The Shadowrun Situation

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:33 am

I do believe background count is among the most ignored rules there is - especially with regards to NPCs.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:10 pm

hermit wrote:I am actually amazed he even found Wirtz.

That's the incongruity to me, since (as an American) I have no idea who the hell Wirtz (Wirths?) was. I would have assumed that the effort required to find Wirtz out as a historical figure would have also led to information on his role with respect to Auschwitz.

Also, a fine teehee for mission finale cadre of mages and spirits in a Background Count 4 area.

Hieronymous Rex · Post by **Hieronymous Rex** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:19 pm

hermit wrote: Now, this may be different in America, but that is middle school knowledge here.

It's middle school knowledge in America, too. (as a side note, where is "here" for you? "The skull throne"?

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:38 pm

I believe Here for him.. is the education system that brought us Mengele in the first place

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:30 pm

I'm going to dig out the 'Designation' mess here and point something out.
Until now, magic and tech in SR didn't mix. You couldn't use tech with magic, and magic with tech, except for a few minor tricks, like the Aura Camera, or those awakened plants making up a Barrier.
Designate breaks that barrier and freely interacts with advanced tech - different signals, encryption and targeting software of any system, be it artillery, or fighter-bomber...
What stops the creators of the spell from making a 'Hack' spell? They've already managed to break the barrier.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:18 pm

Having a 'Hack' spell would really hurt the setting, but it's not the worst idea they could come up with. Letting an AI learn to cast magic would destroy the setting, I hope by saying it here and now that means they can't use it.

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:55 pm

mean_liar wrote:
hermit wrote:I am actually amazed he even found Wirtz.
That's the incongruity to me, since (as an American) I have no idea who the hell Wirtz (Wirths?) was. I would have assumed that the effort required to find Wirtz out as a historical figure would have also led to information on his role with respect to Auschwitz.

It took me a few minutes of searching in google to find usable detail on him. So I too have no idea how someone could know about him and not know what he did and didn't do.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:22 am

i still don't have a reaction regarding the use of the designate spell as a means of making oneself immune to guided weapons O.o

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:06 am

I didn't get a reaction to the Maxwell's demon post either.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:25 am

Don't expect a response. Slow pretty much did about as much damage as you're going to see. People's bullshit filters can only take so much before the outrage sensors close down and they retreat to their own ingrained sensibilities.

The vitriol got hot, the author got defensive and the battle line got shifted to the greater CGL vs. Them discussion which most people have already entrenched themselves on. That's a fight CGL has been working at for a long time and they can hold out as long as they have that license to print money by putting "Shadowrun" on whatever they feel like.

Personally I think Designate is far and away worse than Slow. Because while Slow has a confusing a painfully explained bit about orientation to a gaiasphere, the author came out to clarify that Designate negotiates encryption to "fool" a Pilot or System. Short of hacking spells that puts them on a level of intelligence and magical susceptibility they did not previously have.

I'd love to see that argued on the official forums, with a conversation involving Jason Hardy on why he wants to take the game mechanics in that direction and bridge that particular gap. Even an interview would do, or a static write up where he explains his reasoning. But that isn't going to happen because CGL doesn't need to address shit to carry on working, and for my money I don't think Jason CAN have that conversation.

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:39 am

The only writer I can think of who could have that was Frank. He seemed to grasp the 2nd and 3rd order effects of the rules much better then anyone else.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:53 am

I don't like to disparage a guy, but Jason Hardy doesn't know the rules. He tried answering a rule question, once, and he failed hard. Really really hard. It wasn't even a difficult question. There was no time limit involved. He could have asked someone who did learn the rules for help, but he didn't.

Not to say I'm much better. I would easily say Frank's better at rules design than I am. I mean, considering some of my rules fuck-ups in the past. There were some whoppers.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:27 am

Ancient History wrote:I don't like to disparage a guy, but Jason Hardy doesn't know the rules. He tried answering a rule question, once, and he failed hard. Really really hard. It wasn't even a difficult question. There was no time limit involved. He could have asked someone who did learn the rules for help, but he didn't.

Not to say I'm much better. I would easily say Frank's better at rules design than I am. I mean, considering some of my rules fuck-ups in the past. There were some whoppers.

Yeah, but at least your rules fuck ups are fun

Well, some of them.

Anyway, I just posted this over on DS if anyone is interested:

Fan letter to CGL

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... &p=1025264

Everyone feel free to check it out if you're so inclined. I don't feel so bad about being home alone right now if AH is posting at this hour.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:58 am

As for the rules thing, CGL obviously ignores them. And that's bad. They do need someone like Frank. To be honest, I'm not always good with rules, but i have my moments. I know the guy who was behind most of the numbers involved in a Polish game Wolsung, and he's really good. Thanks to his support, the game has good working and fun-supporting rules.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:00 pm

I dunno I'm still bitter about Karma Gen and Zhe Ghouls!

But at least we got an unofficial errata for Karma Gen from AH.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:02 pm

Kot wrote:I'm going to dig out the 'Designation' mess here and point something out.
Until now, magic and tech in SR didn't mix. You couldn't use tech with magic, and magic with tech, except for a few minor tricks, like the Aura Camera, or those awakened plants making up a Barrier.
Designate breaks that barrier and freely interacts with advanced tech - different signals, encryption and targeting software of any system, be it artillery, or fighter-bomber...
What stops the creators of the spell from making a 'Hack' spell? They've already managed to break the barrier.

Magic and tech should mix, and if they weren't supposed to then Object Resistance and the delineated Limits of Magic would mention something.

The only problem with Designate is that its intelligent, not that it mixes tech and magic.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:10 pm

No, it's not intelligent. You can't talk to it, it can't act on it's own. It's a magical, always working hack program.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:50 pm

Kot wrote:No, it's not intelligent. You can't talk to it, it can't act on it's own. It's a magical, always working hack program.

But it's functionally intelligent, because it can break encryption, and anywhere else you need a hacker and a slew of actions to do that.

How long would it take a hacker or techno to find the wireless of the weapon, decrypt it, exploit it and send it the new information? How difficult would that be?

Most of all, WHY MAKE A SPELL THAT DOES THAT?!?

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:23 pm

Breaking encryption doesn't make it intelligent. It just makes it mimic decryption programs. It just makes it a magic-to-technology interfaced tool for mages. And that' wrong enough.
And as for why, there's a thing most people who make these up say:
"It seemed like a good idea at the time."

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:15 pm

My beef, and why I say it has functional intelligence, is that the spell has to basically do math in order to decrypt. It handles a matrix action without the use of a program.

Can it do that without Exploiting the node first? Or does it do that, instantly getting the appropriate permission level as well?

I guess we're really just arguing about the size of the hole that sunk the Titanic here, but it still pisses me off how off the wall that spell is.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:47 pm

It doesn't have any intelligence. You're trying to explain something, that is wrong - the designator uses a pulse-code. Which the spellcaster has to know, and use to designate the target for his own artillery/airforce.
He cannot know the enemy code, unless he managed to obtain it. And memorizing these would be a serious problem.
I think whoever made that spell up, didn't think, or know about the code.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:02 pm

Kot wrote:It doesn't have any intelligence. You're trying to explain something, that is wrong - the designator uses a pulse-code. Which the spellcaster has to know, and use to designate the target for his own artillery/airforce.

Actually no. The caster doesn't need to know anything and doesn't need to have line of effect to the artillery launcher. He just marks the target and all launchers automatically interpret that as a correct designation. This was confirmed by the author of the spell. And that is why people are pissed off. Because Shadowrun magic can't do that.

-Username17

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:58 pm

Wait, so it doesn't fake one pulse-code, it makes all launchers see one thing as something different- one launcher sees it as, for example, code 3X00S, while a different artillery piece sees the exact same thing as DANGER?

Isn't that like creating an illusion that you appear as everyone's individual best friend with their voice, style of talking and so on? Or having a spell that makes whatever signal you send appear to be the correct password to the computer you are trying to hack?

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:59 pm

Yes. Which is why it pisses off just about everoyne but CGL's shills.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:27 pm

Yeah. It is a physical illusion that creates potentially different digital images to different machines that you don't necessarily see or even know about. It's a no-no on many levels.

But beyond that, the thing you're supposed to use it for could be done with a 500¥ designator pen. So it's worthless for its intended purpose, but opens up many many cans of worms. What with it being a spell that creates digital information that is capable of bypassing encryption that the caster is completely unaware of and being a physical illusion that is perceived differently by different observers despite that not being how physical illusions normally work.

-Username17