The Pursuit of Equality and Balance in Game Design

[Roy]

ITT: 4rries can't tell the difference between actual abilities that counter actual abilities to form some actual depth and strategy, and BAW but the high level PCs can ruin my level 1 plot, WE CAN'T BE HAVING WITH THIS!

You do realize that I'm not even a fan of 4E, right? I'm a fan of GURPS, Burning Wheel, Fate and a few other systems, but not particularly big on DnD. Coming from a more generic role playing background though, 4E makes a lot more sense than 3E than the fact that it actually has a niche as a fantasy miniature simulator (much like the original) unlike 3E which isn't even good at that.

Also, you may not realize this but just insulting people makes you look like an idiot. I can respect Kaelik, his arguments are pretty well thought out even though I disagree with some of the founding ideas, and I feel the same way towards Violence in the Media and a few other posters. You just seem like you have no idea what you're talking about and you try to cover it up (poorly) by bullying (which tends to be pretty ineffective over message boards).

Then you have a high Bluff check. And if you think Kaelik is being constructive, and not insulting, but think the opposite of me you have a Sense Motive check just as bad as that is good.

This is the Den, where the typical post consists of both insulting someone and illustrating in detail why they deserve to be insulted, which typically involves proving their claims objectively wrong.

The only difference between myself and the rest of the people here is that I realize any 4rry is a walking Ferrous Cranus, by virtue of the fact anyone who is not a Ferrous Cranus will eventually run the fuck away from that edition (sooner, rather than later), and as such I do not put pearls before swine by expecting the 4.Fails to be reasonable and intelligent people, as they objectively are not. The others however do not seem to understand this. Even though they've dealt with at least as many of that particular brand of fuckwit as I have.

Now if you would like to prove that you are not a fuckwit, you can start by doing your fucking research. For example:

EDIT: And I can't imagine too many of those characters beating something like time-stop -> finger of death -> finger of death -> finger of death either.

That combo defeats itself. It works in exactly this manner:

You cast Time Stop. Time stops for everyone but you.

You cast Finger of Death. It automatically fails.

You cast Finger of Death. It automatically fails.

You cast Finger of Death. It automatically fails.

The Time Stop wears off. You have accomplished exactly fucking nothing. Except wasting spells.

Your task is to tell me why the Finger of Death was completely ineffective.

[Novembermike]

Is that a joke post or something?

In a party based game focused around bringing different effects to bear that specifically recommends bringing at least one Cleric and one Wizard to the game you are complaining about how only 6 out of 11 classes in the core rules are worth playing, so therefore the entire game sucks? I'm pretty sure GURPS has more than half of it's options as trap options.

In 3E, casting spells is more powerful than anything else you tend to be able to do. Barring a few optimized characters that use interactions that Wizards never intended, full spell progression characters are almost always better at high levels than non full progression casters.

GURPS doesn't tend to have the same issue since combat abilities tend to be a bit more even and a particularly high emphasis on a single thing (combat) evens itself out since a character who's completely optimized for combat tends to end up as a massive sperglord who can't speak to people comfortably, read a book or even wipe his own ass depending on how "optimized" he is. There are some things that tend to be more powerful than others, such as how a Knight with a broadsword, shield and plate armor is much more efficient than trying to make a fencer, but if you take away the 100+ lbs of armor that knight is wearing he's at the disadvantage while the fencer only needs a single item to fight at full capacity.

The fact that some options suck does not mean the game sucks. Choosing Commoner as your class is terrible, that doesn't mean the game is terrible. Once you accept that depending on level, 3-5 classes are not worth playing, you can just play the game with the other 6-8, and have a much better combat engine than 4e ever will.

The problem is that they got the progression wrong. Casters suck at early levels and are way too powerful later on. This is a systematic thing. Also, commoner is a bad example because it's an attempt to work the idea of a master carpenter or similar who isn't an adventurer into the system. It was never intended as a player class while monks and fighters were.

As for Rogue vs Zombie, yeah, probably why literally every single book published since then had a fix.

MiC: Rogues SA zombies.
SpC: Rogues SA zombies.
Complete Adventurer: Rogues SA zombies.
Complete Scoundrel: Rogues SA zombies.
Dungeonscape: Rogues SA zombies.

Ect.

I know, it's just that it's a good idea of the kind of decisions that were made during the development for 3e, namely that they tend to be based on some weird fluff idea rather than mechanics.

If you're going to make arguments, try to phrase them in ways that don't make you look like a moron.

Saying that high level D&D is not about gods fighting gods is just blatant ignorance of the subject matter.

-Username17

High level DnD has never worked. The skill system starts breaking as you go up (the barbarian who's worked with thieves and wizards for the last 100 years and is supposed to be bordering on ascension to godhood can't pick a simple lock and never picked up the rudiments of spellcraft) and a level 25 fighters tends to be a level 1 fighter with items. It does a decent job with wizards and clerics, but it's always been pretty terrible at about 50% of the stuff that could happen in a high level game.

Now if you would like to prove that you are not a fuckwit, you can start by doing your fucking research. For example:

I messed up some system mastery stuff for a system I've admitted I'm not fond of and haven't played in five years, you mess up the meaning of basic words and concepts and I'm the fuckwit?

[Kaelik]

In 3E, casting spells is more powerful than anything else you tend to be able to do. Barring a few optimized characters that use interactions that Wizards never intended, full spell progression characters are almost always better at high levels than non full progression casters.

Once again.... So? That has literally zero bearing on how good the combat engine is.

The problem is that they got the progression wrong. Casters suck at early levels and are way too powerful later on.

That is false. Casters rule at early levels, and continue to rule at all levels.

This is a systematic thing. Also, commoner is a bad example because it's an attempt to work the idea of a master carpenter or similar who isn't an adventurer into the system. It was never intended as a player class while monks and fighters were.

So... You just accept the fact that Fighter and Barbarian are not actually player classes past level 6. Problem solved. This has no bearing on the system engine.

If you have 200 classes, and only 35 of them are worth playing, you still have 35 classes worth playing. So you play those 35 classes, and you judge the combat engine on that. No one judges GURPs combat based on how it works when someone with all his points in craft T shirt and someone else with all his points in Tye-Dye fight to the death using assault rifles.

I know, it's just that it's a good idea of the kind of decisions that were made during the development for 3e, namely that they tend to be based on some weird fluff idea rather than mechanics.

So? What does it matter how they made decisions, if the results are a good combat engine, the reason you think they made decisions seems pretty irrelevant.

High level DnD has never worked. The skill system starts breaking as you go up (the barbarian who's worked with thieves and wizards for the last 100 years and is supposed to be bordering on ascension to godhood can't pick a simple lock and never picked up the rudiments of spellcraft) and a level 25 fighters tends to be a level 1 fighter with items. It does a decent job with wizards and clerics, but it's always been pretty terrible at about 50% of the stuff that could happen in a high level game.

And I suppose high level GURPs characters automatically learn spellcraft and lockpicking by merely being around people who do it, without every spending any points to get it?

Once again, the failure of the Fighter class does not mean that high level D&D doesn't work. It means that the Fighter class doesn't work, and high level D&D played without the fighter class does work.

Though 2e, high level fighters also worked.

[Plebian]

So... You just accept the fact that Fighter and Barbarian are not actually player classes past level 6. Problem solved. This has no bearing on the system engine.

delurking just for this because your argument is that because classes suck due to the system engine favoring casters it has no bearing on the system engine

wow

The Time Stop wears off. You have accomplished exactly fucking nothing. Except wasting spells.

Your task is to tell me why the Finger of Death was completely ineffective.

he's not good at system mastery which is reeeally stupid and only serves to punish new players and reward shut-ins who do nothing but sperg over books; here I fixed it

Celerity -> Time Stop -> Empowered Split Ray of Stupidityx3

awesome that was just slapped into the middle of someone else's turn and you just did [(2d4+2)*1.5]*3 int damage to them, woops that's an average of 18 points of stat damage to int which means anyone not int-based is in a coma and wizards can probably only cast level 1 or 2 spells tops

[Kaelik]

So... You just accept the fact that Fighter and Barbarian are not actually player classes past level 6. Problem solved. This has no bearing on the system engine.

delurking just for this because your argument is that because classes suck due to the system engine favoring casters it has no bearing on the system engine

wow

The system engine doesn't favor casters. Hence, every homebrew Fighter class that doesn't suck. It just so happens that all Fighter feats are ass, and the Fighter class is only given feats and no class features.

If good feats existed, then they would not suck, and the combat engine would be identical.

[name_here]

While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.

Honestly, people. You cast delayed blast fireball or buffs. This is not a hard concept.

[MGuy]

Kaelik... non casters are part of the engine. Non casting monsters are too and they are intended for use by players and MCs. If a system has 125 trap options that are intended for use then I'd have to say that there might be something wrong with the system.

On the other hand I do not agree that leaning on the higher tiers is any better for the game. When a few classes can over exploit the entirety of the engine and win a given encounter 100% of the time by itself I'd have to say that something is wrong with that too.

As for magic being mystery solvers the only real problem I have with that is the fact that you only require a single person to do it. A single wizard can solve the plot by themselves with no help from any of the other team members. Any skill he didn't invest in, or aim he decides to take can be done with a day's worth of rest. And that is not good.

[Kaelik]

Kaelik... non casters are part of the engine. Non casting monsters are too and they are intended for use by players and MCs. If a system has 125 trap options that are intended for use then I'd have to say that there might be something wrong with the system.

Monsters are not trap options. Once again, there are probably over 3000 skills in GURPs across all the splat books. 90% of them are trap options. You judge a game by the content of the working parts.

On the other hand I do not agree that leaning on the higher tiers is any better for the game. When a few classes can over exploit the entirety of the engine and win a given encounter 100% of the time by itself I'd have to say that something is wrong with that too.

Why are you so stupid? No one can win given encounters 100% of the time by themself. I hate you people who actually suck at optimization, and don't know the game at high levels, but complain incessantly about how easy it is for Wizards to break the game.

[LR]

delurking just for this because your argument is that because classes suck due to the system engine favoring casters it has no bearing on the system engine

wow

If you think that "casters rock and fighters suck" is an actual rule and not a result of poor class design, then you need to take a long hard look at the Healer and Warmage.

Fighters using material that is sufficiently powerful (like SaF) can survive and contribute into the double digit levels. I could forget the existence of a Healer at every level.

he's not good at system mastery which is reeeally stupid and only serves to punish new players and reward shut-ins who do nothing but sperg over books; here I fixed it

Celerity -> Time Stop -> Empowered Split Ray of Stupidityx3

awesome that was just slapped into the middle of someone else's turn and you just did [(2d4+2)*1.5]*3 int damage to them, woops that's an average of 18 points of stat damage to int which means anyone not int-based is in a coma and wizards can probably only cast level 1 or 2 spells tops

Wow. That's an amazing waste of time and spell slots, even assuming that you're using the 3e Time Stop that actually allows that combo to work. Are there really people who spend a 9th level spell and four 6th level slots to take out a single opponent?

As for magic being mystery solvers the only real problem I have with that is the fact that you only require a single person to do it. A single wizard can solve the plot by themselves with no help from any of the other team members. Any skill he didn't invest in, or aim he decides to take can be done with a day's worth of rest. And that is not good.

Reread the Divination school and try posting again. You are vastly overestimating the power of a Diviner.

[MGuy]

I'm not saying one or two spells solve a mystery. I'm saying you really only need one person to do it.

@Kaelik: I'm not making an argument *for* GURPS as I don't play it really and I've only played the older edition 2 times.

Second I'm not saying anything about breaking the game just pointing out that the fact that a High level wizardy type can 100% win any casual encounter is bad for the game.

[Kaelik]

@Kaelik: I'm not making an argument *for* GURPS as I don't play it really and I've only played the older edition 2 times.

Right, but you are making an argument that, if applied to any other subject, results in the following conclusion:

Reading is a failed system, because most things written are shit.
If you allow a bunch of shit to declare a working system shitty, then all systems are automatically shitty, so you are just wasting time.

Second I'm not saying anything about breaking the game just pointing out that the fact that a High level wizardy type can 100% win any casual encounter is bad for the game.

And I'm saying that you are fucking wrong.

[LR]

I'm not saying one or two spells solve a mystery. I'm saying you really only need one person to do it.

Your options as a Diviner are:

• Automatically search for a weird list of things within 60 feet. Most notably, magic. (Detect Foo)
• Read minds. (Detect Thoughts)
• Short-Range Magical CCTV (Clairaudience/Clairvoyance)
• Point to a creature you know or type of creature. (Locate Creature)
• View the immediate vicinity of a creature. Requires a weak connection or knowledge of the target and allows a save. (Scrying)
• Long-Range Unmanned Probes (Arcane Eye)
• Medium-Range Magical Spy Cameras (Prying Eyes)
• Ask a yes/no question. (Contact Other Plane)
• Reveal "legends." (Legend Lore)
• Break illusions you can personally see. (True Seeing)
• Find a creature or object. You must have a direct connection to the target. (Discern Location)

Divination is powerful, but not so powerful that you cannot create a mystery in a world that contains it.

[MGuy]

Again I'm not saying Divining solves the mystery... The Face guy?: Wizard, The Sneaky guy? Wizard. Muscle? Wizard. Footwork? Wizard. Information? Wizard.

And you don't have to heavily invest yourself as said wizard to do all of that. You can literally spec yourself to do it over one night's rest.

@ Kaelik: It being true for another system does not make it good that the system in question does it.

Secondly any high level caster who even reasonably knows what the opposition is (and they probably will) can spec themselves to win with few issues.

If the caster in question is of course taken by surprise, for whatever reason, then I can believe that "stuff" has a fair chance of getting them. If this is not true please enlighten me on what exactly endangers a fairly optimal wizard.

[LR]

Again I'm not saying Divining solves the mystery... The Face guy?: Wizard, The Sneaky guy? Wizard. Muscle? Wizard. Footwork? Wizard. Information? Wizard.

Ah. So it's the "If the Wizard can cast spontaneously from his entire spell list he can totally do everything!" argument.

[MGuy]

You are adding things that I'm not saying. He doesn't have to cast his entire spell list to really do any of the things I mentioned. I'm fairly sure one spell for each would do it. As far as I know you don't even have to do it in one day.

My big problem though is that he *can* do it and no one else really needs to help him at all. The only thing that would prevent him from doing so would be the MC making his abilities nigh useless in one fashion or another. If the whole idea behind a character getting abilities is that they work then doing such a thing is railroading. However if you don't and any mildly creative player gets on it then really the rest of the party can take a break because they don't really have to do anything. I don't think that's a good thing.

[Novembermike]

Monsters are not trap options. Once again, there are probably over 3000 skills in GURPs across all the splat books. 90% of them are trap options. You judge a game by the content of the working parts.

There aren't really any trap options in GURPS. Some abilities are weaker than others or very specific in their application, but they're included because they might be useful for a specific setting.

[Kaelik]

@ Kaelik: It being true for another system does not make it good that the system in question does it.

Once again. Reading books is not a bad idea because most books are trash. You just don't read trash books.

If there is a good combat engine, adding 37 trap options doesn't make the combat engine worst. It has literally no effect on the combat engine. Do you know what a combat engine is? Is that the problem here? You don't understand the definitions of words?

Secondly any high level caster who even reasonably knows what the opposition is (and they probably will) can spec themselves to win with few issues.

If the caster in question is of course taken by surprise, for whatever reason, then I can believe that "stuff" has a fair chance of getting them. If this is not true please enlighten me on what exactly endangers a fairly optimal wizard.

No, you can't know what you are going to fight. That's actually absurdly hard to do, and you will never do it. And no, even if you have a rough idea of what you are facing, that doesn't allow a Wizard to win with few issues.

It's not about surprise, I mean, of course Wizards will be ambushed occasionally. That will in fact happen. But even if that never happened, you will never just know what you are facing, and you will face combats you didn't specifically prepare for, and you will lose quite often if you are basing the fights on the Wizard facing fights EL = Wizard level.

There aren't really any trap options in GURPS. Some abilities are weaker than others or very specific in their application, but they're included because they might be useful for a specific setting.

And thus are trap options in literally every single setting they are not useful in.

Fighters are optimal inside entire world is an AMF. That doesn't mean they aren't a trap in every non entire world is an AMF game.

[Novembermike]

And thus are trap options in literally every single setting they are not useful in.

Fighters are optimal inside entire world is an AMF. That doesn't mean they aren't a trap in every non entire world is an AMF game.

This displays a fundamental misunderstanding of GURPS.

[Swordslinger]

High level DnD has never worked.

Well said.

Can anyone here remotely dispute that?

[Psychic Robot]

As far as I know, there were fewer balance issues in 2e than 3e. But that's just hearsay from a friend who has played 2e.

[Username17]

As far as I know, there were fewer balance issues in 2e than 3e. But that's just hearsay from a friend who has played 2e.

That is not in fact true.

People might have known about less balance issues because of a lack of internet webforums, but they were totally there.

-Username17

[MGuy]

Kaelik I can't follow your absurd suggestion. I *can't* know what I'm going to fight? Why the fuck wouldn't I have a rough idea (at high level) of what I'm getting myself into when I go adventuring. I mean at that point I and any other sane character would spend time trying to find out what they are going to encounter.

I think what you mean is that I won't know everything I'll ever be likely to encounter ever. And that is true, but if I'm looking to go to beat the Fire king of Fire mountain I'd believe fire creatures of sorts will be involved. If I'm going Dragon hunting I'll probably be fighting Dragons. Demons when demon hunting. How won't I ever know what I'll be facing especially when I'll likely have the means to put it together.

I may not know *which* type of undead the Necrolord of Nabudice may send at me but I'm pretty sure they'll be undead.

[Blicero]

You can still tell very highpower stories at levels 8-13 in 3e.

The game still feels like a highlevel game even though you haven't yet gotten to the point where the system mechanically falls apart.

4e totally lacks this.

[Username17]

And thus are trap options in literally every single setting they are not useful in.

Fighters are optimal inside entire world is an AMF. That doesn't mean they aren't a trap in every non entire world is an AMF game.

This displays a fundamental misunderstanding of GURPS.

Don't you know? In GURPS all the point accounting is completely meaningless, because the MC is supposed to omnisciently tailor all possible opposition to th players to be precisely calibrated to their specific capabilities no matter how general or obscure they happen to be. Everything is balanced all the time because of the Oberoni Postulate.

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

That is not in fact true.

People might have known about less balance issues because of a lack of internet webforums, but they were totally there.

-Username17

But fighters were better, right?