LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

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Judging__Eagle
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LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by Judging__Eagle »

These are all a bunch of notes that I'm taking down as I learn more about this system and how to bust it.


Okay, so I'm in this gaming group and since the 6 initial people that started playing joined a game that I ran in a local comic/gaming store about 3 years ago, I've had lots of other people come and go from what I now call my gaming group (as in, the people that I game with).

Of course, gamers in a group tend to have other related interests, and sone of these is sometimes LARPing.

And now, while LARPing is probably the most scoffed at form of gaming among most P&P gamers, it does have it's somewhat dubious attractions; an excuse to go camping and game and use big foam swords all at once seems to be the big ones.


Now, the particular selection LARPing flavours that occur near where I live seem to be quite large (apparently there is NERO canada, NERO aeon and Epoch).

Now, NERO is the 'big' one, but it seems a bit boring, and I've heard things about Epoch that sound more promising.

One such thing is this:

1. You start 'in-game' with any amount of gear that you first enter with.

Yes, this is seriously all sorts of broken. Why? Easy, b/c you don't have to spend 'in-game' time and real-life money to 'aquire' the item in game.

You can seriously start the game with 3 amazingly well built weapons, a full suite of armours and back up sheilds and they'll allow you to have them. While the player who has been playing for a year has to spend potentially a year to be able to build up the in-game funds to get those items, especially if they bought them after they started playing.

You can also layer armour to stack up in a bizarre fashion to get massive 'armour' values. So, if you wear cloth, then chain on top of that, then leather on top of that, and finally plate on top of that, you get the 'armour' values that all those layers would provide you. You can also do stuff like layer mroe than one layer of an armour type, so you could wear 2 chain shirts and three leather jackets to have them all add up to be some sort of modular armour system.

Note: 'armour' in most LARPing games counts more like 'extra' repairable hit points. So, having 10 'Body' and 40 'armour' is like saying you got 40 extra hit points. So, the advantage to starting with a hundred or so potential 'armour' can be really huge to a 'new' character.

Really, what this does is it means that buying or making gear before you start is the 'better' option.

2. Humans and Orcs are the two best races

Sort of.

To play most races you have to spend 'build-points' to 'buy' your race.

Since you start of with 40 + Flaws*, it's usually a bad idea to be something like an Elf Wizard, since they have to pay 20 points for their race, and then whenever you want bonus hit points (since this is a classless and leveless game, you have to 'buy' body) they pay double.

So, as a result, most power-gamers play humans (no build points to spend on a racial package) or orcs (20 points, to get combat skills and double starting body now your body costs half; so they're the uber-combat race).

3. There are no classes, so anyone can buy combat skills and magic skills

Now, of course, to really break any game, you have to use magic.

Of course, the magic system here is also, really breakable.



Now, the magic system has 6 elements. 4 Prime (Fire, Earth, Water, Air) and 2 Main (?) elements (Essense (white) and Void (Black).

To cast magic of any of those 6 you need to 'buy' Tiers of magic.

Now, the Prime magics have a max of 5 tiers each
which cost:
1 for tier 1,
2 for tier 2,
4 for tier 3,
8 for tier 4 and
16 for tier 5.

The 'Mains' (I've got the wrong word here, but whatever) have a max of Ten Tiers on the same scale:
1 for T1,
2 for T2,
4 for T3,
8 for T4,
16 for T5,
32 for T6,
64 for T7,
128 for T8,
256 for T9 and
512 for T10.

Now, here's a bit of a loop that I'm gonna throw you.

A. If you want to cast an 'elemental' spell, you get to add your Essense and Void Tiers to the Tiers you already have in that element; so if you have Tier 1 Essense, Tier 1 Void and Tier 2 Earth, you count as if you had Tier 4 Earth for casting Earth spells (although, you actually need Tier 4 Earth to cast Tier 4 Earth spells).

So 'boosting' spells by picking up Essense/Void is a pretty cheap way to boost your normal casting

B. You can't have Essense and Void at different levels.

Yeah, that's a bit of a pain. If you have a pile of essense (say, Tier 6 Essense), you can't pick up 1 tier of Void, you need to save up enough build points to get Tiers in Void that same level.

So, there are very, very few essense/void casters. usually they're one or the other.

Of course, you could do some cheap shit by spending 30 build points on getting 4 tiers in Essense and Void, and then having a ridiculous +8 Tiers on any other elemental spell that you cast (plus having access to Tier 4 Void and Essense spells).




4. Apparently, there are amazing combat buff spells


The funny thing is that they're self only.

I might seriously build a caster who turns into a rock-man or water-man and fights with the weapons that the form grants. I'm not sure though.

-----

The only down-side to being a human caster is that you have a teacher to teach you new spells. Which can be a hassle. Since you have to find one in game. If not you have to pay double to buy anything that normally requires a teacher.

If it's spells, you could be an elf since they don't need magic teachers.

Now, apparently in Epoch you can have mulitple 'characters' per player (none of which can know each other).

Since I'm going to be going on a regular basis with a friend of mine, we could very well play Elf alternate characters that teach our human main characters the spells that we want to learn and thus have a guaranteed teacher. Saving a pile of points.

Since the humans could then teach each other spells that they now know, you could very well learn piles of spells on the cheap using that method.


*Flaws:You only can get one flaw's bonus points, but you can have several flaws if you wish; only the greatest one still gives you bonus points) .



Now, I'm only going by what I've remembered and the book itself is so badly layed out that I could shoot myself over the book and the blood and brains splattered onto the pages would not make the mixed up layout any less worse. So, this entire post could all be garbage, but I needed to get it written down so that I don't keep thinking about the same stuff over and over.

And that's not taking into account the fact that whole sections are missing or seem to be misplaced in the book. :ohwell:
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Fwib
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by Fwib »

I take it that to get all those stacking armour bonuses, you actually have to wear the armour?

Several layers of hot, sweaty costume sounds like a down-side to me.
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by MrWaeseL »

Ahaha you can min/max in LARPing? That sounds hilarious (well, as far as anything related to LARPing can be hilarious), tell me more.
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by Catharz »

This is truely awesome. It's one thing to say 'Yep, my character is wearing three suits of armor and carrying 70 lbs of weapons.' Actually doing it is hardcore Powergaming TO THE MAX!!!
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by User3 »

My LARP experience so far has been that all STs are issued Handwavium Sticks and Plotdevicium Armor as standard equipment. Are you sure that you will be allowed to minmax? Or will they just say "whatever" and then screw your character because your pre-approved actions "don't fit the story"?

Not that I'm bitter of past experiences but I do know A LOT of people who ARE bitter and I've stayed the hell away of the local LARPing community.
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by Brobdingnagian »

Well, apparently Epoch is being run by people who aren't total dicks and who do approve of attempts to break the game, so I don't think it's a big issue.

That's only what I've heard, though. We'll find out when we get there.
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Well, upon further inspection it's not 'so' broken.

Armour is on a scaling system, so they give you the most if you do stuff like layer different amours together, but the most that you get (Plate on Chain) is the cap you can get from any location.

So, mixing works to be used as a method to upgrade your existing armour.



Magic still needs teachers, but you need someone who can teach you and isn't an elf (Elves don't teach anyone, smug bastards that they are).

Of course, that doesn't stop us from making new human characters that can teach out main PCs the spells that we want.


On the other hand, if we find a mage who's friendly and has any magical tiers, they will usually have either the highest possible spell availible to them, or they will have every spell at their disposal that they 'could' cast.

Most spell tiers have one spell with them. So, tier 5 Earth, has 1 Tier 5 Earth spell. and with 20 Prime tiers and 20 'Pure' (that's what Essense/Void are called, I knew I flubbed when I called them main) that gives about 40 spells; really there's about 50 since 1st tier magic has about 3 spells per element).

So, if I'm friendly with a mage of Tier X, and they can teach stuff (as in, they burned 1 build point on Teacher 1), then I can probably learn all of the spells that they have tiers for, or at least the highest spell that they can cast.


In any case, I haven't come up with any builds yet; I've got some ideas.

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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Of course, since I'm actually dealing with people as myself, I don't have to 'dump' charisma.

I might do something really retarded and pick up all the racial languages.

There's probably 4-6 worth taking: Elven, Dwarf, Kaern (think the Kzinn feline race out of Niven's Ringworld and Man-Kzinn Wars books, except female dominated) and Orc. There's also Faun and Halfling, but they're usually pretty easy going and can speak human.

Getting a 'language' costs 3 build to be able to 'speak' it (1 to make basic communication, 2 to speak, then 3 to speak well and write).

That's a side idea (a diplomancer/spy build; I can keep my trap shut forever, I can give gifts graciously and I can keep myself unnoticed); since being able to communicate with any faction could be... 'useful'.
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by MrWaeseL »

You're starting to take this thing a little serious and it worries me.
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Nah, I take this about as seriously as I take my tabletop or computer gaming.

Everything has exploitable features, and I'm seriously planning on doing so.


The truly retarded thing about this LARPing club is that you always can rely on getting a set amount of "Build Points" (aka XP) per event.

Since you always get 6 and can double out to 12 if you hand in 'creation points' (aka, do stuff that helps the club function; like hand in material, do work for the club or NPC for a day); you can plot out ahead of time what you need to do in order to create your ideal build.


Also, if you're NPCing there's a bit of a side benefit. Your actual character can't be killed. Seems dumb, but since you're NPCing a monster you technically can't have your PC killed.

So, in some sort of inversly logical fashion, not playing your character alot, allows for your character to advance in power in a safe fashion.
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by Brobdingnagian »

Meaning you only have to play a newbie-level character once, then work for the bad guys for a year, then pop back in suddenly an archmage.
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Actually, if we do go that route (Archmage); we'll seriously be the only people in the entire history of the group to have done so.

The way this games magic system works is that there are 4 Prime (fire, earth, air, water) elements and 2 True elements (Essense (combining of and 2 non-opposed elements) and Void (combining of and 2 opposed elements).


Now, almost anyone can pick up prime magic. You only need to pick up "literacy" and "(magical) awareness" for your character, but whatever, everyone picks those up simply to survive in a magical setting. Even Orcs will pick up Awareness, so that they can loot mana off of a spellcaster they beat up.

True elemental magic is a bit trickier.

First you need maxed (5) ranks in a Prime element to even access True elemental magic. These five tiers will cost you about 31 pts (1 fot T1, 2 for T2, 4 for T3, 8 for T4 and 16 for T5). So you can't really 'start' with maxed tiers really (well, you 'could' since you get 12 points after your first event and can completely rebuild for free with your first character, but whatever).

Second, you have to be either Essense or Void; you 'can' be both, but your tiers in each have to always be balanced. Since each tier always costs retarded (16 per tier and 16 per spell) you don't see any 'balanced' mages.

Third, if you do have balanced Essence/Void and you ever unbalance your Essenese/Void tiers, all of the tiers in the lower type are retroactively changed into Tiers of whatever was higher.

So, if you were 3 Essense/3 Void and picked up 1 more Tier of Essense, you now have 4 Ess/3 Void; but you can't be unbalanced and you now have 7 Essense/0 Void; and you can never go back. Ever.


Fourth, whenver you cast a Prime elemental spell, your Tiers in that Element, your Void tiers and your Essense tiers all add up to determine spell damage, effect and duration.

So, you have the potential to deal more damage with Prime spells than you would with True Spells (but then there's stuff like low level Prime spells that can negate/block those same low lvl Prime spells).


In any case, in a group of 50-ish regular players over the last 7 years, not a single one of the "spell-casting" characters has decided to pick up both essense/void in a balanced fashion.

So, either they're lazy or it's really hard.
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by shirak »

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1182020026[/unixtime]]In any case, in a group of 50-ish regular players over the last 7 years, not a single one of the "spell-casting" characters has decided to pick up both essense/void in a balanced fashion.

So, either they're lazy or it's really hard.


They're lazy. From what you've said so far, the best way to get, for example, Essence 9 is to buy Essence 5/Void 4. A lot cheaper, neh?

I'd go the balanced route if I were you and play it up as much as I could. Makes for an interesting character and is relatively optimized, what else do you want?
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by Brobdingnagian »

Actually, getting (straight) Essence 9 is just as expensive as getting Essence 5/Void 4, which is why it works so that all your tiers of your lower True Element get absorbed into the higher one. Thing is, Essence 5/Void 5 costs as much as either one at Tier 10. So if you want to have access to the highest spells as fast as you can, you just go straight one True Element.

Of course, as a player, I refuse to ever limit my character's options, so I'd never do that. I will go Archmage, because otherwise I'm being nerfed, and I don't appreciate that.
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by User3 »

Brobdingnagian wrote:Actually, getting (straight) Essence 9 is just as expensive as getting Essence 5/Void 4, which is why it works so that all your tiers of your lower True Element get absorbed into the higher one. Thing is, Essence 5/Void 5 costs as much as either one at Tier 10.

Interesting grasp of the math you have, and by interesting I mean wrong.:wink:

Judging Eagle wrote:The 'Mains' (I've got the wrong word here, but whatever) have a max of Ten Tiers on the same scale:
1 for T1,
2 for T2,
4 for T3,
8 for T4,
16 for T5,
32 for T6,
64 for T7,
128 for T8,
256 for T9 and
512 for T10.

If this is correct then buying 9 tiers straight costs 256 (for the 9th tier)+128 (for the 8th)+64 (7th)+32 (you get the drill)+16+8+4+2+1=511
while buying ess 5/void 4 only costs 16(for the 5th essence tier) 2*(8+4+2+1)=16+2*15=16+30=46 and last I checked, 46<256.

of course that is dependant on the information in the OP being correct. if it's not then you can disregard all of the above
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by Brobdingnagian »

Ah, you haven't been keeping up. That math was fixed more recently.

Judging Eagle wrote:Second, you have to be either Essense or Void; you 'can' be both, but your tiers in each have to always be balanced. Since each tier always costs retarded (16 per tier and 16 per spell) you don't see any 'balanced' mages.


True Element Tiers and Spells don't have a scaling cost; it's always 16 points for the next one. So yes, Essence 9 costs exactly the same as Essence 5/Void 4 would.
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by User3 »


Brobdingnagian wrote:Ah, you haven't been keeping up. That math was fixed more recently.

Quote: Judging Eagle

Second, you have to be either Essense or Void; you 'can' be both, but your tiers in each have to always be balanced. Since each tier always costs retarded (16 per tier and 16 per spell) you don't see any 'balanced' mages.


True Element Tiers and Spells don't have a scaling cost; it's always 16 points for the next one. So yes, Essence 9 costs exactly the same as Essence 5/Void 4 would.

:blush:
ah crap, sorry.

umm... hey look over there... :bolt:
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Re: LARPing (Epoch) and how to break it. (Notes)

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Sorry for causing confusion, I was a bit sketchy on the costs for stuff at first, sicne I hadn't really read the book a ton initially and I didn't have it when I was typing the OP.
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