The Pursuit of Equality and Balance in Game Design

[Fuchs]

No answer to the "Short range teleportation is a high level power... unless you're playing 4E, where any levle 1 eladrin can do it" line?

[Novembermike]

It's very short ranged and can't be used in rapid succession so if you do something stupid you're stuck?

But they can't use their powers with them. Once the novelty of martial weapons wears off, a 3e fighter has the option of training archery or buying some Winged Boots.

3e fighters don't get any powers, so they're pretty comparable with a bow. Also, can't a 4e fighter mark stuff even if he misses, which should hopefully force the flier into melee range while the 3e fighter just shoots and misses? It's still not a particularly good encounter, but the 4e fighter seems like he should be able to deal with it more easily than the 3e fighter.

[Username17]

You do realize that fighers in 4e can use bows by default, right?

And they don't do that, because the bows are a fake option in 4e. They are using their Dex of 11 instead of their Strength of 22 and they are using a +0 bow instead of using a +3 hammer and they are using a basic attack instead of a power, and instead of getting feat-based weapon math fixes they just aren't. By early Paragon, the difference on to-hit on the bow versus the hammer is eleven fucking points. The ranged attack not only sucks and does shitty damage you wouldn't wipe your ass with in a game that is already set to padded sumo, it only hits on a natural fucking 20.

In 3e that isn't true at all. ACs are set to be low enough that people can power attack through them, and the penalties to hit on a ranged attack for a hammer fighter are not nearly as large to begin with.

In 4e the bow is such an incredibly fake option that you yourself said that they weren't going to fucking use it. In 3e the bow is not a fake option, and is in fact required because the MC isn't going to fucking babysit you by having all the flying monsters come and melee you so that you don't have to ever change tactics against different opponents.

We've come to the crux of the matter. Again. In 4e Fighters can't effectively use bows. And the game expects the MC to coddle the players by allowing them to persist in being completely one dimensional by never ever challenging them outside that single dimension. So the players don't even bother having a bow, because they can't use it effectively anyway and they know with certainty that completely fucking obvious limitations of their character like that are never ever going to be taken advantage of by the monsters because the monsters are just MMO mobs.

-Username17

[Roy]

It's very short ranged and can't be used in rapid succession so if you do something stupid you're stuck?

But they can't use their powers with them. Once the novelty of martial weapons wears off, a 3e fighter has the option of training archery or buying some Winged Boots.

3e fighters don't get any powers, so they're pretty comparable with a bow. Also, can't a 4e fighter mark stuff even if he misses, which should hopefully force the flier into melee range while the 3e fighter just shoots and misses? It's still not a particularly good encounter, but the 4e fighter seems like he should be able to deal with it more easily than the 3e fighter.

3rd edition characters have better damage relative to enemy HP. They can also hit things reliably. This is ignoring the fact that Knockback on a beatstick does what most powers do, except better. And that's just one feat.

[shadzar]

My question to you all is if the system is truly better off by removing these "story powers" from the game? Is the game system truly better when we sacrifice fun and evolution for the sake of balance?

The only way to balance a system would be remove ALL options from players and they play the same characters with the variety of abilities that lets them do the functions of all existing classes at the same time, just choosing when to apply them. This is the "balance" people speak of because it involves competition of the players rather than cooperation. You would need to build Communism the PC Generation Game in order to achieve that kind of balance.

You can still have a story there, but it will not have as much depth as many people would look for.

If people are wanting to play Communism, then they weren't looking for the story anyway, or just don't understand the "balance" that story and balance have within the game.

You would be designing a game like Monopoly, where your playing piece is just a marker on the board, to get those people trying to compete with other players rather than cooperate with them, to have the balance they want.

If you want a game with story potential, you must accept there to be imbalance EVERYWHERE, for it is the differences of people that a story comes from. Where everyone is the same, then there is little chance for any ones story to be different from anothers.

[Roy]

If I'm a bad guy, and I know a group of purely melee people are coming to ruin my day, why wouldn't I hand some bows to my flying monkeys?

One better.

If I'm a bad guy, and I know a group of purely melee people are coming to ruin my day, you had better fucking believe I am making every single one of my minions fly and pewpewpew their gimpy CAP bait selves. Every single one.

[LR]

It's strange. The people defending 4e seem to believe that because TGD created the two most powerful characters in existence and its members are willing to argue edge cases in the rules, we are willing to use The Wish and The Word in actual games. There's some sort of odd conflation between powerful game effects like Genesis or Control Weather and CharOp builds.

[Kaelik]

If yoyu have no problem with commune or contact other plane, I have no idea why you have any problems with 3e divination at all. Scry and Discern location don`t allow you to know things any better than anything else. Apparently you just don`t understand divinsation in 3e at all.

Scry locates a single person who fails their save. If they don`t have detect scrying, or non-detection or nindblank, then you`ve found one person who you already knew anyway, and they can still be in an illusory terrain, or a dark featureless room, or just move next round.

Discern location comes online at the saame level as minblank, I don`t even know why you are worried about it.

[Roy]

Hi Welcome

It's not a straw man, it's an actual argument you actually said.

Provide the quote then. Shouldn't be hard if I said it.

Dude, you just said it. You know, again. Seriously, what the fuck:

but the actual argument was that you shouldn't set up a level appropriate encounter full of flying ranged attackers when the party can't effectively deal with it (ie. all melee characters with no bows or flight).

Do you not see how this is in fact exactly what Roy just said?

Flight is a plot power, and you totally should never have the party fight winged opponents, because they're completely helpless against such foes!

That's the same fucking thing. You just objected when Roy said you said A, and "corrected" him that you had actually said... A. A == A. You're just wall of text arguing at this point.

-Username17

Not just that. I wasn't summarizing his argument. I was quoting it. Verbatim.

I'm curious, how does one design adventures for a group of high-level spellcasters in 3.5 without heaps of fiat? It wasn't a problem in my group, but that's because the spellcaster players wanted to sling fireballs and summon zombies and go on adventures; they weren't interested in turning the game into a thought experiment about how to render a setting completely implausible or kitting out their magnificent summer cottage on the moon.

Being competent helps.

I do not see how breaking the economy with crafting, bypassing any attempt at a plot with divination spells, or creating wacky effects with a Rube Goldberg device made of wondrous items adds up to inventive and innovative roleplaying. Seems more like bean-counting.

Edit: By the by, some of you fine fellows are fixating on this flying archer monkey harpy thing to a degree that borders on the erotic.

Only weak, low level plots are easily trivialized by spells.

[Swordslinger]

I agree that D&D could use better rules for quickly and fairly resolving the efficacy of PC-directed minion duties. Though, it's nice to be on the other side of the quest/mission equation from time to time. Just because you're telling some lowbies to go handle somthing that you're too busy to deal with doesn't mean that you don't have things to do yourself. Maybe I played too much Suikoden in the past, but I enjoy that aspect of assigning NPCs to go do things.

You can do that, but it's entirely DM fiat, and therefore it's a roleplaying thing, not actually something that should be an ability. When you decide to send your minions on a quest, the DM decides if they succeed or what happens.

The other party responsible for this failure though is the game/module designers who don't take abilities into account when writing the world. Every location, badguy, and plot that those guys write out should have detailed information about how they're warded or protected from various things that other people in the world can demonstrably do.

So, every bad guy needs a way to nullify the checklist of plot breakers, so the DM ends up just wasting time thinking of ways for him to beat them. And if you forget one, well flush your adventure down the toilet.

Fuck you novice DM, you never considered how your castle of death would beat a misdirection + greater invisibility + flight combo!

Of course, then DMs just said "fuck it" and dynamically adjusted the world to compensate for the stuff they forgot. In the end just leading to a bunch of powers regulated by DM fiat. The end result of this situation is players don't even bother taking those powers anymore, because they can't count on them. Alternately your DM just says fuck it and starts over at low level again. Is there any surprise how it's hard to find a DM for a high level 3.5 game?

It's better to hand out sane powers you expect people to use as intended rather than powers that ruin the game unless they're countered. I'd rather take weaker powers that I can at least count on.

[sabs]

Like playing 1st and 2nd Edition high level did not have the same potential pitfalls.

What, you're a MAster of Flowers? You can make people save or die on a time delay?
Oh look it's a High level druid, holy crap.. really he can do all that?

It's a high level high fantasy game, of course there's flying, misdirections, greater invisibility. And if you're a novice DM why the fuck are you running a High Level Fantasy game?

I mean, come on.

[Swordslinger]

It's a high level high fantasy game, of course there's flying, misdirections, greater invisibility. And if you're a novice DM why the fuck are you running a High Level Fantasy game?

I mean, come on.

Everyone is a novice the first time they get there. Probably the second time they get there too. You probably need at least 3 high level campaigns under your belt before I'd call someone more than a novice.

As DM, you've got adventures to plan, NPCs to make, maps to draw. As a PC, you really have nothing to do between adventures except to learn your abilities and think of crazy ways to use them to smash the plot. Considering there's 4-5 PCs to one DM, the DM is at a hell of a disadvantage.

[Roy]

Because you always start at high levels instead of ya know, playing your way there?

[Novembermike]

Not just that. I wasn't summarizing his argument. I was quoting it. Verbatim.

That word doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Halloween Jack]

Scry locates a single person who fails their save. If they don`t have detect scrying, or non-detection or nindblank, then you`ve found one person who you already knew anyway, and they can still be in an illusory terrain, or a dark featureless room, or just move next round.

Discern location comes online at the saame level as minblank, I don`t even know why you are worried about it.

What does it add to the game to have this arms race, instead of just having a setting where PCs have to use skills and roleplaying to find mysterious people and places?

Aside from that, a spell that allows you to contact mysterious entities to petition for information is more evocative than casting Know Thing and knowing a thing, IMO, but to each his own.

[sabs]

You work your way up the first few times, and you control how many world changing spells your users have. So you start off by giving him Fly, and you work the kinks out at mid levels, then he gets Greater Invis.. and you work with that one for a while.

And yes, the first couple of times your super bad guy doesn't have Guard Statues with See Invisible, you get bit but you learn your way around it.

[Swordslinger]

What does it add to the game to have this arms race, instead of just having a setting where PCs have to use skills and roleplaying to find mysterious people and places?

Roleplaying *gasp*

What kind of RPG do you think this is? One of those where you actually go around talking to NPCs and solving puzzles with your brain?

Everyone here won't have any of that bullshit, they just wanna tear up their DMs hard-work in a few minutes and leave for the night, content that they ruined the story and everyone's fun. Then they get to have fun telling the DM how it's fault cause he didn't plan for contingency#541.

[Username17]

People who seriously make Roleplaying vs. Rollplaying arguments go on ignore and don't come off. It saves time.

-Username17

[CCarter]

What does it add to the game to have this arms race, instead of just having a setting where PCs have to use skills and roleplaying to find mysterious people and places?

As noted earlier, there are stories which require scrying and whatever to get going. Mindblank or a spymaster or whatever gives the GM the option of running CSI if they want against a clever and well-prepared enemy, OR the epic PCs can use scry+teleport to skip to a crucial epic encounter location without having to walk through the Forest of Painful Mutilation and fight 500 1st level orcs again. Because having all the orcs there autolevel to be CR appropriate is dumb.

[Kaelik]

What does it add to the game to have this arms race, instead of just having a setting where PCs have to use skills and roleplaying to find mysterious people and places?

What arms race? It's not an arms race.

PCs can use scry to watch the movements of a person they have already met. This is useful, provides for some abilities, while simultaneosly offering the roleplaying oppurtunities presented by detect scrying, which allows manipulation of the scryer.

Discern Location allows you to find objects you used to have, people you already know, or the owner of a particular object. That's pretty cool and all, for it's purposes, as a 8th level spell, even if it can't find people who don't want to be found.

The important part of these abilities is the functions that don't come from teleport ambushes, just like the important parts of wall of stone are not the combat applications, since Wall of Thorns is better in combat.

Aside from that, a spell that allows you to contact mysterious entities to petition for information is more evocative than casting Know Thing and knowing a thing, IMO, but to each his own.

Once again, why are you lying? There is nothing about "know things" there is an eigth level spell that tells you the location of an object or person this second, and there is a spell that allows you to watch things from afar, you know, like Jaffar, or every other magician in a tower.

[Halloween Jack]

As noted earlier, there are stories which require scrying and whatever to get going. Mindblank or a spymaster or whatever gives the GM the option of running CSI if they want against a clever and well-prepared enemy, OR the epic PCs can use scry+teleport to skip to a crucial epic encounter location without having to walk through the Forest of Painful Mutilation and fight 500 1st level orcs again. Because having all the orcs there autolevel to be CR appropriate is dumb.

Why not just have the PCs learn what they need to know with skill checks rather than have a Plot Coupon spell?

What arms race? It's not an arms race.

You seemed to argue that divination spells aren't a problem because anti-divination spells are introduced at the same level. So why not just eliminate lame, boring Plot Coupon spells entire, so the DM doesn't have to come up with contrived reasons that the PCs divination spells don't work?

Once again, why are you lying? There is nothing about "know things" there is an eigth level spell that tells you the location of an object or person this second, and there is a spell that allows you to watch things from afar, you know, like Jaffar, or every other magician in a tower.

That spell is what I'm talking about. Well, that and Legend Lore.

And "lying?" Come on. This will go a great deal better if you can steer clear of paranoia that other posters are somehow out to get you. That's RPGpundit's gimmick; let him have it.

[Kaelik]

Why not just have the PCs learn what they need to know with skill checks rather than have a Plot Coupon spell?

I'm genuinely unsure what you mean here. Because Gather Information is not a divination spell, so it cannot help you find out things you or the person you are talking to don't know. Because there is no such thing as a Plot Coupon spell. Because it is interesting to have a "skill check" where the skill is "Have magical abilities to watch persons" and the check is your ability to select the right target to watch, based on a variety of factors, one of which is your magical aptitude vs the opponents ability to resist it.

You seemed to argue that divination spells aren't a problem because anti-divination spells are introduced at the same level. So why not just eliminate lame, boring Plot Coupon spells entire, so the DM doesn't have to come up with contrived reasons that the PCs divination spells don't work?

No, I am arguing that the spells do a lot of things none of which are "Plot Coupon" "Know Things" or "Ruin Game." There exists a method for people to be immune to Discern Location, so it becomes important to use Discern Location to find people who want you to find them, or find locations, or find objects, and that as such, the spells are an important part of allowing PCs to do things besides beg the MC to give them candy and tell them how special they are.

That spell is what I'm talking about. Well, that and Legend Lore.

Right, it lets you know the location of an object, or the other one spys on people. That is not "Know things" it's "Know a specific thing of a specific type that mages are generally known to be able to do."

And "lying?" Come on. This will go a great deal better if you can steer clear of paranoia that other posters are somehow out to get you. That's RPGpundit's gimmick; let him have it.

It is a lie to claim that scry is the spell "Know Things" either that, or you are attempting the "I'm so retarded, I didn't know it was wrong" defense. Which is weird.

[Jilocasin]

You seemed to argue that divination spells aren't a problem because anti-divination spells are introduced at the same level. So why not just eliminate lame, boring Plot Coupon spells entire, so the DM doesn't have to come up with contrived reasons that the PCs divination spells don't work?

That's not what is being said at all. Spells like that should work far more often than not. As has been pointed out, they are not Plot Coupon spells and limitations are actually rather severe. Legend Lore is useful, but if all I have are rumors it could take up to twelve weeks to learn some vague bit of information. Discern Location in no way abrogates the need to do plenty of investigation. I mean come on, you need to have met the person or have something in your possession that they once owned, or have touched an object you want to find.

In no way do any of these spells prevent actual investigation, all they do is widen the ways in which players can actually go about investigating. Maybe the BBEG constantly has mindblank up and therefore you can't really scry on him. If you've met him in the past and actually have a reason to scry on him this should make the players curious and if they've never met him they can't really scry on him anyway. At that point you don't just throw your hands up in the air and say "Shit! Our plot skipping spell didn't work, what the hell do we do now?", instead you realize that the guy with mindblank must have dealings with people who don't have mindblank. You still have to go out and find these people or have some information on them before you can use magic to hone in on the guy you wanted to find.

[Bobikus]

People talk about making appropriate high level plots a lot in these discussions. What would be some good examples of level 16+ plots and how high level NPCs would protect themselves thoroughly against Scry and Die tactics or other high level means of assault?

[Maxus]

Frank and K went over that some in the Dungeonomicon. Stuff like "40 continuous feet of a solid material (like dirt or rock) blocks Scrying and Teleports and all.

But that's a house-rule made so there could BE some sort of defense. There's also a spell that makes Scrying see something else, but it'd take a long time to set up.

Misdirection is generally a good thing, I suppose.

And I like Frank's writeup on the Negative Energy and water planes. The former has Castles Perilous--inhabitable structures made to sit in the void of the Negative Energy Plane and give off no light, being unseeable for the most part. The latter has really low visibility and lots of living space.