[Politics] Abortion Failure Megathread

[Maj]

You think fetuses are cute? Um...okay. They look more like Sci-fi aliens who will eat you than "cute" to most people.

They do! My first ultrasound was at 12 weeks and my son seriously looked like an alien sitting indian-style and bouncing around everywhere. I don't remember at what point he actually started looking like a baby.

---

I just finished reading The Year of Living like Jesus: My Journey of Discovering What Jesus Would Really Do, by Ed Dobson, and even though it wasn't nearly as funny as the book that inspired it (The Year of Living Biblically), I was really moved by the author's story of voting.

The author, Ed Dobson, is an Evangelical pastor who used to hang with Jerry Falwell and helped run the Moral Majority lobby. The 2008 election fell within his year of living like Jesus, and so he wrote about how he came to the decision that voting was an important thing to do, and how he decided who he voted for.

Dobson, a registered Republican, says that most of his evangelical acquaintances vote strictly on the pro-life question - the rest of a candidate's political views are completely irrelevant. During his Jesus year, however, he wanted to vote for the candidate who was most like Jesus, so he came up with three major areas of Jesus' teachings to look for:

1) The treatment of the poor and oppressed
2) The treatment of one's enemies
3) The commitment to peace-making

He did also spend a considerable amount of time considering the pro-life/anti-abortion question, but this was my favorite part:

...So maybe the issue of abortion is not as black-and-white as some conservatives think. It's a complicated question.

So where do I stand? I still believe that human life begins at conception and that being pro-life is being for life from conception to the grave. So what are the implications of this statement? Simply put, I am for life. As a follower of Jesus, I am for protecting life before birth and after birth. After all Psalms 139 clearly states that God is involved in our lives from the beginning of life to the end of life.

But here's an important point: being pro-life not only means I'm interested in protecting the unborn. It also means I'm interested in protecting those who have already been born.

Being pro-life means being concerned about those who are dying of HIV/AIDS.

Being pro-life means being concerned about those who are living in poverty.

Being pro-life means being concerned about those who lack adequate health care - especially children.

Being pro-life means being concerned about those in our communities who are into gangs and drugs and will ultimately end up in prison.

Being pro-life means being concerned about those in our communities who are being killed in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Gaza Strip, Israel, and places all over the world.

Being pro-life means being concerned about those who are experiencing genocide in countries around the world.

Being pro-life means being all of these and a whole lot more.

I am concerned about those within the conservative movement whose only concern is with the unborn. I agree with them. I stand with them. I support them. But I want to know why in the world they seem not to care about those who are already born.

So I plan to vote for Senator Obama. Even though I disagree with him on the issue of abortion, being pro-life is a whole lot more than being concerned about abortion alone!

(He did, in fact, vote for Obama.)

Whether or not I agree with Dobson about his views on fetal legitimacy or on his religion, I have to say that it was cool to see someone sit down with their own beliefs and have a serious heart-to-heart. And I think he arrived at the key question: If people are going to vote for a candidate who is "pro-life," what does being "pro-life" actually entail?

[Gx1080]

That was a really touching moment of reflection.

Poor fucker must be feeling really stupid right now.

[RadiantPhoenix]

I have been rather disappointed in Obama, but I still think he was a better choice than McCain-Palin. Not that I think that's saying much.

[Gx1080]

Better than a senile old man and a stupid, hypocrite woman.

Whooop.

[tzor]

I was under the impression that it wasn't a private park.

Then you fail.

Zuccotti Park, formerly called Liberty Plaza Park, is a 33,000-square-foot (3,100 m2) publicly accessible park in Lower Manhattan, New York City, privately owned by Brookfield Properties.[1] The park was created in 1968 by United States Steel, after the property owners negotiated its creation with city officials, and named Liberty Plaza Park and situated beside One Liberty Plaza. It is located between Broadway, Trinity Place, Liberty Street and Cedar Street. The park's northwest corner is across the street from Four World Trade Center. It has been popular with local tourists and financial workers.

The park was heavily damaged in the September 11 attacks and subsequent recovery efforts of 2001. The plaza was later used as the site of several events commemorating the anniversary of the attacks. After renovations in 2006, the park was renamed by its current owners, Brookfield Office Properties, after company chairman John Zuccotti.

In 2011, the plaza has become the site of the Occupy Wall Street protest camp. During the demonstration, activists are occupying the plaza and using it as a staging ground for protests throughout the Manhattan Financial District. On October 11, 2011, Ric Clark of Brookfield sent a letter to Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly stating because of "the ongoing trespassing of the protesters we are ... requesting the assistance of the New York City Police Department to help clear the Park."[2]

Brookfield Office Properties Inc. (TSX: BPO, NYSE: BPO) is a North American commercial real estate company. Brookfield Asset Management owns 50% of its outstanding common shares. The company has its headquarters operations in New York City and Toronto.[2] Its New York City head office is on the 11th floor of the Three World Financial Center in Lower Manhattan, New York City, while their Toronto head office is located downtown in the Brookfield Place office complex, which encompasses an entire 5.2 acre city block and offers over 2,600,000 square feet (240,000 m2) of office space[3]

Brookfield owns, manages and develops office properties in the downtown core of New York City, Washington, D.C., Boston, Denver, Minneapolis, Toronto, Calgary, Ottawa, and Vancouver. Brookfield's properties include One Liberty Plaza and the World Financial Center in New York City; Brookfield Place (formerly BCE Place), First Canadian Place, and Queen's Quay Terminal in Toronto; Place de Ville and the John Edmunds Towers in Ottawa, Canadian Western Bank Place and Enbridge Tower in Edmonton; Suncor Energy Centre, Fifth Avenue Place, Altius Centre, Herald Building, and Bankers Hall in Calgary; and Royal Centre in Vancouver. It also operates real estate service businesses and has a land-development business primarily based in Canada.

Property is property ... unless you are a fucking TGD Commie Fucktard.

[DSMatticus]

Poor fucker must be feeling really stupid right now.

Better than a senile old man and a stupid, hypocrite woman.

Seriously; pick something and stick with it. Was voting for Obama over McCain the right choice or the wrong choice? Because on one hand, you're insinuating that we should regret voting for Obama, and on the other hand you appear to be admitting the only other serious option sucked more. These are two inherently contradictory positions.

[Kaelik]

Property is property ... unless you are a fucking TGD Commie Fucktard.

So when Brookefield Properties sues for trespass, then you can complain, but until they do, you can shut up, because you clearly don't actually know anything about the law.

If it's a publicly accessible park owned by a private company, and the company has not expressed any desire for them to vacate the premises, then they are allowed to fucking be there.

Just like when some snot nosed 26 year old college dropout lives in the house that belongs to his parents, he is allowed to fucking live there until they tell him to leave.

[DSMatticus]

The owners made and have withdrew a request for police interference. Currently, there are no complaints against the crowd there.

[RadiantPhoenix]

There was also apparently some sort of agreement that the plaza would be open to the public. Something to do with making a taller building.

[Grek]

These are two inherently contradictory positions.

Presumably, he voted for Ron Paul or something equally daft.

[Gx1080]

Not an US citizen, and "both options suck" isn't contradictory.

[DSMatticus]

Not an US citizen, and "both options suck" isn't contradictory.

But you didn't say Obama sucks, you implied he should regret voting for Obama. But on the other hand, you're admitting Obama was the best available option. Why would you ever regret making the best possible choice you could have? That is the exact opposite of the sort of thing you regret. Whether or not these choices are all bad relative to some mythical, non-existent option is irrelevant. There was a finite list of options (realistically two). One of them is better than the rest; picking that one is not something you should "feel stupid for."

Now, we can all be disappointed that that mythical, non-existent option wasn't there. You and I probably disagree on what it is, but if you're conceding that Obama > McCain then this discussion is already resolved and nobody who voted for Obama should feel stupid and I don't know why you said they should.

[RadiantPhoenix]

that mythical, non-existent option

¡Viva las Verdes!

[Gx1080]

@DSMatticus

Because they were decieved? I mean, if you are watching the OWS protests, that's a lot of people who are unhappy with Obama.

Also, "only two options" is a lie. You can not vote. You can vote for an independant. You can rebel and try to burn the whole structure down.

[DSMatticus]

You can not vote. You can vote for an independant.

Not voting doesn't have any effect except to let other people decide. Voter apathy is not voicing disgust with the current political system, it is voicing content with it.

And even if you find a good independent candidate (I haven't seen any) that's just pissing away a vote. Maybe you don't like that about our [the U.S.] current political climate (it pisses me off, sometimes), but it's a truth.

Because they were decieved? I mean, if you are watching the OWS protests, that's a lot of people who are unhappy with Obama.

And this is still irrelevant; if you are conceding that Obama has done better than McCain would have, then voting for McCain is an objectively worse decision. Now, we can play the Obama blame game, and it turns out most of his failures are from trying to compromise with our ridiculous conservatives. But even if you want to blame it all on Obama, if you aren't willing to say "McCain would have done better," then Obama was still the right decision and everyone who voted for him made the right move. And nobody should "feel stupid" for making the right move.

[Psychic Robot]

Seriously; pick something and stick with it. Was voting for Obama over McCain the right choice or the wrong choice? Because on one hand, you're insinuating that we should regret voting for Obama, and on the other hand you appear to be admitting the only other serious option sucked more. These are two inherently contradictory positions.

you are a fucking moron who buys into the republican vs. democrat paradigm. amazingly you can be dissatisfied with both candidates and abstain from voting or vote for a third party candidate instead of voting for the lesser of two evils


[ ] freedom and prosperity
[ ] traditional two-party candidates

pick one motherfucker

[DSMatticus]

amazingly you can be dissatisfied with both candidates and abstain from voting or vote for a third party candidate instead of voting for the lesser of two evils

Not everyone's stupid enough to think Ron Paul has any good economic policies, PR. Some of us like to approach economics with empirical facts and treat it like a science where you use evidence to validate hypotheses. It's a pretty cool technique they came up with a few centuries ago, and it's the reason you're here now saying stupid things about politics on the internet. Ron Paul doesn't like doing that for his ideas; as a matter of fact, when you do that with his ideas, they turn out to be fucking awful, so when I assert "Obama was the best choice," that point stands, completely unchallenged by the existence of Ron Paul and his terribad ideas on how economies work.

[Psychic Robot]

lol this is coming from the guy who thinks that UHC doesn't involve rationing

[Draco_Argentum]

amazingly you can be dissatisfied with both candidates and abstain from voting or vote for a third party candidate instead of voting for the lesser of two evils

And doing that is giving a leg up to the greater of two evils. This is why the american political system is stupid. Its also why everyone* who likes the american political system is a drooling moron.

*Exception: Republican and Democrat party members who actually like their party. The system is set up to enforce their power, why wouldn't they like that?

[DSMatticus]

The only actual problem with the two-party system in the U.S. is that people express dissatisfaction by swinging back to the other party. So even if you have the best ideas, people will fucking leave you for the other guy unless you live up to their expectations. "Being the better of the two choices" is not sufficient to earn people's votes, and that's fucked up. The conservative media has realized this, so they just play the sabotage and blame game to make people dissatisfied with the other guy, and then people "switch" back to voting conservative in the next cycle, even though the results they actually want they'd get by going further fucking left, not right.

[Psychic Robot]

And doing that is giving a leg up to the greater of two evils.

never compromise with evil.

*Exception: Republican and Democrat party members who actually like their party. The system is set up to enforce their power, why wouldn't they like that?

doubtful. the likelihood of tzor benefiting from republican policies is slim.

[Grek]

There is an important distinction to be made between evil and bad. To be evil is to want what others think is reprehensible, not as a means, but as an end unto it self. Being merely bad at doing what you want to do is not evil. Your goals remain good and, if you were a more skillful person, you would acheive those good goals and be a good person.

There two reasons used to justify why you should "never compromise with evil": Out of a mistaken belief that compromising with certain sorts of people will make you more like them, and out of a correct belief that a compromise with an evil person requires that you agree to pursue objectionable goals in return for aid towards your own noble ends.

I do not think either political party is evil. They are not malicious and they do not intend to destroy the country. Neither party wants anything that is actually reprehensible, not as an end unto itself. The two parties are merely inept when it comes to governence. The republicans think that religion an other anti-emperical doctrines will accomplish their objectives, while the democrats think that being underhanded and obstinate in politics is dentologically forbidden and that simple pragmatism is insufficent reason to have a law. They might do horrible or stupid things, but only because they think it will actually work this time.

This should not be a shock to anyone, since our political system selects for campaigning ability rather than governing ability. People don't want to hear their politician explain they voted for proposition X in order to secure votes for proposition Y from senators A, B and C, or that they're changing drug crime sentencing because they want to cut back on the number of prisoners we have. Those don't make good stories, they can't be set to a theme of "Good vs. Evil" and take too much time to understand properly. So instead we get stuck with people that are terrible at goverence but good at storytelling, or, worse yet, people that buy into the campaign trail lies, running the government.

[tzor]

Calls Confirm Planned Parenthood Misleads on Offering Mammograms http://www.lifenews.com/2011/03/30/call ... ammograms/ via @StevenErtelt

[tzor]

*Exception: Republican and Democrat party members who actually like their party. The system is set up to enforce their power, why wouldn't they like that?

doubtful. the likelihood of tzor benefiting from republican policies is slim.

The likelihood of tzor benefitting from democratic policies is none.

OTOH

The likelihood of tzor hurting from democratic policies is damn high.
The likelihood of tzor hurting from republican policies is slim.

[Psychic Robot]

The likelihood of tzor benefitting from democratic policies is none.

OTOH

The likelihood of tzor hurting from democratic policies is damn high.
The likelihood of tzor hurting from republican policies is slim.

old man, you're going to be on medicare and social security in a few years.



your favored politician wants to drastically cut taxes for the wealthy and large corporations. what are the odds that medicare will remain solvent when that happens? the cold, cruel world of privatized health insurance doesn't look kindly upon the elderly.

tick tock, tick tock. you'd better hope america gets its shit together within the next 20 years or you're going to find out that your devalued dollar won't stretch far when you're paying out of pocket for a hip replacement.