The Official "4e Critique and Rebuttal" Thread

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LR
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Post by LR »

lighttigersoul wrote:Oh, so the players need to know it's possible for THEM to do it. It can't just be some fantastic happening that's hard to explain? The tower is a mental construct, it exists in your head. You don't need numbers to explain why it happened, it's magic.
Image
This is seriously your argument? I try not to use image macros but it's a perfect fucking match.
Novembermike wrote:You know, I've tried to be polite but Roy seems like an insufferable prick.
Ignore him?
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Post by FatR »

Novembermike wrote: You actually demonstrated one of the weaknesses of D&D in general, which is that being a badass keeps anyone from killing you. There are numerous instances of powerful people being killed by relatively weak unknowns simply because physics works and a knife in the gut will kill you no matter how tough you are or if it was a child wielding it.
It won't, if you are Wolverine or Dante. And there aren't even particularly high-tier characters. And your belowed physics say that any character who systematically fights giants and the like in melee combat must be just as tough as them, or even tougher. (Even if he murders such foes with superspeed, by the way.) And you failing to realize that if funny.
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Post by Halloween Jack »

Novembermike wrote: You actually demonstrated one of the weaknesses of D&D in general, which is that being a badass keeps anyone from killing you. There are numerous instances of powerful people being killed by relatively weak unknowns simply because physics works and a knife in the gut will kill you no matter how tough you are or if it was a child wielding it.
D&D ain't a physics engine. Never has been, never will be, shouldn't be. But there' s Rolemaster and EABA and a bunch of games that attempt that if you really really want it.
Kaelik wrote:First, the less important flying monster issue:

No it`s not a problem in 3e, because you have 1) spells like fly, airwalk, overland flight 2) spells like wingbind 3) grappling 4) the ability to have or make cover, stoneshape, windwall, control winds, wall of x, or even just carving a hole in the ground and jumping in to tunnel.
1. Wizards get nice things!
2. Which sourcebook is that in?
3. The 3e grappling rules have never been a good answer to any problem.
4. See, my 4e answer to the Harpy Bomb Squad Problem is to go under the nearest canopy/building/rock outcropping/forest and if they want to kill me so bad they can follow me to my turf. Or we can play out a probably boring siege situation.

But if the Pcs have no idea what the rules are for making stone towers, they can`t respond sensibly.
Are you serious? I've run Call of Cthulhu games in haunted houses and caves, and there are no home-building or geophysics rules in that system. You seriously need a system as complex as Dwarf Fortress in order for your players to have verisimilitude?

There's a Stone Shape spell for making magic instant stone towers, sure. But what if your PCs go adventuring in the lizardmen-ruled watershed? There are no rules for floodlands! Not even a Swamp Shape spell! What if the PCs decide to be insufferable [EDITED] and plant a rice paddy or harvest papyrus instead of actually going on an adventure? There's no rules for that! It's not like they can make a skill check to know things about swampland or anything! :wuh:
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Post by Roy »

Knowledge: Nature. Oh snap!
Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?
Juton wrote:Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.
Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
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Post by tzor »

FatR wrote:
Novembermike wrote: You actually demonstrated one of the weaknesses of D&D in general, which is that being a badass keeps anyone from killing you. There are numerous instances of powerful people being killed by relatively weak unknowns simply because physics works and a knife in the gut will kill you no matter how tough you are or if it was a child wielding it.
It won't, if you are Wolverine or Dante. And there aren't even particularly high-tier characters. And your belowed physics say that any character who systematically fights giants and the like in melee combat must be just as tough as them, or even tougher. (Even if he murders such foes with superspeed, by the way.) And you failing to realize that if funny.
Or George Washington. It's rare for anyone in the real world to have high Hit Points, but man did the General have it in spades; even at relatively loe level.
George Washington in the French and Indian War wrote:Washington was one of the few of Braddock's aides to emerge relatively unscathed, despite being significantly involved in the fighting. He had two horses shot out from under him, and four bullets pierced his coat. He sustained no injuries and showed coolness under fire.
He really could have used comprehend languages, the French screwed him.
The surrender document that Washington signed prevented his men from returning to the Ohio Country for one year, and included an admission that Jumonville had been "assassinated". (The document was written in French, which Washington could not read, and may have been poorly translated for him.) Because the French claimed that Jumonville's party had been on a diplomatic (rather than military) mission, the "Jumonville affair" became an international incident, and the military escalation that followed blossomed into the global Seven Years' War.
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Post by LR »

Halloween Jack wrote:There's a Stone Shape spell for making magic instant stone towers, sure. But what if your PCs go adventuring in the lizardmen-ruled watershed? There are no rules for floodlands! Not even a Swamp Shape spell! What if the PCs decide to be insufferable [EDITED] and plant a rice paddy or harvest papyrus instead of actually going on an adventure? There's no rules for that! It's not like they can make a skill check to know things about swampland or anything! :wuh:
They roll profession checks until they bored or their fields get attacked by a Manticore. Bonus Option: I crack open the DMG2, try to run the business rules, remember that they have some really weird rules for capital, and use the Tomes rules instead.
Last edited by LR on Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Halloween Jack »

Roy wrote:Knowledge: Nature. Oh snap!
Wait, you mean there are skills to know things about things?

So if I could roll Nature to know things about a swamp, I could roll Arcana or Dungeoneering to know things about a magically spontaneously generated physics-violating obsidian tower full of monsters?

So Kaelik's original argument about needing detailed rules for magic rock construction was stupid?

Thanks, good to know!
Roy wrote: Fail is internet based, not MMO based.
No see what he's getting at is that your attemps at discussion are "lowest common denominator Internet meme pop culture based" instead of "not a fucking idiot based."
Hi Welcome

You are dismissed by such memes as you are unworthy of intelligent thought.
You're flat out admitting that you're being deliberately stupid?
I'm better at RPGs, and your favorite grind games than you'll ever be. Despite having not played said grind games very long.
You're good at games you despise? You practice games you despise?
Last edited by Halloween Jack on Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Darwinism »

The best part about Roy is his unrelenting bile actually helps people see how irrational hatred for a book is silly.

Oh and he's ended up supporting arguments for 4E really well just because of contrast. That's fun too.
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Post by MadScientistWorking »

Halloween Jack wrote:
Roy wrote:Knowledge: Nature. Oh snap!
Wait, you mean there are skills to know things about things?

So if I could roll Nature to know things about a swamp, I could roll Arcana or Dungeoneering to know things about a magically spontaneously generated physics-violating obsidian tower full of monsters?

So Kaelik's original argument about needing detailed rules for magic rock construction was stupid?

Thanks, good to know!
I think Kaelik's original argument was that there were no rules for the magic rock structure construction. In that how would the magic rock would work with X,Y, and Z scenarios. What happens when the magic rock gets sold? What happens when you go inside of the structure? This I have no problem with because you have a set amount of rules that would dictate what would occur and the basis of different encounters. The problem I would have is expecting the game engine itself to generate those rules. The modules themselves should have rules and background depending on the scenario but not the actual engine.
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Post by LR »

Halloween Jack wrote:
Roy wrote:Knowledge: Nature. Oh snap!
Wait, you mean there are skills to know things about things?

So if I could roll Nature to know things about a swamp, I could roll Arcana or Dungeoneering to know things about a magically spontaneously generated physics-violating obsidian tower full of monsters?

So Kaelik's original argument about needing detailed rules for magic rock construction was stupid?

Thanks, good to know!
Except that when the players roll Arcana, it doesn't have any rules to reference, because magical obsidian towers aren't real things. The DM can go on and on about the arcane rituals required to make an obsidian tower, but until that ritual exists as a thing that PCs can find and use, it's nothing but meaningless and insulting fluff.
Last edited by LR on Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by FatR »

There is another benefit to rules that actually interface with the world, instead of requiring the GM to abstract or handwave everything beyond tactical combat between PCs and monsters. Good rules, that actually allow people to do interesting shit, provide the GM with plot hooks and ideas. And PCs with something they know they can do that will have a predictable, meaningful effect, therefore encouraging them to take the initiative (players are already prone enough to decision paralysis, why should we knock out even these crutches from under them?).
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Post by DragonChild »

Novembermike wrote:You know, I've tried to be polite but Roy seems like an insufferable prick.
We here on the den don't really like him much either. We just don't believe in banning people because we don't like them. Literally the only person that's ever been banned from here (as far as I know) was spamming multiple threads with underage dismemberment porn.

In short, don't hold Roy against us, and I won't hold the fact that Darwinism has LITERALLY not read posts he's responded to against the rest of you. :p
Last edited by DragonChild on Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JigokuBosatsu »

"Have him call Lon Chaney a cocksucker."
Omegonthesane wrote:a glass armonica which causes a target city to have horrific nightmares that prevent sleep
JigokuBosatsu wrote:so a regular glass armonica?
You can buy my books, yes you can. Out of print and retired, sorry.
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Post by Roy »

Halloween Jack wrote:
Roy wrote:Knowledge: Nature. Oh snap!
Wait, you mean there are skills to know things about things?

So if I could roll Nature to know things about a swamp, I could roll Arcana or Dungeoneering to know things about a magically spontaneously generated physics-violating obsidian tower full of monsters?

So Kaelik's original argument about needing detailed rules for magic rock construction was stupid?

Thanks, good to know!
No, Kaelik was exactly right.
No see what he's getting at is that your attemps at discussion are "lowest common denominator Internet meme pop culture based" instead of "not a fucking idiot based."
You're flat out admitting that you're being deliberately stupid?
I'm flat out admitting I am dismissing idiots with the minimum possible effort. To be stupid, I would have to do things like be persistently wrong, compulsively lie, defend people's right to not do the job they are paid to do, make MMO style claims and then deny that means the subject I am referring to is MMO like, and straw man constantly. For example, if I were defending 4th edition by lying constantly about it, claiming it's ok the designers wrote terrible rules because the DM can just make stuff up, talk about how monsters don't exist out of combat so what they do when they aren't being slowly ground down by the PCs doesn't matter, and present false arguments such as that counter to Knowledge: Nature, I'd be stupid. But see, I am not doing any of those things.

The fuckwit squad however is.
I'm better at RPGs, and your favorite grind games than you'll ever be. Despite having not played said grind games very long.
You're good at games you despise? You practice games you despise?
It takes no great degree of skill to be good at such games. Merely knowing and understanding math is sufficient. Now admittedly, grasp of basic mathematics is a rather rare skill. See Skill Challenges (any version, or just the fact there are so many versions, and they all fail) for examples. Even so, being good at grind games is simply a matter of finding the most efficient way to grind.

In 4.Fail, that means finding a way to get the Sand Veil ability. Then you enter the field, a sandstorm rages, and all minions auto pop. Great XP to be farmed there.
Last edited by Roy on Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?
Juton wrote:Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.
Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
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Post by MadScientistWorking »

LR wrote:
Halloween Jack wrote:
Roy wrote:Knowledge: Nature. Oh snap!
Wait, you mean there are skills to know things about things?

So if I could roll Nature to know things about a swamp, I could roll Arcana or Dungeoneering to know things about a magically spontaneously generated physics-violating obsidian tower full of monsters?

So Kaelik's original argument about needing detailed rules for magic rock construction was stupid?

Thanks, good to know!
Except that when the players roll Arcana, it doesn't have any rules to reference, because magical obsidian towers aren't real things. The DM can go on and on about the arcane rituals required to make an obsidian tower, but until that ritual exists as a thing that PCs can find and use, it's nothing but meaningless and insulting fluff.
So every single scenario that you can come up with is useless and meaningless if there isn't a rule mechanic for it?
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Post by Roy »

DragonChild wrote:
Novembermike wrote:You know, I've tried to be polite but Roy seems like an insufferable prick.
We here on the den don't really like him much either. We just don't believe in banning people because they don't like him. Literally the only people that's ever been banned from here (as far as I know) was spamming multiple threads with underage dismemberment porn.

In short, don't hold Roy against us, and I won't hold the fact that Darwinism has LITERALLY not read posts he's responded to against the rest of you. :p
High school drama, not a high school popularity contest. Most people around here aren't liked. So fucking what. This isn't some Paizil hugbox, so if someone tells you to suck a barrel of cocks, you simply tell them to do it first and go about your day unfazed.

Perhaps when you grow up Wyrmling, you will understand.
Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?
Juton wrote:Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.
Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
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Post by talozin »

Halloween Jack wrote:Are you serious? I've run Call of Cthulhu games in haunted houses and caves, and there are no home-building or geophysics rules in that system. You seriously need a system as complex as Dwarf Fortress in order for your players to have verisimilitude?
There is already an extensive body of work on how to build stone towers without magic. So, if your setting doesn't support building stone towers by magic, the players already know what's involved in building one.

But the whole point of magic is that it does not follow the rules of the reality we live in. So if a guy waves his hands and conjures a stone tower, they can't use what's involved in building one in reality as a measuring stick.

If a stone tower goes up overnight in D&D, you can be fairly confident that somewhere around is a guy who's capable of casting Wall of Stone, and probably casting it quite a few times if the tower is of any size. If it goes up overnight in Ars Magica, you can be pretty sure that there's a serious Creo Terram dude in the background. So if a stone tower springs up and you go inside and fight a guy who casts no spells higher than 3rd level, players are -- or should be -- asking questions like, "Wait, where did this tower come from? Was that guy just bait, and his master's watching to see how tough we are? Did someone more powerful fund him? Is someone out to get us?" And so on.

That's a good thing! The players are engaged by the world. They're treating it more as a story, and less as a game. If there is no consistency -- if 5th level wizards can sometimes just randomly have the ability to conjure stone towers just because it's fucking magic -- they won't bother to pay any attention to details, they won't look for consistency, and they won't feel like they're interacting with a real world -- they'll feel like they're interacting with a Potemkin village, because they are.
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Post by Darwinism »

Roy wrote: I'm flat out admitting I am dismissing idiots with the minimum possible effort. To be stupid, I would have to do things like be persistently wrong, compulsively lie, defend people's right to not do the job they are paid to do, make MMO style claims and then deny that means the subject I am referring to is MMO like, and straw man constantly. For example, if I were defending 4th edition by lying constantly about it, claiming it's ok the designers wrote terrible rules because the DM can just make stuff up, talk about how monsters don't exist out of combat so what they do when they aren't being slowly ground down by the PCs doesn't matter, and present false arguments such as that counter to Knowledge: Nature, I'd be stupid. But see, I am not doing any of those things.
Actually you are being persistently wrong by attributing positions to people who haven't taken those positions, by throwing the MMO descriptor at 4E without realizing 3.5E is far more like a video game, and by throwing around insults and idiotic portmanteaus because someone dares to have a different opinion about a book than you.
Roy wrote: It takes no great degree of skill to be good at such games. Merely knowing and understanding math is sufficient. Now admittedly, grasp of basic mathematics is a rather rare skill. See Skill Challenges (any version, or just the fact there are so many versions, and they all fail) for examples. Even so, being good at grind games is simply a matter of finding the most efficient way to grind.

In 4.Fail, that means finding a way to get the Sand Veil ability. Then you enter the field, a sandstorm rages, and all minions auto pop. Great XP to be farmed there.
Please, tell me how 4E is any more or less about killing monsters than previous editions. Oh and some examples on how skill challenges fail. Oh and please tell me how you'd find a source of infinite minions.

Thanks in advance!



One thing I thought of; random loot tables really are a lot more like CRPGs and MMOs than 4E; I can't think of any MMO I've played where I actually got to say, "hey I would like this item," instead of getting a randomized bunch of shit from some monster's loot table.
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Post by Darwinism »

talozin wrote:
Halloween Jack wrote:Are you serious? I've run Call of Cthulhu games in haunted houses and caves, and there are no home-building or geophysics rules in that system. You seriously need a system as complex as Dwarf Fortress in order for your players to have verisimilitude?
There is already an extensive body of work on how to build stone towers without magic. So, if your setting doesn't support building stone towers by magic, the players already know what's involved in building one.

But the whole point of magic is that it does not follow the rules of the reality we live in. So if a guy waves his hands and conjures a stone tower, they can't use what's involved in building one in reality as a measuring stick.

If a stone tower goes up overnight in D&D, you can be fairly confident that somewhere around is a guy who's capable of casting Wall of Stone, and probably casting it quite a few times if the tower is of any size. If it goes up overnight in Ars Magica, you can be pretty sure that there's a serious Creo Terram dude in the background. So if a stone tower springs up and you go inside and fight a guy who casts no spells higher than 3rd level, players are -- or should be -- asking questions like, "Wait, where did this tower come from? Was that guy just bait, and his master's watching to see how tough we are? Did someone more powerful fund him? Is someone out to get us?" And so on.

That's a good thing! The players are engaged by the world. They're treating it more as a story, and less as a game. If there is no consistency -- if 5th level wizards can sometimes just randomly have the ability to conjure stone towers just because it's fucking magic -- they won't bother to pay any attention to details, they won't look for consistency, and they won't feel like they're interacting with a real world -- they'll feel like they're interacting with a Potemkin village, because they are.
Wow that is one long-winded way to say, "I cannot use my imagination without rules"

edit: it's especially funny because that is some really metagame shit; you're positing a situation where your players are dissecting the mechanics that they know down to the letter and then saying that this will make them more engaged in the story. Hahahahahahahahahaha.
Last edited by Darwinism on Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by tzor »

talozin wrote:If a stone tower goes up overnight in D&D, you can be fairly confident that somewhere around is a guy who's capable of casting Wall of Stone, and probably casting it quite a few times if the tower is of any size. If it goes up overnight in Ars Magica, you can be pretty sure that there's a serious Creo Terram dude in the background. So if a stone tower springs up and you go inside and fight a guy who casts no spells higher than 3rd level, players are -- or should be -- asking questions like, "Wait, where did this tower come from? Was that guy just bait, and his master's watching to see how tough we are? Did someone more powerful fund him? Is someone out to get us?" And so on.
I thought that there was also an artifact that turned into a stone tower., perhaps it was in an eariler edition and was removed by the time of 3E, I often get my artifacts confused.
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Post by MadScientistWorking »

talozin wrote:If a stone tower goes up overnight in D&D, you can be fairly confident that somewhere around is a guy who's capable of casting Wall of Stone, and probably casting it quite a few times if the tower is of any size. If it goes up overnight in Ars Magica, you can be pretty sure that there's a serious Creo Terram dude in the background. So if a stone tower springs up and you go inside and fight a guy who casts no spells higher than 3rd level, players are -- or should be -- asking questions like, "Wait, where did this tower come from? Was that guy just bait, and his master's watching to see how tough we are? Did someone more powerful fund him? Is someone out to get us?" And so on.
are.
Actually, using your scenario I would start wondering why there aren't wizard construction companies who use magic to make towns using wall of stone.
Last edited by MadScientistWorking on Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Novembermike »

talozin wrote:
Halloween Jack wrote:Are you serious? I've run Call of Cthulhu games in haunted houses and caves, and there are no home-building or geophysics rules in that system. You seriously need a system as complex as Dwarf Fortress in order for your players to have verisimilitude?
There is already an extensive body of work on how to build stone towers without magic. So, if your setting doesn't support building stone towers by magic, the players already know what's involved in building one.

But the whole point of magic is that it does not follow the rules of the reality we live in. So if a guy waves his hands and conjures a stone tower, they can't use what's involved in building one in reality as a measuring stick.

If a stone tower goes up overnight in D&D, you can be fairly confident that somewhere around is a guy who's capable of casting Wall of Stone, and probably casting it quite a few times if the tower is of any size. If it goes up overnight in Ars Magica, you can be pretty sure that there's a serious Creo Terram dude in the background. So if a stone tower springs up and you go inside and fight a guy who casts no spells higher than 3rd level, players are -- or should be -- asking questions like, "Wait, where did this tower come from? Was that guy just bait, and his master's watching to see how tough we are? Did someone more powerful fund him? Is someone out to get us?" And so on.

That's a good thing! The players are engaged by the world. They're treating it more as a story, and less as a game. If there is no consistency -- if 5th level wizards can sometimes just randomly have the ability to conjure stone towers just because it's fucking magic -- they won't bother to pay any attention to details, they won't look for consistency, and they won't feel like they're interacting with a real world -- they'll feel like they're interacting with a Potemkin village, because they are.
Aren't the players just metagaming here? I mean, they're basically saying that this x level wizard (who just created some illusions and flew away on a magic carpet) can't be responsible because you don't get that spell until y level. The PC never saw that character sheet and the concept of a character level is completely foreign to him, so it seems like this is just bad roleplaying.
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Post by Novembermike »

tzor wrote: I thought that there was also an artifact that turned into a stone tower., perhaps it was in an eariler edition and was removed by the time of 3E, I often get my artifacts confused.
Pretty sure there was one in the 3.0 dmg, it was based on the wizard in the Drizzt origins books that moves his tower around in the Underdark.

I think, It's been awhile.
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Post by talozin »

tzor wrote: I thought that there was also an artifact that turned into a stone tower., perhaps it was in an eariler edition and was removed by the time of 3E, I often get my artifacts confused.
You're thinking of Daern's Instant Fortress. If memory serves, it actually turned into an adamantite tower, so it probably wasn't in 3.X because nobody had the wealth by level to afford one. :p
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Post by Crawfish »

Roy wrote:4.Fail has enough real problems that I don't have to make them up. No amount of pretending I am will change that I am right.

Also...
Crawfish wrote:
Roy wrote:.
I actually haven't played MMOs that much, .
Bullshit. You talk exactly like an MMO pubby (fail and dumb portmanteaus, I am expecting "FAIL HUNTARD" at any point now), you can't wrap your head around RPGs abstracting things - there's no way you haven't played MMOs extensively. It's you, you are the World of Warcraft baby.
Fail is internet based, not MMO based.

Hi Welcome

You are dismissed by such memes as you are unworthy of intelligent thought.

I'm better at RPGs, and your favorite grind games than you'll ever be. Despite having not played said grind games very long.

Fact: The job of game designers is to write rules. Saying lolwut, no you guys paying me do my job will get you fired in any other profession. Your "abstracting things" is actually "making up random bullshit" and not in fact abstracting things. This of course is something the customer can do for free, which is why 4.Fail has only sold hundreds of thousands of books, and is already being replaced with 4.5.

Fact: MMOs have more depth than 4.Fail, at least the modern ones do. And when MMO choices consist of "Do I do fire or cold damage?", that's really fucking sad.

Fact: Said grind games also do the math for you, meaning combat doesn't take half the fucking session, each, such that you've long since forgotten why the fuck you're fighting all these bags of HP in the first place.
Run along little boy, you may be late for your raid. Maybe you can get some laughs with some fresh Chuck Norris jokes?
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