What are the main mechanical problems of Werewolf the Apoc.?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:42 pm

Ok, I need someone with more experience (or perhaps I should say better) in WtA than me to weigh in on that, because I had only a single character make it to rank two, and then die before he could learn any new gifts. so I literally only know what level 1 play is like.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:38 am

Starting values of Gnosis, Rage, and Background points are basically like variable freebie point costs, because almost everyone ends up buying Gnosis, Rage, and backgrounds one way or another. So an option to start with N more Gnosis is really an option to start with X more Freebie Points, where X is the number of Freebie Points it costs to buy N Gnosis.

Frankly, the variable Gnosis and Rage starting values are a pretty shit idea on that basis.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:55 am

How so, though? Do you mean the option of buying them up at character creation? Should the starting values seriously just be a dot or two higher? Or do you mean they should all just cost the same?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:10 am

Prak_Anima wrote:How so, though? Do you mean the option of buying them up at character creation? Should the starting values seriously just be a dot or two higher? Or do you mean they should all just cost the same?

No. I mean that picking a toggle that gives you more or less Rage isn't going to change your final Rage value, it's going to add or subtract points from other things. You're going to buy some Rage, so your starting value doesn't change your Rage - it changes how many Freebie Points your selected Rage value costs.

-Username17

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:36 pm

In other words, Prak, you should just start everybody with the same level of Rage and Gnosis, give them n extra Freebie Points and call it a day.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:20 pm

People who want to play Ahroun will buy more Rage than Gnosis.
People who want to play Theurge, will buy tons of gnosis.

Having Aspect determine solely what gifts you have access to is actually probably good enough. Those gifts are plenty flavorful.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:29 pm

Fair enough.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:30 pm

sabs wrote:People who want to play Ahroun will buy more Rage than Gnosis.

That player would be an idiot. Gnosis is as a rule more valuable point for point than rage. Rage is a limited, small resource pool. Some gifts run off of rage, but most run off of Gnosis. You either roll your perm gnosis rating or spend a point of gnosis. Plus, you can't spend rage the same turn you spend gnosis.

It also takes longer to regain gnosis. You get rage every night by looking at the moon, you get rage when you get hit, when your friends get hit, etc etc... Gnosis you have to sleep in a caern or make a wits plus enigma meditation roll to regain gnosis or something screwy like that.

It's *way* harder to get gnosis than rage, making a deeper gnosis pool more attractive than a deeper rage pool.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:40 pm

Actually, in my experience, rage is much harder to regain than gnosis, because just getting hit in combat didn't give you rage with the st I played with. Gnosis you just meditate, which is fairly easy.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:43 pm

And most combat monsters want rage, for mawr speed and mawr hit.
getting to go first, and more often, is superfragalisticexpialidotious.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:31 am

Ok, so at a basic, this leaves us with:

Dice Pool becomes modifiers on a d10 with levels of success at 6, 9, 12, 16, and 20
Auspice determines gift list (and renown chart?)
Everyone is Homid (immune to silver in human, but regen is difficult?)
Everyone starts with 3(?) Rage and Gnosis
Tribe determines second gift list, starting Will
Wolf form is a trick you have to learn, and requires a Hard(12) success on your shifting, otherwise you're Dire wolf form.

Did I miss anything? Is there anything in there that's dumb? This still leaves me with rewriting Gifts and other Fera, but that should be a lot easier. If anyone with a better grip on how Werewolf usually goes could give me a corrected prioritization of the thing you can spend freebie points on, that'd help a lot.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:48 pm

It's up to you how you do regen in human form. You can go with hard, or you can go with doesn't happen. The traditional WhiteWolf answer would be, doesn't happen. But you could take the attitude that in human form, they heal fast, just not regen fast.

The starting Rage and Gnosis are entirely up to you.
If you want to make people have hard decisions, make it 1, if you want people to start with 5/5 more likely, or 6/3 3/6 then start it at 3. The higher you start the base, the higher everyone's rage and gnosis are going to be. They're pretty much the most cost effective points in the game, especially at char gen, when they are a flat cost.

Another thing, consider not doing basic chargen, but instead doing XP gen? That might be more work than you're willing to put into it.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:40 pm

What do you mean by XP gen rather than basic chargen?

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:39 am

well, the freebie system is flat.
A point of rage costs x, even if it's point 10.

The EXP system is not flat. So instead of giving freebie points for things, you give them exp, and make them spend them like exp.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:42 am

oh, so just make a chargen system where point cost is influenced by current stat.

yeah, that sounds like a dumb thing to do. D&D did that with point buy abilities, and it's kind of dumb...

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:27 am

Pretty sure what he actually means is replace the chargen system with "You have this much XP, the same stuff that you could get through adventuring after chargen. Spend it by the XP-spending rules and call it chargen."