The reason fighters can't have nice things.

[K]

Badass normals need plot immunity. There really is no other way to do it.

I mean, the people who follow around Inuyasha or Buffy the Vampire Slayer go to battles where if the enemy ever got a hit on them their faces would explode.... so the only way they get to accompany the hero is if the plot won't let them get hit in battles.

It the same in every story where an normal person hangs with a super-guy. In mean, in Robocop his partner doesn't get shot in the face even though Robocop himself is hammered with automatic fire in every scene.

I mean, I could keep giving you examples. Sokka in the The Last Airbender. Every female romantic interest who is in love with a vampire (Twilight, Vampire Diaries, etc). Harry fucking Potter.

[Princess]

In mean, in Robocop his partner doesn't get shot in the face even though Robocop himself is hammered with automatic fire in every scene.

Every hero have plot immunity. Superman is guaranteed he'll not be ass-raped with cryptonite dildo, and when he gets mind controlled again there will be batman who will not ass-rape him with cryptonite dildo but rather find a way to remove mind control.

[Neeeek]

I mean, the people who follow around Inuyasha or Buffy the Vampire Slayer go to battles where if the enemy ever got a hit on them their faces would explode....

I dunno, Xander got his ass kicked pretty hard regularly in Buffy. To the point that he complained about it, and other characters have suggested he should stay home.

That said, the comments about player skill seem short-sighted. Yes, players significantly smarter than the DM will run rings around them. That has nothing to do with the rules, and just illustrates how much more powerful certain allowed archetypes are than others.

[violence in the media]

I mean, the people who follow around Inuyasha or Buffy the Vampire Slayer go to battles where if the enemy ever got a hit on them their faces would explode....

I dunno, Xander got his ass kicked pretty hard regularly in Buffy. To the point that he complained about it, and other characters have suggested he should stay home.

That's the point of the complaint. Xander's plot immunity kept him from being killed. Any one of those vampires or demons that got a hold of him should have been able to end him without a second thought.

[Prak]

I mean, the people who follow around Inuyasha or Buffy the Vampire Slayer go to battles where if the enemy ever got a hit on them their faces would explode....

I dunno, Xander got his ass kicked pretty hard regularly in Buffy. To the point that he complained about it, and other characters have suggested he should stay home.

That's the point of the complaint. Xander's plot immunity kept him from being killed. Any one of those vampires or demons that got a hold of him should have been able to end him without a second thought.

But he still got his ass kicked more than anyone else. I don't know, maybe the blood thirst psuedo-rapists have some kind of thing about not hitting girls (who don't have super powers) and he was the acceptable target.

...maybe he was the only one early one trying to help in the actual fights...

[Username17]

The point isn't that plot immunity makes it so that Xander will never have to be rescued. Or that he'll never get beat up. Or that he will never get injured or lose a fight. All of that shit happens to Xander all the time. But he never dies. While he may get slapped around a bit by a recently deceased high school girl or have a crate thrown into his chest, it is absolutely guaranteed that any time anyone fires a gun or conjures hellfire so intense that it melts steel, or throws a car, or does anything else that would actually kill his ass, that it at worst barely misses him.

The point is that when people use attacks that would actually kill Xander they never ever hit. Because Xander is in the credits and literally can't die until the end.

This is the very crux of the Elennsar problem. You cannot replicate the events in stories like that without admitting that the terrifyingly lethal events shown in the world have little or no actual chance of taking the head off the protagonists. Because people roll 20s about 5% of the time, so if you were actually rolling fair dice to determine whether people like Xander lived or died, they would all die long before we got to the end of the show.

-Username17

[Sashi]

What I call the Hunter Dissonance is the best expression of the difficulty of implementing a Badass Normal in a setting with supernatural creatures.

Hunters in White Wolf are literally normal dudes who get touched on the dick by magic beings and given magic powers ... so they can kill all those magic beings that mess with normal humans.

[Maxus]

What I call the Hunter Dissonance is the best expression of the difficulty of implementing a Badass Normal in a setting with supernatural creatures.

Hunters in White Wolf are literally normal dudes who get touched on the dick by magic beings and given magic powers ... so they can kill all those magic beings that mess with normal humans.

Except it appears to be more like...

"Get killed when they try to kill all those magic beings".

[Prak]

Or pal around with them.... there's one example of a time a GM needs to say no, when you ask if you can bring a hunter into a werewolf game...

That... ended quickly, and disappointingly.

[Maj]

This is the very crux of the Elennsar problem. You cannot replicate the events in stories like that without admitting that the terrifyingly lethal events shown in the world have little or no actual chance of taking the head off the protagonists. Because people roll 20s about 5% of the time, so if you were actually rolling fair dice to determine whether people like Xander lived or died, they would all die long before we got to the end of the show.

I get it.

Is the point of this thought to say, then, that Batman can't exist because he has Protagonist Immunity? 'Cause it sure seems to me like Protagonist Immunity is the norm for players in a large percentage of games, not something special that gets handed out to a specific player, or a specific type of character.

[Prak]

Yes, we all understand that Ironman has the unmentioned power "Main Character" in his comic, just as Batman has the same power in his comic (all 20 of them), and JLA titles, and all that.

That doesn't invalidate using them as examples. Hell, Batman's had his spine broken and been killed, and yes, because the writers decided it should happen, and yes, he got better, on both counts, but he's still at least a reasonably decent example of what players will accept from a Charles Atlas Superpower character. The concepts are still sound, even if some specific examples aren't, like Batman punching out Godzilla, or whatever.

Ironman should be a specific concept, the gadgeteer, who relies on his items, and on improving them to keep up with his challenges, or swap out to prepare for different challenges. Batman's got a bit of that too. But Captain America isn't a gadgeteer. He has his shield, even starting with it, but he doesn't get new shields as levels up (to my knowledge), nor does he throw his shield aside in preference of a +5 machine gun of nazi rape-age. And that should be a perfectly feasible concept (perhaps he's a shield-samurai, with lots of combat feats similar to Weapon of Righteous Destruction). Batman's primarily a martial artist, specifically an unarmed fighter, and uses very little magic. He's got his toys, including a few different suits, but primarily, he throws punches, kicks, and daggers/darts/shurikens/whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-liken-batarangs-to, and that needs to be a viable concept, and we can mine Batman's feats (as in impressive things he's done, not his +1 to batarang attacks and damage), to make fighters and monks viable from 1st to 20th level. Or tenth level, at least.

Maybe at 6th level you do have to pick up some kind of source, and Peter Parker picks up "Spider Magic" and gets webs, and strength and agility boosts, but Batman just picks up the "Gadgets" source, so he can make bombs and shit, and Captain AmericaKarrnath picks up, I don't know, "Patriotism" (Ok, probably Science or Arcane) and gets...Strength boosts... and long life.... and enemies.

Hmmm.... I'm seeing a theme here.

so it seems that in order for martial characters to be viable characters, but keep their Charles Atlas Superpower status, they literally need to be "As strong as ten men" or whatever.

Which really kind of sucks, since that's so one fucking dimensional

[Maxus]

I disagree.

Super strength is an awesome power which doesn't get enough mileage in comics.

If it's biological super strength, the character should also have super-toughness, by the demonstrable fact that Spiderman, whose strength is defined as upwards of ten tons, does NOT rip himself in half. In fact, he'd likely be able to take more abuse than he can deal by himself, considering he suffers no ill effects at all from the stresses his muscles put on his other tissues.

Super strength should also bypass the whole "Hardness" thing so you can, for example, rip a branch off a tree and then beat someone with it. Or, in a more modern setting, throw stop signs as a big metal frisbee or grab something metal and beat someone with it. The world is your weapon.

Super strength should also provide some kind of enhanced mobility. I mean, you weigh...200 pounds? 300 or 350 for the really big guys? That's not much weight when your limit in in tons. Moving your own weight around should be -easy-.

There a Hulk game (Ultimate Destruction, since you ask) that handles it well. The world -is- your playground, it'd never occurred to me before playing that the Hulk could run up the side of a building by jamming his feet into the wall, or that he can climb just fine thanks to there being few surfaces he can't ram a hand into to make a handhold. Not to mention being able to use trees, street lights, cars, various military-grade hardware to beat people with...

[Prak]

and we're back to talking about improvised weaponry.

Which I'm fine with, honestly. I mean, a fighter deciding he needs a bigger weapon to fight that cloud giant with and ripping a tree out of the ground is awesome, but in D&D it's not a lot.

However, your posts posits an interesting idea, give the martial characters super strength, and then give them everything that comic book physics imply, like super toughness, and the ability to wield the world, and then everything that makes sense as a logical real world consequence, like the ability to travel greater distances more easily (because the hulk sure ain't matching the Flash in a pure speed contest, but his legs can throw him further, thus lengthening his stride), and, yeah, the ability to climb any surface by jamming your hand in and making your own hand holds.

So, maybe... Fighters get a special ability around sixth level where they get a str and con point every level or two, and a virtual size increase (increasing space, reach, str, con, and speed, but keeping their dex and physical size the same, and not giving size mods to AC) every... what? 3 or four levels? And then certain effects trigger when their strength reaches certain numbers, like every 5 points gives them +10' speed, and allows them to flat out ignore 5 points of hardness

It's certainly not all that needs to be done, but it's something of a start, I suppose.

[Maxus]

However, your posts posits an interesting idea, give the martial characters super strength, and then give them everything that comic book physics imply, like super toughness, and the ability to wield the world, and then everything that makes sense as a logical real world consequence, like the ability to travel greater distances more easily (because the hulk sure ain't matching the Flash in a pure speed contest, but his legs can throw him further, thus lengthening his stride), and, yeah, the ability to climb any surface by jamming your hand in and making your own hand holds.

So, maybe... Fighters get a special ability around sixth level where they get a str and con point every level or two, and a virtual size increase (increasing space, reach, str, con, and speed, but keeping their dex and physical size the same, and not giving size mods to AC) every... what? 3 or four levels? And then certain effects trigger when their strength reaches certain numbers, like every 5 points gives them +10' speed, and allows them to flat out ignore 5 points of hardness

It's certainly not all that needs to be done, but it's something of a start, I suppose.

That's a lot more of what I was thinking than "Improvised weapons"

[Prak]

Super strength should also bypass the whole "Hardness" thing so you can, for example, rip a branch off a tree and then beat someone with it. Or, in a more modern setting, throw stop signs as a big metal frisbee or grab something metal and beat someone with it. The world is your weapon.

There a Hulk game (Ultimate Destruction, since you ask) that handles it well. The world -is- your playground, it'd never occurred to me before playing that the Hulk could run up the side of a building by jamming his feet into the wall, or that he can climb just fine thanks to there being few surfaces he can't ram a hand into to make a handhold. Not to mention being able to use trees, street lights, cars, various military-grade hardware to beat people with...

You still mentioned it though

Edit: I got an interesting idea from a Charles Atlas Superpower example on TvTropes, the Silver Horde from Discworld and their "economy of movement." Specifically, the Batman thing pointed out earlier, what if fighters actually had the ability to be where they wanted, or more to the point, anywhere but where their opponent's sword was. Yes, this would mean that fighters are incredibly difficult to take out in a straight fight (though given that it's D&D, it'd likely require a roll, or just be a massive AC boost), but could it work at high levels? Do we care if Fighters just have the ability "You can't hit me! (unless I don't know you're there)"?

[Username17]

Yes, we all understand that Ironman has the unmentioned power "Main Character" in his comic, just as Batman has the same power in his comic (all 20 of them), and JLA titles, and all that.

That doesn't invalidate using them as examples. Hell, Batman's had his spine broken and been killed, and yes, because the writers decided it should happen, and yes, he got better, on both counts, but he's still at least a reasonably decent example of what players will accept from a Charles Atlas Superpower character. The concepts are still sound, even if some specific examples aren't, like Batman punching out Godzilla, or whatever.

No.

Batman is a fucking terrible example, because he literally cannot compete or even survive in a Justice League adventure without invoking main character invulnerability. Constantly.

The fact that Batman "can" be shot and killed means that if you actually roll fair dice, he will be. Maybe not this adventure or the next, but soon. And if you bring in a Grayson Batman, then he will fucking die too!

When someone holds up Batman as an example they are pulling a fucking Elennsar. They want to succeed in spite of the odds. But if you roll dice in a fucking game, you don't beat the odds. Something that probably won't work out is asking for something unlikely to happen. If the odds, the real odds are against you, you are going to fucking lose.

If your enemy is throwing cars and you don't have super human toughness, then sooner or later your opponent is going to actually roll whatever fucking number he needs, and then your character is a grease stain. This turn of events is completely inevitable unless the author comes in with his magic word processor and prevents it deterministically. You cannot play a character who does not have the durability to survive the attacks your opponents are dishing out without your character failing to survive if you roll fair dice. Period.

And that is why Batman and Xander and Detective Donald Schanke, and any of those other characters are shitty RPG fodder. They are literally unplayable in an actual game, because the entire reason they are able to continue having adventures is that they are not subject to actual chance at any point.

Exception: you can totally play Batman as long as you stay firmly inside the Gotham Bubble, where all your enemies have attacks that are scaled to you and no one blows up city blocks or hurls things across state lines or does any of that crap. As long as you don't face any Justice League villains and constrain enemies to weaponry that will not in fact kill Batman through his body armor, you can go nuts. But that is of course an example of constraining a low level concept to a low level game.

-Username17

[Juton]

The thing about Batman is that he does operate at the Justice League level. So either Bizarro punches like a little girl or in the DC universe a human can, through training become tough/strong/cunning enough to throw-down with metahumans and win. What strains credulity is that when he's not with the Justice League, his mainly low-powered rogue's gallery can cause him trouble, although Poison Ivy and Killer Croc seem like they have legit superpowers.

The only way that a lot of heroes can work is if what's possible for comic book human far exceeds what's possible for a regular human.

[Prak]

This is bullshit, Frank, and you know it. By your reasoning, one cannot base a character or what it should do on Rincewind, because Terry won't let him die, Hell, by your reasoning we can't even base character abilities on Superman, because no way in shit is he ever going to get hurt.

And you fucking know what? When Batman fights heavies, he is a fucking heavy, go fucking read Batman vrs Aliens and come back when you've seen what the fuck he's written as doing when he's up against something outside the Gotham Bubble level.

Batman gets scaled to whatever he's supposed to be facing, and, sure, when it's Darkseid, he wins with crazy preparation, or being the Determinator, or whatever non-measurable thing you care to name, but he gets hit, and he gets hurt. Fuck, by your reasoning, we can't even base character abilities on the fucking Punisher, because in all his fights, he hasn't died yet.

So what are we supposed to do, Frank? Base character abilities solely on supporting characters and red shirts because they don't have plot armour?

[hogarth]

So what are we supposed to do, Frank? Base character abilities solely on supporting characters and red shirts because they don't have plot armour?

No. You grudgingly admit that games don't do a perfect job at simulating fiction (and vice versa), and you move on with your life.

[Prak]

So what are we supposed to do, Frank? Base character abilities solely on supporting characters and red shirts because they don't have plot armour?

No. You grudgingly admit that games don't do a perfect job at simulating fiction (and vice versa), and you move on with your life.

That was rather my point, I think...

[Red_Rob]

No, the point is that when Superman or the Punisher go up against an equal level opponent, that opponent can hit them a few times with their attacks without leading to an awkward silence and a "Death of Superman!" arc. When Batman goes up against a Superman-level opponent, that can't happen. So, all the attacks come close, or hit next to him and the shockwave knocks him off balance, or whatever. But he never actually takes the wrecking ball on the chin.
Try watching an episode of JLA and imagine Batman and Superman switch places. Could Batman survive any of the hits Supes takes?

Now, in D&D we have attack rolls that determine when things hit. Fine against Superman, not fine against Batman. Ergo Batman needs a power that reads "all attacks against you automagically miss, or scale down in damage via nearmissitude so you don't die".

[Sashi]

You fucking well can't make a character based on Rincewind because his singular power is "can't die as long as he doesn't know he can't die". Which, on a player level involves abusing that ability to the limit by setting up situations where the choice is between success and death to achieve impossible things. You're literally not playing the same game as anyone else at the table because numbers no longer matter and your only option is between failure, catastrophic failure, and infinity success which you achieve through a battle of wills with the DM to see how far over the line you can push things before he rules you've acted like you know you can't die ... and die.

And you totally can base a character on Superman because even if he's invincible "being hurt" is not the only way to fail and "eye lasers" is not the solution to every problem.

If you scale Batman up to be as strong as Superman when he's fighting Justice League baddies then he's superman level strong and is definitely NOT a "normal" anymore.

[Prak]

When Batman goes up against a Superman-level opponent, that can't happen. So, all the attacks come close, or hit next to him and the shockwave knocks him off balance, or whatever. But he never actually takes the wrecking ball on the chin.

Um, yes he does.

Try watching an episode of JLA and imagine Batman and Superman switch places. Could Batman survive any of the hits Supes takes?

Now, in D&D we have attack rolls that determine when things hit. Fine against Superman, not fine against Batman. Ergo Batman needs a power that reads "all attacks against you automagically miss, or scale down in damage via nearmissitude so you don't die".

Or... people just admit that batman is superhumanly strong and tough, maybe not to Superman or Wonder Woman's extent, but he regularly lives through blows and throws that would cripple lesser men.

If you scale Batman up to be as strong as Superman when he's fighting Justice League baddies then he's superman level strong and is definitely NOT a "normal" anymore.

*a-hem*

Yeah, but Batman as an example of the badass normal trope has so much traction that if the comics actually explicitly say he has powers, people will baw. Despite the fact that they've been implying he's super special for decades.

I mean, seriously, he has Superhuman intellect to begin with.
Then he uses this intellect to be a gadgeteer, put together crazy complicated schemes and gambits, that work nigh-flawlessly, and learn pretty much anything he needs to know in about a week.
He's also used this super-intellect to learn I don't know how many forms of martial arts, and several only tangentially related fields of science (biology, chemistry, physics, genetics, robotics, quantum physics, medicine, etc.)
But go further, and he's learned things that, in any other character, would be considered superpowers, like meditation and focus to the point that he can slow his heart to appear dead, he can do psychic battle with sorcerers and hypnotists, he's implanted hypnotic triggers in himself (meaning he's actually managed to HYPNOTIZE HIMSELF), Create a mental barrier against psychic influence and all kinds of other crazy crap.
His willpower is so strong, and he's so creative, that if he's ever given a power ring, he's pretty much the most dangerous being in existence.

Batman CLEARLY has superpowers. But they're not "Fly, laser beams, and super strength" powers.

emphasis added.

[Josh_Kablack]

I'd like to note that one of the advancement card powers available in the Forefront Champs game is missile deflection that only works when you are inside of the team Brick's reach. This allows the the little teenage teleporter girl to survive a howitzer hit with her basically normal human defenses. Because she has the power to have the brick made from living stone take the hit for her. I submit than in a JLA-scale adventure in RPG terms Batman has access to something similar.

Alternately, if you don't like having "the tough guy defends me" as a power he could have access to other RPG plot-immunity defenses like the JLA having a Group Edge that he, as a member can spend to survive attacks that in a realistic model should splatter even the toughest of normals. Batman is a comic-book character, and that in and of itself implies a particular sort of non-realistic model.

[ubernoob]

DIPLOMATIC ENCOUNTER

Prak, fuck off with the idea that Batman could take a single hit that Superman takes. Darkseid is just intimidating batman trying to call his bluff. He is DELIBERATELY pulling his punches so that he doesn't kill him. And yeah, Batman has armor and is stronger than a normal man (the fact that he breaks that pillar and still survives). But really, you're fucking 100% wrong. Batman absolutely cannot fight Darkseid. That was a diplomatic encounter that Batman rigged so that Darkseid could not kill him.

Darkseid's actual punches don't toss you a dozen feet into a pillar where you fall to the ground. They knock you through several blocks of concrete (see: any Darkseid vs Superman battle ever).

Batman has plot immunity. Get over it and use an actual example of something that can be translated into a game that uses fair dice.