa. Go back to page 1 and start reading and let me know what their actual points are, because neither of them made much sense. There's also an Embezzlement in Catalyst thread that Clutch may have appeared in before it was shut down.

[Centurion13]

October 18th looms in the headlights.

Meanwhile I am wondering if the CGL lawyer will be able to find reasons to delay, complicate or otherwise set the date back again.

It's unlikely anyone here would know what he had available, but how likely is it that this could drag out for years?

Cent13

[Clutch9800]

Oh, that the Den is full of horrible people who jump to conclusions without evidence despite there being a lot of evidence that said conclusions, if not 100% on the mark, aren't far from it.

He's mostly been in this thread. Him and a clown named Taharqa. Go back to page 1 and start reading and let me know what their actual points are, because neither of them made much sense. There's also an Embezzlement in Catalyst thread that Clutch may have appeared in before it was shut down.

My point is that this shit sucks. Loren did a bad, bad thing. However, when he did that he painted some guys I would trust to watch my back into a corner. I think that sucks.

Look in the mirror and tell yourself that if you built something from the sweat of your brow for three years, you wouldn't go to the matresses to try and save it.

That's what Randall Bills is doing. I trust him, and I give him the benefit of the doubt.

Clutch

[Ancient History]

Randall Bills reminds me of some alcoholics I know; not because of any substance dependency but because he's very good at making friends and apologizing to people. The fact is, Randall is a tool. He supports Loren above and beyond any financial or personal interest he has in the company. You can't trust him, because he is part of the problem.

[Clutch9800]

Randall Bills reminds me of some alcoholics I know; not because of any substance dependency but because he's very good at making friends and apologizing to people. The fact is, Randall is a tool. He supports Loren above and beyond any financial or personal interest he has in the company. You can't trust him, because he is part of the problem.

Ergo, my issue. I do trust him Bobby.

By the way, all the alcoholics I know are freaking assholes.

Clutch

[Username17]

Randall Bills has certainly permanently lost my trust. The moment someone says that they are putting religion before justice, integrity, and financial rectitude they have thoroughly painted themselves with the irrationality brush. They literally cannot be trusted, because they have said that the voices of invisible spirits that only they can hear are more important than honoring contracts. Or you know, acting in a trustworthy fashion.

The part where I don't want him to touch Battletech or Shadowrun comes in where in addition to simply not trusting him in general comes in where he threatened to throw a temper tantrum and nuke the settings if his friend got taken to task for having stolen other peoples' money. That's jut bad storytelling.

-Username17

[Clutch9800]

The part where I don't want him to touch Battletech or Shadowrun comes in where in addition to simply not trusting him in general comes in where he threatened to throw a temper tantrum and nuke the settings if his friend got taken to task for having stolen other peoples' money. That's jut bad storytelling.

Well, it might be bad story-telling, but it sounds like a good story.

Tell us about this temper tantrum.

Clutch

[Username17]

Tell us about this temper tantrum.

Clutch

It's not that interesting. When confronted with the idea that Loren might have to relinquish the company on account of having spent all of the investors' money on himself, Randall went off on a big tirade about how if Loren was removed then the next person to get the properties would get nothing but bunch of smoking craters after he (Randall) had nuked everything.

This is amongst the reasons that I don't trust him. It's one thing to get pissy about people taking away your creative control or something, but making the actual threat that if your friend can't have the setting than no one can is plain nuts. It means that he seriously just doesn't even care about the settings in any way I recognize.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

Considering that other gaming IPs have retconned entire gaming lines and years of story/continuity into oblivion, that strikes me as a particularly empty threat.

"I'll destroy the setting if I don't get what I want!"

"Fine, when we get it we'll say everything you did to destroy the setting really didn't happen, and continue on merrily."

"... Well... well... I'll hold my breath until I DIE! That'll show you!"

[Ancient History]

It's a true story though. Randall apparently said that at an owner's meeting. It's in the minutes. I wish I had a copy to prove it to y'all.

[Juton]

A large portion of the Battletech fans (myself included) would be happy to see the most current storyline retconned. Battletech hasn't had any major continuity edits so far, but that doesn't mean its fans aren't amenable to the idea.

[Centurion13]

Randall Bills has certainly permanently lost my trust.

Mine also, but for a slightly different take on Frank's stated reasons.

"...because they have said that the voices of invisible spirits that only they can hear are more important than honoring contracts."

The issue for me is this: if the invisible spirits (and really, Frank, is there any other kind?) he's supposedly listening to are remotely Judeo-Christian, they would not be counseling the aiding and abetting of betrayal, theft and lies. That Randall claims he does tells me Randall's ability to discern between good and evil, choose the correct one and apply it appears to be somewhat... impaired.

"The moment someone says that they are putting religion before justice, integrity, and financial rectitude they have thoroughly painted themselves with the irrationality brush.'

Given the tenets of the faith, absolutely. He is supposedly putting a variant of Christianity up as the motivation behind his standing by and abetting a crook in getting away with his crookedness. Anyone with even a grade-school knowledge of the faith knows that is 180-degrees out from what Christ (and His Father) demand of us. It's the same problem we have with Catholicism - it's bad enough some few priests are molesting children. What makes it worse is that the Church and its leaders, people who know better, hide it. As if God can't see it. Makes you wonder what or how much they really believe, but that is another issue.

But they're not irrational, Frank. Not at all. See, you might be misled into thinking they're Christians who violate their own rules. Not only deluded but also dishonest and hypocritical.

But they aren't.

They're following a different faith entirely.

Someone once asked CS Lewis to name the most satisfying religion in the world. He thought about it for a moment, then replied "Well, for as long as it lasts, the worship of one's own self".

What Randall is actually exercising is loyalty to an organization for the promotion of people associated with an offshoot of Christianity. It is NOT the Mormon Church - it is an Old Boy Network intertwined with the Church. God has nothing whatever to do with it.

He's drawing fire to the wrong people with this 'my faith tells me' crap. His 'faith' is that his fellow Members will cover his ass if he covers theirs. And little more.

"...he threatened to throw a temper tantrum and nuke the settings if his friend got taken to task for having stolen other peoples' money."

That merely confirms the part Randall's ego is playing in all this. If he can't have it on his terms, no one will. He will destroy everything the fans hold dear if the fans don't leave off his fellow Member.

I wonder if Randall understands that he is no longer a Member in good standing? He ceased to be one the instant he admitted (1) there was a Membership and that (2) his loyalty to it and his fellow Members counted for more than adherence to mere morality. Neither is particularly damning, but Randall's mistake was to do all of this in public.

He has been a convenient tool - currently in use and soon to be discarded or (more likely) fed to the wolves. Can you imagine his surprise and dismay as his 'best buddy' executes one final betrayal and leaves him in the lurch?

"Homo homini lupus"

How fitting.

Cent13[/b]

[TheFlatline]

A large portion of the Battletech fans (myself included) would be happy to see the most current storyline retconned. Battletech hasn't had any major continuity edits so far, but that doesn't mean its fans aren't amenable to the idea.

Often times the reboot/retcon or "alternate envisioning" serves to restore some legitimacy to a line.

Paranoia took an amusing approach to this by declaring any reference to the previous edition as treason. Traveller decided to say that they were going to develop an "alternate timeline" where the third imperium or whatever never devolved into civil war. It seems to be the default setting that anyone I've ever met played traveller in anyway.

It sounds like BT is headed for an inevitable retcon. The question is, how far down this line are they going to go before they roll back and say "what if?"

[Juton]

Often times the reboot/retcon or "alternate envisioning" serves to restore some legitimacy to a line.

Paranoia took an amusing approach to this by declaring any reference to the previous edition as treason. Traveller decided to say that they were going to develop an "alternate timeline" where the third imperium or whatever never devolved into civil war. It seems to be the default setting that anyone I've ever met played traveller in anyway.

It sounds like BT is headed for an inevitable retcon. The question is, how far down this line are they going to go before they roll back and say "what if?"

The obvious cutoffs are 4th succession war (3028), Clan Invasion (3050), Operation Bulldog (3058), FedCom Civil War (3060), Jihad (3067). I doubt that they'd get rid of the Clans, they're just too ingrained in the setting. If they do reboot the Jihad is the most likely to go, it just depends if they want to go back far enough to keep the FedCom from splintering. I think the setting is more interesting if they keep the FedCom but allow various realms to splinter off from it.

Either way they can reboot to back around 3067 for a '5th Succession War' with the Clan factions making another push towards Terra while fighting amongst themselves, while the other houses try and take advantage of the chaos. Sound like it could be interesting to me.

[Centurion13]

Mmmm. And leave all that work they did throughout the BT universe - new machines, etc - languish as books no one will ever buy again?

I guess it could happen. I thought they were going to hop over the sixty years of 'Devlin Stone's Peace' using writer's fiat. You know, and get on with writing a future which has fewer restrictive ties to the past. Mostly because all the treasured, hoary major players are dead, dead, dead. Of old age, of neglect, of whatever - they're gone, their children are gone, and there aren't any strong ties to keep the writers...

...well, honest to the game itself. But that's just my opinion. We will have to see how things play out.

Cent13

[LR]

They're following a different faith entirely.

If one of the faith's precepts is that you should cut other Mormons some slack in business ventures, then that is part of the Mormon religion. It doesn't become a part of some different cult just because it was added for secular reasons, because that's the only type of reason anyone can have for adding to a religion. It's the only type of reason for which religions are created. There is no actual evidence for revelation and I can say with a very large degree of certainty that this situation will never change.

People's actions are informed by their beliefs, and Randall Bills has demonstrated that he does not care about the validity of his beliefs. It doesn't matter if he's following the "wrong" faith or listening to the "wrong" spirits, because it is impossible for him to demonstrate that he listening to any spirits. His insistence on acting upon what he thinks he hears from these spirits makes him unable to make informed decisions about the real world. If you are not making decisions in the real world based on your experiences in that world, then you are delusional, and everyone who is rational has every reason not to trust you.

[magnuskn]

A large portion of the Battletech fans (myself included) would be happy to see the most current storyline retconned. Battletech hasn't had any major continuity edits so far, but that doesn't mean its fans aren't amenable to the idea.

Oh, gods, that would be sweet. Can anybody go and really annoy Bills, so that he goes and nukes the current BT setting? A reset to, say, 3058 or 3060 would be very nice. ^^ Certainly before Omi dies.

[Centurion13]

They're following a different faith entirely.

"There is no actual evidence for revelation and I can say with a very large degree of certainty that this situation will never change."

I'm sorry, but your requirements for evidence would appear rather strict. Though... I would probably agree with you in 99% of the cases.

No, you cannot say with any degree of certainty the situation will never change. You have no degree of certainty you will even be here tomorrow. Like the rest of us, you have faith that things will happen tomorrow based on what has happened in the past. This, despite the stock analyst's repeated warning that "Past performance cannot be used to predict future returns".

Perhaps it is identical to the same faith practiced in a church? I cannot say. But reason does not cover everything in this world of ours and that's a fact.

I reject the man because he does not, in fact, base his behavior on faith of any sort beyond what you will find in the local frat house. And I resent his dragging God into the matter.

Cent13

Edit: Thanks, Z. And my apologies to all for very nearly derailing the thread. After all, I agree with Frank / / / you'd think I would take less words to say so. :-/

fixed quote tags --Z

[Clutch9800]

Randall apparently said that at an owner's meeting.

What do you mean "Owners Meeting"? I thought we'd pretty much established that the Coleman's own the whole kit and kaboodle.

If there was an "Owners Meeting" and people were invited to it wouldn't that legally imply that they were owners?

Clutch

[Username17]

Randall apparently said that at an owner's meeting.

What do you mean "Owners Meeting"? I thought we'd pretty much established that the Coleman's own the whole kit and kaboodle.

If there was an "Owners Meeting" and people were invited to it wouldn't that legally imply that they were owners?

Clutch

That at least is easy: Loren Coleman has been telling about 12-15 people simultaneously that they did in fact own some portion of In Media Res for the last 3 or 4 years. He has taken money from them in exchange for this, written pieces of paper that said that they owned "stock", held meetings with these "owners" and filled out Tax Forms as if they were entitled to some portion of the company's profits by dint of owning parts of it.

The revelation that IMR is in fact not the kind of company that can sell stock in any real way, and that Loren Coleman registered the company personally and never even included the other listed founders of the company when he did it - that's all relatively new. When David Stansel-Garner stopped working for IMR, he was under the impression that he in fact still owned part of it, but did not think that owning part of the company was worth very much given its dire financial situation.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

Mmmm. And leave all that work they did throughout the BT universe - new machines, etc - languish as books no one will ever buy again?

I guess it could happen. I thought they were going to hop over the sixty years of 'Devlin Stone's Peace' using writer's fiat. You know, and get on with writing a future which has fewer restrictive ties to the past. Mostly because all the treasured, hoary major players are dead, dead, dead. Of old age, of neglect, of whatever - they're gone, their children are gone, and there aren't any strong ties to keep the writers...

...well, honest to the game itself. But that's just my opinion. We will have to see how things play out.

Cent13

I should amend that the retcon/reboot option almost *always* happens when a new company takes over the IP. If for whatever reason Topps awarded the IP to a different company there might be a significant chance of rewriting some history or as was also posted, jumping forward 50 or 60 years and retaining the history, but not the direction BT lore is going in.

[Kaelik]

Hey dumb whiny bitch who has to trot out stupid shit to defend his religious beliefs in a place where it has nothing to do with anything.

Fix your goddam quote tags.

[Centurion13]

Hey dumb whiny bitch who has to trot out stupid shit to defend his religious beliefs in a place where it has nothing to do with anything.

Fix your goddam quote tags.

Cowlick! You're back! They're fixed