A Slap In The Face - Unarmed Strikes

[Brobdingnagian]

I can't begin to tell you how dumb I thought this rule was when I first started playing. I put up with it without argument because I was new to the game. Now, I'm a little more experienced, I have a better grasp of balance, and I can honestly say, the unarmed strike rules suck beyond belief.

Are you going to honestly tell me that your guy who can swing a sword with the potential to inflict lethal harm four times in six seconds, but if he throws a punch he'll leave himself completely vulnerable to someone who can barely use his rusted old morningstar thus provoking an AoO? Ugh.

Fortunately, the fix for this is easy, and I've found that somehow, it doesn't even come up on a regular basis, let alone unbalance a campaign. I wonder why that is? Maybe because people would rather hack away with a greataxe than punch someone. Who knows?

Anyway, it's simple. Unarmed strikes deal slam damage appropriate for a creature your size (d3 for Small, d4 for Medium, d6 for Large, etc). Unarmed strikes only deal non-lethal damage, unless you are making a coup-de-grace (ie: snapping someone's neck or ramming your fingers in the Beholder's eye... maybe stomping on an Ogre's throat or beating an Athach with his severely impossible severed third arm, whatever). You do not take a -4 penalty for attacking unarmed; it's certainly easier to punch someone properly than to knife-fight, and everyone can use a dagger. Finally, if you have a BAB of +1 or more (martial characters at first level, everyone else at second), you do not provoke an AoO for attacking unarmed. Because, you know, you know how to fight and you're not a freakin' moron.

Boy, that was hard.

[User3]

I just give any class with all martial weapon profs a free quasi Improved Unarmed Strike.

I still make them take the actual feat if they want to take any feat or prc that has Imp Strike as a prereq, but I figure, if they know how to use like, billion different weapons, somwhere in there they also learned how to throw a decent punch at some point.

[Brobdingnagian]

Balls to "actual" feats. We use RoW feats here.

Hmm...

Unarmed Combat Training (Combat)
You stab things in the face... with your hands.
Benefit: You are allowed to inflict lethal damage with unarmed strikes. You may use unarmed strikes to inflict piercing or slashing damage, at your option.
+1: The critical threat range for your unarmed strike is doubled. You do 3x damage on a successful critical hit with an unarmed strike.
+6: Stunning Blow - Any time you successfully hit with an unarmed strike, your opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Str Mod) or be stunned for a number of rounds equal to the amount they failed their save by. Creatures with immunity to critical hits are immune to Stunning Blow.
+11: Nerve Strike - Any time you successfully hit with an unarmed strike, your opponent must make a Reflex save (DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Str Mod) or be knocked unconscious for a number of hours equal to the amount they failed their save by. Check for Nerve Strike before Stunning Blow. Creatures immune to critical hits or precision damage are immune to Nerve Strike.
+16: Lethal Jab - Any time you successfully hit with an unarmed strike, your opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + Str Mod) or be killed. Check for Lethal Jab before Nerve Strike. Undead, contructs, plants, and oozes are immune to Lethal Jab.

[the_taken]

I figured one level of the Special-K Monk would give you the respectable slam attack that would function just fine.

1d8 slam attack plus a BAB? Sure. It's like having a simple weapon.

[Brobdingnagian]

Yeah, but then you're burning a level for something you don't need. A Fighter should be able to punch stuff without leaving himself open to the commoner's morningstar.

[Endovior]

Yeah, but you also get a fighting style, which works just as well for a Fighter as it does for a Monk.

[Digestor]

^ That's not really the point though, you shouldnt' have to multi-class to a class outside of 'fighter' to learn how to throw your fist at something's face.

Like, most 8 year olds know that.

[Judging__Eagle]

Also, people who play a fghter don't want to delay their feat or class ability progression.

Jumping through the RoW fighter to get lvl 7 Fighter is hawt shit; especially when you've got like 2+ spell casters in your group who will help you make magical gear.

The Fighter has the higher "caster levels", they have the spells; the person who wants the item provides the XP, the whole group has the effects of cherry-picking their magic items for reduced gp costs before they've got Wish economy access. Once they do, you can make items higher than 15,000 gp to trade for other items or to have people sell you souls.

[Cielingcat]

Plus, the Fighter can, as it stands, only get straight pluses on his weapons, since he lacks the spell requirements.

[Crissa]

Why are they spell requirements? Shouldn't that make it easier, not negate impossibility?

How about a Craft or Knowlege roll?

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

Stuff like Fireball for a Flaming weapon. I was pointing out another thing that a Wizard can help with.

[Judging__Eagle]

1175994066[/unixtime]]Plus, the Fighter can, as it stands, only get straight pluses on his weapons, since he lacks the spell requirements.

Yup, due to being 3 caster levels higher than their level.

Although, I'm not really sure if caster level boosting via an number of tricks really works for crafting.

Why are they spell requirements? Shouldn't that make it easier, not negate impossibility?

In a group you can have the fighter make stuff like Crystal Balls and Flying Carpets; or even magic wands. Yeah, the fighter who whittles girallon femurs and wyvern stingers into batons can get a wizard to fill them up with magic.

Normally Forge Lore only allows the Fighter to make +3 armours and +3 weapons at lvl 7. The armour is okay, but the weapon is kickass; +3 to hit and up to +9 damage (the hit really, it translates into potential damage via Power Attack really)

While a normal wizard/cleric would have to be lvl 9.

Stuff like Fireball for a Flaming weapon. I was pointing out another thing that a Wizard can help with.

Yup, which works very swimmingly if you have a group that...works like a group. Yes, it's apparently a novelty among some gaming groups.

The fighter's got Forge Lore, the casters learn, buy, beg, borrow, steal the spells that are needed to creat certain items and while the group can't make Golems or Magical Architecture; almost anything else is fair game. Weapons, armour, wands, staffs, wonderous items, potions; heck the Fighter can even scribe scrolls for the cleric or Sorcerer if the group really needs that.



Seriously, our gaming group almost always comes together almost instinctivly whenever we make characters for a new game. No matter the system, campaign or setting.

[Prak]

wait, how does a fighter scribe scrolls?

[Crissa]

How does the sorceror or warlock help the fighter fill the sticks with magic?

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

how does polar bear know what apples is?

[erik]

1175983219[/unixtime]]^ That's not really the point though, you shouldnt' have to multi-class to a class outside of 'fighter' to learn how to throw your fist at something's face.

Like, most 8 year olds know that.

Ehhh, there is a rather vast difference between knowing how to throw a punch, and knowing how to throw a punch without losing your fingers to some guy waving a sword at you. More than minimal martial training is required for the latter.

Improved Unarmed Strike isn't just knowing how to throw a punch effectively, it's knowing how to avoid having your arm meet a sword in the process. Not being able to parry or block without being hurt makes it much much harder to close in to land that punch.

Furthermore, I'd imagine most people, especially 8 year old people, don't even know how to throw a punch properly for more speed and damage. They probably just swing wildly if they haven't had any training.

Really, almost nobody tries to get in a fist fight with somebody who has a real weapon. Trading punches for slashes is a pretty bad idea unless you're a friggin kung fu master and they're mooks. You try to either close and grapple so that their weapon is useless or else find something to put in your hands to make it a fair fight.


So handing out improved unarmed strike for free (or almost free) does seem more than a little weird. At the very least it should be on par with martial weapon proficiency, which admittedly many classes do give out for free. So I'd be content with just calling it a martial weapon proficiency and giving it out for free to classes which grant all MWPs.

I have no problem with granting 1-up on the die type for damage from unarmed strikes. It's just not a big deal.


Now is the intent of this house rule that everything gets slam attacks if it has any BAB to speak of- Like a T-Rex kicking stuff around? I actually have no problem with big critters being able to slam things if desired, just asking.

[Endovior]

clikml is, of course, completely right. I have some martial arts training, and let me tell you: although it IS possible to fight an armed person while you yourself are unarmed, it is really quite difficult. If the other guy has a sword, and he knows you are there (no Surprise), and is ready (Initiative), then if you try to run up and hit him, he'll hit you first (Attack of Opportunity). This is largely because of reach. Not D&D reach (hitting a different 5-foot square with a pike), but actual reach (having a tool that extends the length of your arm, allowing you to strike at a greater distance). D&D isn't complicated enough to detail all the ways in which you really want a sword to fight a guy who also has a sword... but it does abstract this principle as an 'attack of opportunity' which you 'provoke' by 'being a dumbass' and 'forgetting your weapon'. And yes, if you have any weapon at all, even if it's just a short little dagger, you won't provoke an attack of opportunity, because you can block with it and stuff while closing, and then get inside his reach, gaining the advantage. Seriously, even among those who study unarmed combat, the preferred way of fighting a guy with a sword is 'with another sword'. Taking on an armed man while unarmed is fundamentally a bad idea, and although you might manage to pull it off if you're quite skilled or he's not, it's better not to take the chance.

[Judging__Eagle]

1176015520[/unixtime]]wait, how does a fighter scribe scrolls?

The RoW fighter can craft magical equipment. Level 7 gives them Forge Lore, which is normally to make sure that Redgar gets level appropriate gear, but he could always work with Mialee "behind the scenes" to make him a "better greatsword" and then he can help her in the making of "pearls of power".


One of the current DMG rules for crafting magical equipment is that people who collectiely have all of the comonents to craft a magic item can work together to do so.

So, one person, who has the crafting feat; can work with other people; that have either: 1) the caster levels and/or 2) the spells needed to make the item.

So, the fighter can take dictation from the cleric, but they'll both have to be working together during the time period.

Hmm, that seems a bit off. Scrolls aren't really 'gear'; they're spell slots you got saved for a rainy day really. Ah whatever.

As for the casters putting magic (say... Girallon's Blessing) into the wand you carved from a Girallon's Femur; it's easy.

The fighter does the cleaning, cutting, carving, engraving and inlaying of the bone while the caster provides the spells needed.

Leading to a new dynamic in item creation if one uses the RoW rules:

"Fighter make itams, Caster fill with spell(s)"


Book of gears will change this, but I don't know by how much.

[tzor]

The simple answer is yes it makes perfect sense. But I think the premise is flawed. Let's look at the premise from the rules and then from how those rules would appear to the casual observer.

Heman, a high level fighter decides for reasons that are not important at the time to walk up to joe warrior and punch him in the nose. Joe warrior is currently wielding his faithful crudgel. Joe warrior is therefore in a position to "threaten" Heman and gets an attack. Joe warrior has a horrid BAB and only by the grace of the DM did he get a chance to hit. He thus hits doing a small amount of damage which is deducted against Heman's very large HP pool. Ironically Heman was only 5' away from joe warrior and continues to make a full attack knocking poor joe warrior out with 0 HP.

Heman, a high level fighter has decided that diplomacy is for others and proceeds to calmly walk up to the idiot guard and take him out. While lining up the perfect shot the idiot guard swings his club and the blow glances off of heman's shoulder. He then proceeds to punch the guard in the stomach and finishes him off with a solid blow to the chin, while complaining, "Hey you just bruised me."

The point is just because you have drawn a single AOO does not mean you're toast, especially for fighters with high HP and multiple attacks because unless you are dealing with special opponents most will only get 1 AOO per round as the feat is not a common one to throw on opponents.

[Judging__Eagle]

1176051878[/unixtime]]

The point is just because you have drawn a single AOO does not mean you're toast, especially for fighters with high HP and multiple attacks because unless you are dealing with special opponents most will only get 1 AOO per round as the feat is not a common one to throw on opponents.

My TWFing, Blitzarian did just that.

Provoked so many AoOs that the rest of the party could either walk past stuff with impunity.

Since those AoOs resulted in hot shit damage; they didn't mind burning an action in having someone heal me (1-4 rogues, 0-2 Druids, 0-2 Clerics; all with wands of CLW and lesser vigour; some with infinite charge ones even).

Too bad that game stopped though.

Now, I'll have to get my Barbarian ass-kicking jones off by making NPC barbarians.

Drow-slave Deep Dwarf barbarians; that'll work.

[Brobdingnagian]

You suck.

[Digestor]

1176039971[/unixtime]]

1175983219[/unixtime]]^ That's not really the point though, you shouldnt' have to multi-class to a class outside of 'fighter' to learn how to throw your fist at something's face.

Like, most 8 year olds know that.

Ehhh, there is a rather vast difference between knowing how to throw a punch, and knowing how to throw a punch without losing your fingers to some guy waving a sword at you. More than minimal martial training is required for the latter.

Improved Unarmed Strike isn't just knowing how to throw a punch effectively, it's knowing how to avoid having your arm meet a sword in the process. Not being able to parry or block without being hurt makes it much much harder to close in to land that punch.

Never said anything to the contrary - doesnt' change the fact that even themost seasoned of sword-master will know how to punch someone, because in a sword fight (in reality) at one point or another your sword is going to be locked or unavailable or somehow unusable and you're just going to have to cold-clock that drunk bastard/goblin one.

Furthermore, I'd imagine most people, especially 8 year old people, don't even know how to throw a punch properly for more speed and damage. They probably just swing wildly if they haven't had any training.

Don't let jokes get in the way of the real point, they're only there for..... fun.

Really, almost nobody tries to get in a fist fight with somebody who has a real weapon. Trading punches for slashes is a pretty bad idea unless you're a friggin kung fu master and they're mooks. You try to either close and grapple so that their weapon is useless or else find something to put in your hands to make it a fair fight.

But when you cant and your' forced to fight with your fists, a person who's slashed apart a demon or two should know how to be able to throw his fist and NOT get an AoO handed to him (several with some enemies).

So handing out improved unarmed strike for free (or almost free) does seem more than a little weird. At the very least it should be on par with martial weapon proficiency, which admittedly many classes do give out for free. So I'd be content with just calling it a martial weapon proficiency and giving it out for free to classes which grant all MWPs.

Yes. Though I think Rogues should get no AoO when fighting as well, I'm sure they've been in a situation of fisticuffs or 8 considering their life style.

I do however understand why a wizard/cleric would have difficult boxing.

[Brobdingnagian]

I have difficulty understanding why Clerics know how to wear full armour and get 3/4 BAB, but that's a different discussion entirely.

[User3]

1176065407[/unixtime]]I have difficulty understanding why Clerics know how to wear full armour and get 3/4 BAB, but that's a different discussion entirely.

Once upon a time I think it was ether to make up for their lack of Direct Damage spells, and that arcane magic was, in general, just plain better and such. "Sorry Holy Bob, you can't cast fireballs turn invisible or teleport like Arcane Joe, but here's a shield, platemail and a mace so you can bash away at the nonbelievers." Or because they were intended to be the 'holy warrior' class before Pallies were put in.

Course now DD spells are worthless compared to the almighty save-or-dies (which the cleric does have plenty of) and the power difference between arcane and divine is so tiny that it takes quantum mathematics to actually express such a minuscule amount; and clerics can buff themselves up to where they are the best melee class in the game so it all seems a bit silly.

[Digestor]

'cause it would make fighter seven more obsolete?