It's all about having fun... so why am I complaining?

[Captain_Bleach]

I may have told you guys in another thread about how the players who play noncasters say that they still have fun. Yet the obvious imbalances still... they do not click. Even though everybody at the table is still having fun, the obvious power differences at high level glare out at me like a disgusting picture you could find on the Internet. While I do not obsess over it, whenever some caster uses a Maximized Disintegrate/Contingency True Resurrection, it leaves an odd taste in my mouth.
The two players who are non-casters are a casual gamer who is not as familiar with the system, and does not like to keep track of multiple combinations and such. The other is a role-player who prizes good stories and an immersive environment to raw powergaming. He was also the same player who had a Barbarian that did not take Power Attack at 1st level.
Is it just me, or the fact that the two players who almost always play full casters are the ones most experienced with the system, moreso than I am, say something? Is it that magic can pretty much do anything and replace noncasters at higher levels, appeal to players who do not want to be seriously nerfed in the long run?
For quite a while, I preferred low-magic settings, and the vast multitude of such settings out there seemingly outnumbers the mid-to-high magic settings (Ravenloft, Kingdoms of Kalamar, Birthright, Iron Heroes, Grim Tales, Scarred Lands [which is more "uncommon" magic], the list goes on. The only High magic settings that I know of are Forgotten Realms, Mystara, and Eberron. Most likely due to my unsatisfaction with the current magic system, I found myself entranced with these rules and settings? Then I realized that I do not hate magic, but rather the way that it is currently set up in D&D. Long do I yearn for a type of game like Conan, where raw experience and talent trump equipment most of the times, or the Legend of Zelda, where it is not magic, but nifty gadgets like the Hookshot and sword techniques.
For a long time, I look for a system that "clicks" with me.
Then I heard Monte Cook released Ptolus, and being one of the designers of 3rd Edition, he most likely knew the ins and outs of all the rules. Then I heard that "it fits 3rd edition like a glove."
However, even upon inspection of the book and sight, I cannot tell if it does. Does the D&D system have a proper "niche" in which it fits best, and if so, why is it so hard for me to find?
I am sorry if this is a long post, but I needed to get this off my chest.

[rapanui]

Does the D&D system have a proper "niche" in which it fits best, and if so, why is it so hard for me to find?

Yeah, D&D has a niche: the "I want to play and I need players and a system that is familiar to most people" niche. Other than that it's almost completely worthless.

Well, not completely... some settings and campaigns are playable up to 10th level, if you nerf some stuff here, ignore save or dies there and are careful with creature CRs. I tend to sound like a broken record about this, but really... D&D as it currently stands is a third rate product. The sad part of the industry is that it's still better than most.

[Brobdingnagian]

You know, there are people, myself among them, who say that D&D is a very different game at 15th level than it is at first. The truth is, it's really not. D&D is, straight from first level to whatever level you choose to end at, a game about breaking into people's homes, stabbing them in the face, and taking their stuff. Yes, the way you go about this changes drastically over even a few levels, but that's really just what it is.

If you want to play a game where all classes are equal right from the start and right into the endgame... play Fallout. Mostly because Fallout doesn't have classes and uses a static increase system, making it, y'know, balanced at all times. At least, as a game. There's no accounting for stupid players, but yours sound okay enough.

[Captain_Bleach]

1184472813[/unixtime]]
Well, not completely... some settings and campaigns are playable up to 10th level, if you nerf some stuff here, ignore save or dies there and are careful with creature CRs.

So, what would you recommend nerfing, and what creatures that I should be careful with?

[RandomCasualty]

1184472813[/unixtime]]
Yeah, D&D has a niche: the "I want to play and I need players and a system that is familiar to most people" niche. Other than that it's almost completely worthless.

I wouldn't say that.

I mean to be honest, theres a lot of complaining about D&D, but I haven't really seen much as far as alternatives. We complain most about D&D, because it's the system we play the most, instead of white wolf, GURPS, Rifts, BESM or something else. If we played one of those systems, then probably we'd be spending post after post analyzing their flaws (and believe me, there are a lot of them).

I have yet to really see anything that I'd consider the perfect RPG system for everything and for a heroic fantasy hack and slash, D&D actually works quite well.

[rapanui]

Works quite well with respect to how crappy everything else is, yes.

D&D is the go-to system for high fantasy, I will admit that. The core d20 system has some horrible gameplay flaws, but at least it's got some semblance of internal coherence and it's actually somewhat intuitive.

Having been a 2e player myself, I can say that 3e is much more playable and enjoyable.

[Brobdingnagian]

Heh... 'THAC0'. That was dumb.

[Interested2]

Is it just me, or the fact that the two players who almost always play full casters are the ones most experienced with the system, moreso than I am, say something? Is it that magic can pretty much do anything and replace noncasters at higher levels, appeal to players who do not want to be seriously nerfed in the long run?

Yes.

Speaking as a fairly short-term D&D player (since around 2000), and as one who's accrued a fair bit of experience in play, what it boils down to is the DM. The system has insane balance issues, and pretty much all of them are related to spellcasting. That said, a bad DM can make playing even the best class a horrible experience, and a good DM can make playing a Rogue fun.

I will admit that it takes a heck of a DM to make a straight, core fighter fun, though.


edit: Incidentally, if you're willing to put the time in, I've always found no-magic, no-psionics Dark Sun to be an absolute blast.

[Captain_Bleach]

1184547320[/unixtime]]Works quite well with respect to how crappy everything else is, yes.

D&D is the go-to system for high fantasy, I will admit that. The core d20 system has some horrible gameplay flaws, but at least it's got some semblance of internal coherence and it's actually somewhat intuitive.

Having been a 2e player myself, I can say that 3e is much more playable and enjoyable.

I just played a game of Ptolus today, and I have to say, I feel quite content. I don't know why, I just feel that all the random and crazy happenings that are in 3rd Edition somehow become in an odd way, coherent.
The spell casters cannot make a profit off of magic items, as free enterprise does not exist, and the spell caster's guild, the Dreaming Apothecary, will rein you in (i.e. kill you). The high level characters are almost always unique individuals in their own right, no more 20th level random NPCs. The truly powerful individuals belong to separate factions in the city, preventing any one group from completely dominating the place.
I also looked back at previous editions and the current edition today. The D&D system today is incredibly coherent. My only real problem is the HUGE amount of 3rd party material and new rules/classes/magic that overwhelm me. The more that I think about it, a Core Only Campaign sounds more than feasible.
The casual gamer finally got around to playing a spell caster, and he is a gunslinging Cleric. He highly prefers his guns (matchlock) over spells most of the time, and despite the fact that we do not have an arcane caster dominating the battlefield, we do have a Druid. He usually prefers wild shaping to that of a small bird, and letting his wolf animal companion guard him and take care of things.
However, nobody is doing crazy mixed third-party sources to cheese out their characters, and as I am not as rules savvy, surprisingly, the fights become more tactical, and combat is slightly long, but enjoyable.

P.S.: In an Eberron campaign, my spell casting PCs decided to go by the DMG cost for casting spells as off-time jobs to gain an insane amount of money. They long realized that offering spells for hire is a LOT more profitable than adventuring in the long term. Ever since, there has been an unwritten code to have spell casting PCs not "sell out" their spells.
World-wise, this made little sense. What is preventing spell casters, rules-wise, from using their spare spells per day to make a tidy profit? I decided that in all campaigns, magic could not be "bought" in the conventional sense, as money meant little to the amazing potential of primary spell casters. Thus, those who want magic items will have to do favors for spell casters. It gave the game an un-trivialized feel to magic, making it seem all the more special.

[RandomCasualty]

1184552226[/unixtime]]
World-wise, this made little sense. What is preventing spell casters, rules-wise, from using their spare spells per day to make a tidy profit? I decided that in all campaigns, magic could not be "bought" in the conventional sense, as money meant little to the amazing potential of primary spell casters. Thus, those who want magic items will have to do favors for spell casters. It gave the game an un-trivialized feel to magic, making it seem all the more special.

Mainly there just isn't much demand for spellcasting.

Unless you're wounded and really need it healed, you probably won't spend money for a CLW spell, especially not given that healing is fast in D&D. Diseases generally are not powerful enough to kill anyone high enough level to have the cash to pay for a cure disease spell.

Most of your time as a spellcaster for hire is going to be finding people to buy your services. And if you're talking Eberron, there are already a lot of other houses offering the same thing, who would get upset if you tried to undercut their prices.

Remember, just because the going price for casting a spell is X gold doesn't mean that you're immediately going to find a buyer.