Cheese Updates, 3.5

[fbmf]

Frank's build is being discussed here.

Game On,
fbmf

[Crissa]

It's illegal because they say so?

...I fail to parse.

-Crissa

[User3]

The numbers are screwed up. You can't enter Mystic Theurge without at least 2 levels of Ur-Priest, and the additional divine spellcasting levels beyond 10 do basically nothing (which isn't actually illegal, I guess).

It's obviously just a mistake. I don't think Frank was asserting that you can enter Mystic Theurge with only 1 level of Ur-Priest. It's like starting a thread to point out that somebody misspelled a word.

[Oberoni]

Heh. I'm assuming that Kirin just wanted to talk about the build, but didn't want to talk about it here. Although I can see why it might look like what Guest is suggesting.

[User3]

Yeah, but there is a big difference between incorrect spelling and screwing up a build. Tight min/maxxed builds with emphasis need to be spot-on.

[User3]

Yes, if the build is being used to prove some point. But in this case, it wasn't. So why even bother bringing it up? I think anyone who can count can see that there are mistakes in that build.

The post that brought it up in this thread was great though, as it proved that Monte Cook and "the vast majority of people who debated this over on the WotC boards" apparently lack the ability to finish reading the sentence they're using as the basis for their arguments.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

1078715992[/unixtime]]It's illegal because they say so?

...I fail to parse.

-Crissa

No, it's illegal because you can't qualify for Mystic Theurge on three levels of wizard and a level of Ur-Priest. However, it's a minor problem because you can simply move the level of Contemplative up in front of the MyTh and then your only problem is the fact that the cheese for the last two levels of MyTh is smaller than the first eight.

I do think that a contemplative Ur-Priest is pretty shady pool, but that doesn't make it illegal by the RAW.

-Desdan

[User3]

Some contemplatives, rather than devoting their lives to a deity, strive to conform themselves to some other abstract principle such as an alignment. Their mission is no less divine than that of contemplatives devoted to a deity, and their methods substantially the same. Many such contemplatives itinerant philosophers, teaching their doctrines in schools or in the marketplace as they travel from city to city, hoping to enlighten the masses.

I'm failing to see how this is shady.

[fbmf]

Probably because Monte said so.

Game On,
fbmf

[Username17]

It's not even intended to go in order, and does not have to. Regardless, as I'm sure you all know, it's entirely legal to gain levels and lose them again and keep your PrCs. If it really bothers you, just take a full 10 levels of Wizard in a big pile, which will get you more than the prereqs for most all of the classes. Now pick up a level of Ur Priest, Hospitaler, and Mindbender.

Get hit for 5 levels of level draining which all come out of your highest class level - which is Wizard. Now you have 2nd level spells out of Ur Priest and can start taking Mystic Theurge levels ot replace the lost Wizard Levels (even if they are restored to you via greater restoration).

There are easier ways of doing it, but that'll do.

It is most distressing to go away for a few days and come back to see a bunch of whiny bichasses coming after me for supposedly not dotting my is and crossing ts. Well, you better be damn sure you're right before you even start - because generally these sort of personal attacks backfire.

Mod Edit: Accusations removed.

-Username17

[User3]

Once again, Guest, please use the report function.

[action]sigh[/action]

Game On,
fbmf

[da_chicken]

1078792510[/unixtime]]
Get hit for 5 levels of level draining which all come out of your highest class level

I'm curious. How do you know you take it from the highest level and not the most recent? We've always assumed it was the latter, and I don't find anything suggesting otherwise.

[Lago_AM3P]

The person responsible for this intensely retarded on-the-spot house rule is... aw, hell. It's not even funny anymore.

But, yes, da chicken. It's there in the (3.0E) FAQ, AFAIK.

In fact, I'm rather surprised at how many on-the-spot houserulings are responsible for some of the cheesiest builds ever.

[da_chicken]

So now the build requires you to use a 3.0 FAQ, but a 3.5 PrC?

[Lago_AM3P]

Yes. Believe it or not, the 3.0E FAQ also applies, as per the disclaimer at the top of the 3.5E FAQ, to rule issues in 3.5E except for when they're explicitly made irrelevant or contradicted by updated. For example, monks and torches.

[da_chicken]

*sigh* The more I play, the more I ignore the FAQs. I either think "duh" or "where are you getting this from and why are you being inconsistent?".

[Mole_2]

Thats because you pronounce it FAQ, try pronouncing it as "fa Q".

[Username17]

Remember, this thread is not about making sense, it's about using official rules to make things break. I won't defend the FAQ, but I will use it in deliberately cheesy builds.

Now, I don't even see anything wrong thematically with being an Ur-Priest Contemplative. You're Lawful Evil, and have to make direct contact with a non-god representitive Outsider who is deeply Lawful Evil. And you are using the book of Vile Darkness. So all you really have to do is join any of the Arch Devil's - either by contacting them directly or meeting one of their representitives.

The Archdevils are not gods, are about as Lawful Evil as you get, and totally support your quest to bring down the gods.

The only part where it gets cheesy is when the characters start getting a divine spellcaster level over 30 - because then their 3.5 Blasphemies automatically kill everyone with no Save.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Is this pretty much why spell immunity, greater (backed up by two of the alignment-screwers of your choice) is a must-have for any cleric who wants to at least be the sole survivor of a TPK?

[Username17]

1078881377[/unixtime]]Is this pretty much why spell immunity, greater (backed up by two of the alignment-screwers of your choice) is a must-have for any cleric who wants to at least be the sole survivor of a TPK?

Well, for any Ur Priest or Nar DemonBinder who wants to be the survivor.

A Cleric often can't quite pull it off because they can't cast spells with an alignment descriptor opposite to their own.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Damn. Oh, well, just something to keep in mind the next time the DM decides that free caster levels are way more harmless than almost anything in the game. :/

Okay. This is narcisstic, but. My DM will let me use this PrC here:

http://frost.bbboy.net/thegamingden-vie ... ][br]She's pretty liberal with the feats (even letting in frickin' persistent spell untouched), but is so stringent on spellcasting after some guys completely ripped through several encounters with briar web and spikes that nothing is allowed for right now except for PHB spells. She's also house-ruled the prayer beads of karma on its lonesome back to 5,000 gp.

I'm sure there's not much to cheesing here, given that feats are going to be tied up until level 12 unless I'm missing something simple-yet-cool, like in that damn essential rogue items thread.

For those paying attention at home, the list in the page before still applies, if you want to read it. If you don't want to, that's fine. Domains are trickery and travel, and I'd like to keep the process as painless as possible.

Any survival / multiclassing / spell / tactical / equipment / stat allocation (ESPECIALLY) suggestions?

[Username17]

but is so stringent on spellcasting after some guys completely ripped through several encounters with briar web and spikes that nothing is allowed for right now except for PHB spells.

Heh. Why is that not surprising?

Oh well, you'll have to rip through the game with Simulacrum, Shades, and the Archmage's Spell-like Major Creation and see if you can get her to ban all spells.

So you are looking to hit people with your hands, despite the fact that your hands will never ever do as much damage as, say, any cleric could ever do by just having the war domain and a half-way decent weapon. That's going to make things difficult.

Fortunately, you don't really get in to the whole personal combat particularly - so I think you should probably play this as a defensive character. That means:

1> You should probably abandon Persistent Spell on things like Divine Power because you don't really give a damn. Use it on things like Prayer and Bless which benefit the entire party.
2> You should fight with clerical spells, like Hold Person and Firestorm, which are as good or better than any spell in the Wizard list at the same level.
3> You should get yourself some mithril plate and a good shield (I think - the wording is unclear whether the shield is included in the medium armor or included in things beyond medium armor).

Then you should wade into battle and cast spells. Take the attack of opportunity, because your AC is going to be ginormous. Avoid all offensive "weaponry". You are a spellcaster, act like it.

This means that you are going to cast buff spells on the party in the morning, and walk into battle as a blaster/perplexer magician who happens to have an AC of 50 and good saves.

Note that despite the fact that you get the Mysticism Domain, there's no reason to pump Charisma for this character. You're looking at losing 10 levels of turning, so your turning is never going to be good and you don't have feats left over to invest in divine feats.

The spellcaster level hurts, it really does. But the character should certainly be viable. Demand the Madness domain. Seriously.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

You don't think there's any merit from getting anywhere from 6 to 7 attacks with full strength? Not even with stupid 3.5E rules which state that you discharge touch spells when you strike foes unarmed? ... I'm thinking that this has something to do with the power attack chain.

I didn't think that the damage gap between real weapons (read: real weapons that simple weapon proficiency net you) and unarmed strikes would be THAT huge, especially if you're just using core spells.

[Username17]

You can't cast a charge spell and full attack. So essentially you are looking at a character who has a spell storing melee weapon for free - in exchange for having a sucky weapon.

Spell Storing weapons are really cheap, so it's not really much of an advantage you are looking at there. Spell storing weapons have a level limit (variously when using Greater Spell Storing Weapons, which are expensive), but work with any targetted spells, not just touch spells.

But the weapon is pretty sucky, so I can't say that I think it is worth it if you plan to go into melee.

The damage disparity of real weapons is that they start with a better threat range, indirectly come with a larger bonus (because of your higher caster level), and can freely accept special abilities.

-Username17

[fbmf]

Nevermind.

Game On,
fbmf