Alt. Magic Systems: Any bridge the noncaster/caster gap?

[RandomCasualty]

1184681298[/unixtime]]
Ironically I think this slightly inverted in 3E. Wizards can spend down time making scrolls, potions and wands; fighters can't get any benefit from saving attacks. The power factor still favors wizards and most encounters are so micro-managed that the wizard can go full bore and never worry about being out of power for significant amounts of time.

I think the idea of a consumable item really needs to go. Things should be more on the basis of eternal wands, which are 2 use per day spellcasting devices, rather than the 50 charge boomstick that's totally gone after you expend it. Of course, change the per day to per adventure and you'd be set.

Potions should be just some class ability that you can mix X of them per adventure and they expire at the end of the adventure, or something like that.

Scrolls and wands just shouldn't exist in their current form. Truly expendable objects only work if you can't buy them. It's okay to hand out a scroll as treasure for instance, the way they did it in 1E, but once you can go and burn all your cash on scrolls, there's a big problem.

[virgil]

I can agree that consumables are a bad idea in general under the "wealth by level" paradigm for power. However, this does make healing difficult at low levels, as 400gp to cast Cure Light Wounds once a day is going to eat your party's resources fast. Definitely makes the cleric more beholden to spend some of his spell slots on healing post-battle, and assuredly limits the party on their encounters-per-day.

[Captain_Bleach]

So as a last request, what are any of your opinions on the Black Company/True Sorcery spell casting system?

[virgil]

I feel like I'm doing my taxes when I decide to cast a spell. In order to feel comfortable playing it, I'd need to spend a couple hours before I started a campaign just writing crib notes for spells I'd likely cast and shudder if anyone wanted me to cast something oddball mid-game.

[Captain_Bleach]

The magic system is complicated, true, but how is it game balance-wise?

[virgil]

They intended it to be able to recreate all of the spells you could've cast as a normal D&D caster (roughly same levels and all that). I'm not exactly certain how accurate that is in practice, but advocates seem convinced such is the case. Now, having a cumbersome system that only serves to recreate a flawed system seems counter-productive to me; makes it seem like a magic show where they dazzle you so you're too distracted to notice the rabbit from your hat is dead and rotting.

[Captain_Bleach]

The difference is that while PHB spells can be recreated, I noticed that there is no "permanent" durations, creating something out of nothing (Create Matter) is 15th level minimum, making those Create Water spells not as common, while spell slots are replaced by drain. Basically, the spellcaster is limited in the amount of spells by her Hit Points, while spell DCs that greatly exceed your Spellcraft ranks+your magnitude bonus take longer to cast.
Basically, it comes down to having "spell-slinger out-shine the non-full-casters at mid-high levels" or a "Magic is dangerous because if you use too much power too soon, you'll fall unconscious/die if you are using the Reckless Spellcaster feat."
All in all, I actually like the True Sorcery magic system. It makes the spell casters wisely conserve their resources without blasting all the over the place, dumping high level spells to circumvent/end encounters.
Of course no RPG system is perfect, but I would have to settle with the Black Company/True Sorcery system.
~My two cents.

[Username17]

A drain system coupled with fire and forget spells is just a platform for scy and die. You cast spells with durations which exceed your recharge time, you cast, you rest, you jump the fvck up all over people.

The True Sorcery system hands out huge DCs and huge skill bonuses. What you're supposed to do is pull off marginally effective spells in combat. What you actually do is burn yourself up casting buff spells with moderately long durations, then you go to sleep, and then you pop up ready for action.

I wish I had extra arms so I could give it four thumbs down.

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

So, in short, what I have gleaned from this thread, is that none of the magic systems that I presented are good.
So, if one were to find a marginally good magic system by your standards, what would any of you suggest?

[Username17]

Magic systems being "good" is really hard. And usually involves things being non-modular in one way or another. Let's take an example of the True Sorcery you linked to. Let's get some combat magic on!

Spellcraft: DC 22; Component: S; Range: 30 ft.; Effect:
Cone-shaped burst; Duration: 5 rounds (instantaneous cone
effect); Saving Throw: Will negates; Spell Resistance: Yes.
You create a cone of shifting, clashing colors springing forth
from your hand, causing creatures who can see the effect and
who fail their Will save to become either stunned or fascinated
(your choice, but the effect must be the same for all creatures
in the cone) for the duration of the effect.
Math: DC 15 base, +20 ft. (+3), +4 rounds (+4).

Wait, did you read that right? You increase the number of rounds that you stun opponents by 1 for every +1 to the DC? Yessiree! There's no reason to ever learn a new combat spell, because the one you get at first level increases exponentially in lethality every time you get a +1 to your Spellcraft. And not only do you get +1 rank every level, but you get the Talent Feat every other level, and bonus feats like Skill Focus and a special exponential (yes, exponential) Insight bonus to your Spellcraft that doubles every five levels.

So that's a non-starter, straight off. Area of effect save-or-die is avaiable at first level and becomes progressively larger and more lethal and easier to cast as your level increases.

----

So let's think about magic systems which seem to "work" fairly well.

• 
  
• Champions Character Generation is an actual nightmare, revolving as it does around linear algebra (seriously). But since "magic" is treated the same as any other "super power", the "magic heroes" end up being pretty satisfying. Assuming of course that you can make a character.
  
  
• Feng Shui A classic "rules light" system based on bravado and sweeping generalizations. With a rules system only slightly divorced from, say, Munchausen, the magic is all forcibly on the scale of anything else you'd happen to do. Magicians are assumed to have already buffed themselves up, which is why they can run around in an action movie at all. The other characters are action movie stars for no reason, and a good time is had by all.
  
  
• Shadowrun Magic has an intensive set of special physics that apply to it and not to other things. The end result is that it seriously may as well have been called "Bertoldt Ray Technology". The abilities and limitations of magic are exhaustively catalogued, causing the "magic" to in many ways strain believability less than the computers (!) Magic, like Hacking, is a decent addition to the team because it follows different rules from, say, filling a truck with fuel oil and fertilizer (which you can also do).

So what did we learn today? Oddly, it is the most detailed and least detailed systems which have the least problems with "magic". Similarly, the ones most and least tied to a genre are also handling Magic just fine.

It's the mid-range systems. The ones which are "kind-of detailed" or "vaguely fixed to a genre" that fall apart explosively on contact with magic. And this is perhaps not surprising. If everyone is "sort-of" supposed to do one thing or another, then there's probably only room for maybe one exception in the group, right? And if there's only going to be one exception, the guy who does magic probably has an easier time getting that exception than anyone else, now doesn't he?

At extremes of genre fixation (Shadowrun) or vaguery (Champions), Magic is either just as tied down as anything else or just as free as anything else - and thus there's no discrepency.

-Username17

[Crissa]

I always wondered why magic didn't have its own constraints in D&D...

...But then again, nothing in D&D really has constraints, as we really don't know what kind of power each level is supposed to have.

-Crissa

[Captain_Bleach]

As for True Sorcery, that example of broken game balance can be fixed, but what do you think overall of the system, with Spell Energy, Drain, Magnitude, etc.? If you are not familiar with the system, then I can understand if you cannot answer. If you are familiar, I will appreciate your answer(s).

[Leress]

The Slayers d20 has a drain system a little like Shadowrun, but to the comical nature of Slayers no one dies from the drain (well not most of the time) they just fall unconscious. Guardians of Order also made Advanced D20 Magic which brings that same drain system to DnD.

I have full tested it yet so I can only give the bare basics of it. So fair for Slayers d20 it suck just to get the simple spell of as a Priest (the healing class) but that is more to do with the Priest sucking ass then the system itself.

[Captain_Bleach]

Overall, is Advanced D20 Magic a viable way to repair/bridge the gap, or even better, make the gap outright disappear?

[Leress]

1186441287[/unixtime]]Overall, is Advanced D20 Magic a viable way to repair/bridge the gap, or even better, make the gap outright disappear?

Unfortunately it is not, it just adds a couple boards to the bridge. The drain check is a Fortitude save, and so is the control check if the first one fails. The "solution" for the Divine and Arcane divide in magic it to make divine magic take longer to cast (that's right you still get to cast in armour and you can just quicken your spells to get around that problem.) Since Divine caster have more hp than arcane ones they suffer less (percentage wise) and are able to cast more spells since they are able to take more abuse.

Slayers D20 tries to solve this by having the Sorcerer with increased hit die and a good Fortitude save (but then turns around and screws the Priest). Also there is no Arcane spell chance failure anymore, only Spell chance failure so all casters suffer when they wear armor.

The drain system it self is sound, but the DCs maybe set too high.

[RandomCasualty]

1185040638[/unixtime]]A drain system coupled with fire and forget spells is just a platform for scy and die. You cast spells with durations which exceed your recharge time, you cast, you rest, you jump the fvck up all over people.

The more I think about it, the more I think that long term duration spells need to just die.

If it lasts longer than a battle, then it shouldn't be a spell, it should be a class ability.

[Voss]

Is there any actual difference with that change, though?
The character can still do it... does how he does it matter?

[RandomCasualty]

1186509727[/unixtime]]Is there any actual difference with that change, though?
The character can still do it... does how he does it matter?

Well yeah, there is. Mainly because it changes how people look at it as a balance perspective. As a class ability, it's something fixed, and you can't prepare a different one each day. You can also better control scaling and stacking that way too, since you have a fixed number of class abilities and a potentially infinite number of spells.

Consider, how many extra buff spells have been produced beyond the core?

How many extra rogue class abilities have been produced beyond the core?

That's the difference.

[Voss]

Hmm. How about feats instead?

I really don't like the idea of tying specific things into class abilities. It limits the role and flavor a lot. Its one of things I dislike about the rogue- if you aren't dealing with traps and living creatures, you might as well be playing an expert with a handful of special abilities.

And of course, it also depends on the spell. Mage Armor doesn't break *anything*, despite the high duration. And rope trick just means the spellcasters can actually regain their spells (stupid resting rules) and the party bypasses some free XP.

[RandomCasualty]

1186514868[/unixtime]]Hmm. How about feats instead?

Feats are slightly better, because you can't swap them out at a moment's notice, though they do still have possible stacking issues because you can create an infinite number of feats.

Still, ANYTHING is better than making it a spell.

And of course, it also depends on the spell. Mage Armor doesn't break *anything*, despite the high duration. And rope trick just means the spellcasters can actually regain their spells (stupid resting rules) and the party bypasses some free XP.

Mage armor isn't particularly problematic because it's a spell that says: "you create a chain shirt" and because a chain shirt is something that low level characters have anyway, it's not a big deal.

Rope trick is actually pretty problematic because it laughs in the face of resource depletion. Of course, the basic resource depletion model sucks anyway, so it's probably a good hint that we should just dump the idea of resting to recover spells anyway.

[Voss]

And resource depletion is only an issue if the DM decides to force the issue anyway. The assumptions involved in the 'encounters per day' model means it generally isn't an issue.
The truly annoying thing about it is that its totally dependent on whether or not the DM feels like boning the casters today.

Your idea could work (at least generally- I'm sure there are complications kicking about) if spells are split into combat magic and non-combat magic. And you set spells/encounter rather than spells/day. Of course, you could also consider a 'puzzle' situation, like a gorge that needs to be crossed or a sealed door to be an encounter...

It leaves some troublesome spells, but if you have a surprise advantage, you could buff for the coming encounter, and include the after-battle clean up as part of the whole.

[JonSetanta]

I've been thinking of spellcasters with spells as easily swappable as warriors might switch weapons.
With or without resources to manage, is this feasable?

If a spellcaster had a tiny selection they would 'ready', like, say, equal to their level or half-level, but a nearly unlimited knowledge of spells learned (capped by access or research, or something like 10x Spellcraft ranks)

So, the caster would use an action to swap out X number as a move action and have them ready to use.
Buffs would affect either self or target or multiple allies practically as long as the caster is alive but when un-readied they vanish immediately.
Baneful spells, the opposite of buff in effect, are kept on targets as if beneficial buffs but do not take effect unless the caster Concentrates and is within a specific range. Otherwise, something like Dispell, Remove Enchantment, or unreadying the bane ends the passive effect.

Instant effects would indeed be powerful if cast once a round with no limit. However the Sorcerer conundrum comes into play, with limited selection. This is fixed with a few move actions giving both frequency and versatility of effects.

Also, would these be too good if any warrior could pick up a scroll, learn a spell (however slower), ready, and cast it? This would 'bridge the gap' and one would not worry about buff-stacking overnight because the limit is very low and determined by the individual.

[Catharz]

1186513893[/unixtime]]
Consider, how many extra buff spells have been produced beyond the core?

How many extra rogue class abilities have been produced beyond the core?

That's the difference.

Consider, how many different rogue class features can a character use in a week?

How many different spells can a character use in a week?

That's the difference.