The Shadowrun Situation

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:59 am

The fact alone that someone is religious and to what degree says something about how they think and act.

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:15 am

Fuchs wrote:The fact alone that someone is religious and to what degree says something about how they think and act.

That is more true if you include other faith/belief based ways of thinking. Like deciding that you are a Marxist today. This requires perhaps more faith then the typical Episcopalian has. But perhaps maybe not as much faith as the typical couch leaping Scientologist has. ...

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:17 am

Chamomile wrote:Crit, take a look at this bit of Kaelik's post:

So Crit, are you a Mormon, or just an idiot?
The point of all this being, don't waste your time trying to tell Kaelik how to communicate clearly, because that's not what he's here for.

I would posit that Kaelik is a major reason for the ignore button. But really, who gives a shit. You don't need to justify yourself to anyone, least of all anyone here.

Flipside is, if the your most devoted customer base, the guys that host a community forum, debate your products, post advice for new players, blah blah blah is pissed about your product, you should probably do something.

That's more dumpshock than here though.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:43 am

Newbie hate is so refreshing. But if you bothered to compare my post to the stated Den position, that when people are being stupid, you tell them they are being stupid, and then you tell them why, it's pretty much exactly the kind of thing people are sitting here defending as worth having.

Just as it's important that Frank point out when someone's religion causes them to make really bad decisions, so to when someone whines about how mean it is to point out that people's religion makes them make really bad decisions, I get to point out it's stupid, and give the reason why.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I love that newbie hate me for being mean, that's beautiful, but if you are going to insult me for something, it should probably not be for the exact thing that people are praising the Den for.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:54 am

Not to mention that, as other forums illustrate, most people are unable to understand the difference between "your opinion is stupid" and "you are stupid" anyway.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:02 am

Kaelik wrote:I mean, don't get me wrong, I love that newbie hate me for being mean, that's beautiful, but if you are going to insult me for something, it should probably not be for the exact thing that people are praising the Den for.

Your ability to circle-jerk about how awesome you are for being incapable of communicating without resorting to things which are, by definition, logical fallacies (with the fancy latin name and everything) is not really evidence that said qualities are at all valuable.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:29 am

K wrote:I am often amused that people come uninvited to the Den to tell us who we are, often in a lame attempt to defend something we are talking about in one of the most obscure corners of the internet with a handful of regular posters.

Pretty much this, you've gotta be really defensive to give a crap about us.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:37 am

Chamomile wrote:
Kaelik wrote:I mean, don't get me wrong, I love that newbie hate me for being mean, that's beautiful, but if you are going to insult me for something, it should probably not be for the exact thing that people are praising the Den for.
Your ability to circle-jerk about how awesome you are for being incapable of communicating without resorting to things which are, by definition, logical fallacies (with the fancy latin name and everything) is not really evidence that said qualities are at all valuable.

You should learn what the actual fallacy is, because it sure wasn't one.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:23 am

Chamomile wrote:Your ability to circle-jerk about how awesome you are for being incapable of communicating without resorting to things which are, by definition, logical fallacies (with the fancy latin name and everything) is not really evidence that said qualities are at all valuable.

1. It takes two to tango and at least three to circle-jerk.
2. Hypotheses well-grounded in logic and statistics are not ad hominems.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:41 am

Starmaker wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Your ability to circle-jerk about how awesome you are for being incapable of communicating without resorting to things which are, by definition, logical fallacies (with the fancy latin name and everything) is not really evidence that said qualities are at all valuable.
1. It takes two to tango and at least three to circle-jerk.
2. Hypotheses well-grounded in logic and statistics are not ad hominems.

A bunch of posters here rarely employ the 2nd. ;P

Really though, who gives a shit - the entire message drowned out by spite thing is completely missing the point.

People don't log into the gaming den to have their opinion about anything changed. 90% of posters are here either because they are the originals from nifty, or because they read something like Dungeon crusade or the tomes and decided to check out the source. Then they enjoy posting house rules (80% of threads) or complaining about shit (the remaining 20% of threads and 80% of posts for a nice completion of the Pareto rule).

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:40 pm

cthulhu wrote:People don't log into the gaming den to have their opinion about anything changed. 90% of posters are here either because they are the originals from nifty, or because they read something like Dungeon crusade or the tomes and decided to check out the source. Then they enjoy posting house rules (80% of threads) or complaining about shit (the remaining 20% of threads and 80% of posts for a nice completion of the Pareto rule).

So basically /tg/, only without the monster porn.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:54 pm

Starmaker wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Your ability to circle-jerk about how awesome you are for being incapable of communicating without resorting to things which are, by definition, logical fallacies (with the fancy latin name and everything) is not really evidence that said qualities are at all valuable.
1. It takes two to tango and at least three to circle-jerk.
2. Hypotheses well-grounded in logic and statistics are not ad hominems.

2 is false. Whether something is well-grounded in logic and statistics has nothing to do with whether it is ad hominem.

And you're probably looking for "poisoning the well", not "ad hominem".

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:04 pm

I like lurking here, and posting my own silly opinions from time to time. TGD users make me laugh, and they use proper grammar, spelling and language*. Even when they're posting obscene multi-layered insults.
That's what I didn't see on the SR4 boards anymore, and with both games i took part in going so far south, that they hit the pole I didn't really see much sense in even lurking there. I think that all the new SR4 releases are more-or-less steaming piles of crap, and the whole line finished moving to a hellish netherworld around the time War! was published. And with most of the interesting threads going silent, and people posting the same crappy character builds all the time that seems to be a good decision.

* Most of SR4 posts don't even look like pidgin English to me.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:49 pm

cthulhu wrote: People don't log into the gaming den to have their opinion about anything changed. 90% of posters are here either because they are the originals from nifty, or because they read something like Dungeon crusade or the tomes and decided to check out the source. Then they enjoy posting house rules (80% of threads) or complaining about shit (the remaining 20% of threads and 80% of posts for a nice completion of the Pareto rule).

This was basically my original point, actually.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:05 am

Kot wrote:I like lurking here, and posting my own silly opinions from time to time. TGD users make me laugh, and they use proper grammar, spelling and language*. Even when they're posting obscene multi-layered insults.
That's what I didn't see on the SR4 boards anymore, and with both games i took part in going so far south, that they hit the pole I didn't really see much sense in even lurking there. I think that all the new SR4 releases are more-or-less steaming piles of crap, and the whole line finished moving to a hellish netherworld around the time War! was published. And with most of the interesting threads going silent, and people posting the same crappy character builds all the time that seems to be a good decision.

* Most of SR4 posts don't even look like pidgin English to me.

Bit of truth right here. Even when this thread gets off topic it's still more entertaining and interesting than "New PDF released and everything is fine! Enjoy year two of nothing being fucked and all being well because we say it is!"

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:35 pm

Woah. I've just got my eyes on the MilSpecTech e-book today. And after the first three vehicles I've noticed one can start the game with a frakkin' TANK! For the price of a sports car. Is Pink Mohawk being promoted to the Deafult Shadowrun Theme?

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:59 am

*sad trombone*

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:10 am

Kot wrote:Woah. I've just got my eyes on the MilSpecTech e-book today. And after the first three vehicles I've noticed one can start the game with a frakkin' TANK! For the price of a sports car. Is Pink Mohawk being promoted to the Deafult Shadowrun Theme?

Ugh, don't they realize that their rules simply don't do a very good job of handling anything beyond a SUV with hillbilly armor?

[EDIT]
Actually, wait, I forgot how heavily I houseruled the ramming rules. Their rules can't handle an SUV with hillbilly armor.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:40 am

The MilSpec Tech book was doomed before it started. The damage calculation breaks down as soon as you hit a car with anything or anything with an RPG - targets and weapons that are in the basic book. When the first book came out, the military hardware in there was untested, so it was excusable to not know.

The military grade stuff in Arsenal was less excusable. Even when that book was being written I pointed out that those numbers didn't work (like, at all). The excuse was that it was too late to rewrite the combat rules now, and no one was going to actually use a ship mounted mass driver anyway, so who cared?

But for MilSpec Tech, people using this crap is the entire reason for the book. And it has been known that the system can't handle it for five fucking years. So obviously the book is going to be half-assed if not quarter-assed. It was known that putting in workable numbers without overhauling the rules was literally impossible for years before it was even put on the schedule to be written.

-Username17

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:58 am

Also: burst fire gauss cannons and car-mounted laser cannons... =='

raben-aas · Post by **raben-aas** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:14 am

As my group hasn't had any military-grade action yet, can you tell me what the problem is -- or point me to a thread where this has been discussed?

Many thanks!

AAS

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:51 am

Assuming I remember this correctly....

Vehicle armor is hardened. So you only take damage if the weapon exceeds the armor. So assume you have a vehicle with 40 points of armor and a body of 20 moving at 25 meters per turn. What can damage that? Well, a weapon that does 41 hits, say an missile with a big HE charge. (assume no AP etc to make life easier)

Ok, so now you have 41 hits vs 60 dice. Which means (on average) you'll get 20 success and take 21 points of damage. Since this is an area effect, everyone in the vehicle takes 41 points of damage minus (40 dice+personal armor+personal body dice) Oh, and crashes so everyone in the vehicle takes 20 damage. So with one point over the vehicle is turned into burning debris and everyone inside is dead.

With 40 points of damage the vehicle is undamaged, unless is crashes, and then everyone is probably killed.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:19 am

raben-aas wrote:As my group hasn't had any military-grade action yet, can you tell me what the problem is -- or point me to a thread where this has been discussed?

Many thanks!

AAS

KZT basically got it in one. Every three points of hardened armor increases the minimum attack that can damage you up by 3 damage, but if the attack can damage you at all that armor is only worth 3 dice, which averages 1 blocked damage. So at the limit of infinite hardened armor, an attack that penetrates armor by one point will do 2/3 infinity boxes of damage to the structure. High end military vehicles cannot be "damaged" by anything, because any weapon capable of hurting them at all will also vaporize them by instantly filling in their entire condition monitor in one go.

This is an extension of the problem that SR4's experiment with non-proportional damage was a failure. One point of damage equaling one hit on the attack or soak test was simply a really shitty idea. That's where the two-shot problem comes from at the human end: that the window of attack power vs. soak where it takes exactly two attacks to drop your ass is so wide that it includes virtually all attacks vs. humanoid opponents that you will ever make in the game. Dropping someone in one attack is laughably close to impossible with most weaponry, while failing to drop your target in two or three hits is not really going to happen even if your target is an armored troll.

The thing is: we went over this math back in 2005 under FanPro, and while it was discouraging, the devs decided that we weren't going to do anything about it until the revision. Then SR4A was so half-assed that they didn't bother doing anything about it then, and now SR is stuck with a damage system that doesn't scale up or down from double tapping people in the chest with pistols or assault rifles.

Also: the calculation for ramming damage is straight insanity. Remote controlling light trucks as ramming torpedoes does so so ricockulously much damage that you can run over dragons and tanks with ease (at the cost of having each pickup truck explode when you do it). But that's a comparatively minor issue to the fact that when your damage system doesn't scale, it doesn't fucking scale.

-Username17

raben-aas · Post by **raben-aas** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:22 am

Thanks for the clarification! (See, that's one of the reasons I'm hanging out here

).

Anyone got a decent houserule for this? (My gaming group may be headed for S-K territory in Berlin some day, and just may encounter military vehicles there

).

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:03 am

Frank has an HR for hardened armor.
Look at the end of the end of the matrix.