Fixing Metamagic

[User3]

1177344343[/unixtime]]Squirreloid, If your [Metamagic] feat makes no adjustment to the spell-slot, or has an LSLV of zero, or whatever, you ought to specify, I think.

Hmm... i made it a [metamagic] feat under the assumption that all feats that scaled by spell level would get that designation. Its actually hard to know what Frank and K intended for them because we've seen no examples.

So yes, its LSLV -0 and automatically applies to all relevant spells.

I guess i'm guilty of using two definitions of metamagic. (1) metamagic as we currently understand it in the current rules and (2) metamagic as it will presumably be defined in the Frank and K rule set (which effects the structure of the feat, not the way it interacts with anything).

But 2 is really just a huge assumption on my part.

[AlphaNerd]

Needs no help
The following metamagic abilities are feats in their own right, and don't need any help from spiffy multi-ability feats:

Extend
Quicken
Persist
Heighten

Probably ok
The following metamagic abilities are decent and can probably be left on their own.

Twin
Repeat
Delay
Empower
Maximize

I see no reason not to combine maximize and empower. Twin and Repeat should go together. Maybe throw delay in with? It's not really of much use, except with time stop, which should be thrown out of the game.

Also, I'd lump extend and persist together. Maybe they're both good, but they're good in the same way, which is fine.

Also, persist going from 1hr/level -> 24 hours is pretty bad. The earliest you can use persist is 7th level (on 0th level spells), and at that point, you could extend*3 to get nearly the same effect (21 hours). Not saying that you should change it. Getting multiple days out a spell is all sorts of wrong in the current system.

[AlphaNerd]

Metamagic Feats are already inherently scaling feats. There is really no reason to have them also have scaling abilities.

I personally like the following ruleset:

[Metamagic] Feats allow you to increase the potency of the lower level spells you can cast. Each application of a metamagic feat increases the Metamagic Level (ML) by the amount listed. You may only apply metamagic to a spell such that the spell level plus the metamagic level is less than or equal to that of the highest level spell that you can cast. All metamagic effects affect the entire spell. Thus, if you cast a widened, empowered fireball, the empowering doesn't just apply the normal area of effect of the fireball, its effect is widened as well. Anything else is silly and obnoxious.

Preparation casters much choose which metamagic feats they wish to apply to spells when they prepare them. Spontaneous casters must choose which metamagic feats to apply when they cast them. Spontaneous spellcasters don't take longer to cast spells with metamagic feats. That's just silly.

Just like everything else in the game, the save DC for your spells is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Primary Ability Modifier


Subtle Spell [Metamagic]

Still: You may remove any somatic components from the list of components of a spell. This increases the ML by +1.

Silent: You may remove any verbal components from the list of components of a spell. This increases the ML by +1.

Eschew Materials: You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component.


Shaped Spell [Metamagic]

Enlarge: You can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. This increases the ML by +1.

Widen: You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell’s area increase by 100%. This increases the ML by +1.

Sculpt: I'm not allowed to reproduce the text, but you may apply the feat Scuplt Spell to a spell for a ML of +2.


Duration Spell [Metamagic]

Extend: You may double the duration of a spell whose duration is not concentration, instantaneous, or permanent. This increases the ML by +1.

Persist: You may increase the duration of a spell one or two steps along the following chart. Each step increases the ML by +3. If the duration of the spell is not on the chart, you cannot improve it in this manner.
1round/level -> 1min/level -> 10min/level -> 1hr/level -> 24 hours

Strong Spell [Metamagic]

Empower: You may choose to increase the potency of your spells by increasing all numerical variable (random) effects by 50%. This increase the ML by +1.

Maximize: You may choose to set all random numerical variable (random) effects of a spell to their maximum values. This increases the ML by +2.


Quicken Spell [Metamagic]

Quicken: You may choose to cast a spell that normally takes a standard action as a swift action, or you may choose to cast a spell that normally takes a full round action as a standard action. Either use increases the ML by +4.

Spell Timing [Metamagic]

Twin: You get two for the price of one. You may choose to have a spell go off twice immediately with the same everything. This increases the ML by +3.

Repeat: You get one now and one later for the price of one. A repeated spell is automatically cast again at the beginning of your next round of actions. No matter where you are, the secondary spell originates from the same location and affects the same area as the primary spell. If the repeated spell designates a target, the secondary spell retargets the same target if the target is within 30 feet of its original position; otherwise the secondary spell fails to go off. This increases the ML by +2.

Delay: You can choose to have a spell go off anywhere from one to five rounds later. The spell must have a target of personal, touch, or an area effect. This increases the ML by +1

---

On a side note, is Delay even worth +1? Ok, let's assume that you ban timestop. What about then? Frankly, I think it's +0. It's not like it is just an option, you have to set it to at least one round later.

Anyhoo, that's like 6 metamagic feats, which is probably a reasonable number. That actually means you can spend your feats on other stuff like combat feats you won't get too much use out of, or item creation or whatever else.

[User3]

I actually prefer to have some of the metamagic abilities be through skill feats because (1) it makes sense that they are arrived at via skills related to spellcasting and (2) I honestly like how those feats turned out.

I also see no need to combine good metamagic feats together. Wizards get bonus feats every 5 levels - lets not make it too easy to collect them all.

-Squirrelloid

[User3]

And yes, I think that all metamagic stacks. Its stupid otherwise. (My quickened twinned Color Spray still took a standard action, wtf?)

I also don't see the need for a metamagic level. (Or is this the same as my LSLV? - I'm not entirely clear from your description.)

[Catharz]

All I have to say is, power up casters too much and you've got to re-balance noncasters all other again

[CalibronXXX]

Hooray for escalation!

[User3]

1179034374[/unixtime]]All I have to say is, power up casters too much and you've got to re-balance noncasters all other again

I wouldn't have called this a power up. Rather, its fixing a serious flaw in metamagic. As it stands now, most metamagic gets used by people who aren't paying for it (rods, DMM, Incantatrix, etc...) and that has to stop. This lets everyone benefit equally from metamagic, and explicitly prevents metamagicking spells beyond what you could normally prepare.

[JonSetanta]

I like both Squirreloid and AlpaNerd's concepts but when used together it would probably break metamagic entirely.

[AlphaNerd]

1179167379[/unixtime]]I like both Squirreloid and AlpaNerd's concepts but when used together it would probably break metamagic entirely.

?? They're basically the same system (I simply renamed LSLV, which was clunky sounding to ML, and changed the negatives to positives). I came to the conclusion that many of the feats did very very similar things and that lumping them together gave characters more breadth of power rather than overall power. I mean, who takes both twin and repeat? Or both maximize and empower? If there is a specific feat that needs to be broken up, let me know -- my experience with metamagic is limited, as I don't believe in stupid things like metamagic rods, DMM cheese, or whatever, and by RAW, metamagic basically sucks until high levels.

Oh, and I gave everyone heighten for free, modulo 1/2 of a DC. And it scales on Character level, not max spell level, which is useful too, especially for gishes or people who don't want spellcasting to be their life.

Of course, maybe lumping the feats together makes metamagic too good. I've been assuming that the item creation feats will be lumped together into a small pile of feats as well. Assuming it'll take a feat... I mean, fighters get Forge Lore, which eliminates the need for craft arms and armor, (much of) craft wondrous, craft ring. You can also argue for craft wand, staff, and rod. That only leaves craft scroll, brew potion, and the rest of craft wondrous.

[Miryafa]

All I have to say is, power up casters too much and you've got to re-balance noncasters all other again

I kinda like it, because while a 13th level wizard can quicken all their buffs, they can't quicken and chain them until level 17. Unless I'm mistaken, at that point, there's not much else to do with 3rd level spell slots.

[souran]

To prevent the "I use meta magic on every spell" effect, why not just add a rule that says "you can utlize a number of meta magic feats per day = ot your casting stat mod. "

Or, you can only only apply a single meta magic feat 3 times/day unless you select the feat again.

The OP is correct that instead of increasing spell level, meta magic should assist in making your lower level abilities (especially evoker combat abilities) more relevant once they are no longer your higher casting levels.

However, It does seem likely a pointless caster powerup if you can add meta magic to EVERY lower level spell. That isn't choice, thats just a buff and 3.x casters don't need any buffs.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Lower level spells are still limited by spells per day.

[hogarth]

It seems odd that this thread was resurrected from the dust of history.

My two cents: I liked some of the treatment that metamagic was given in Arcana Evolved. For instance, many of the weaker metamagics (silent spell, still spell, extend spell, etc.) are combined into one feat (Modify Spell). And instead of increasing the spell slot level, it either costs two spell slots of the same level or nothing at all to apply a metamagic feat (depending on the strength of the metamagic).

Of course, there are some bits from Arcana Evolved that I don't like. For instance, metamagic feats (or "spell templates", as some of them are called) that improve a spell in exchange for a 30 gp or 50 gp component, which is not balanced whatsoever.

[Kaelik]

However, It does seem likely a pointless caster powerup if you can add meta magic to EVERY lower level spell. That isn't choice, thats just a buff and 3.x casters don't need any buffs.

Yes, they fucking do. Anything that makes the casting of lower level spells more powerful but still not as good as their highest level spells is something that makes them still less powerful than a RoW anything in combat.

Wizards being slightly less strong than a Fighter or Barbarian in combat is not worse than them being much less strong.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Metamagic doesn't help out of combat?

[Kaelik]

Metamagic doesn't help out of combat?

Does it? I'm sure in some edge cases it might help a little bit, but if you gave Wizard's 3+Int skills that would also help them out of combat, but also be so minor that who gives a fuck.

[Seerow]

Being able to easily extend/persist all low level spells for basically no cost is potentially a huge out of combat(as well as in combat) benefit.

Yeah you can argue that is already doable with DMM or Metamagic Cost reducers, but why would you want to make it an easier default option? It's taking some of the strongest stuff that optimized builds work for, and give it away for free, in the name of balance. I mean seriously, what?

[BearsAreBrown]

Being able to easily extend/persist all low level spells for basically no cost is potentially a huge out of combat(as well as in combat) benefit.

Does it? Extend is already cheap as hell and persist is still expensive as balls in this system(as it should be).

Please give an example.

[Seerow]

Being able to easily extend/persist all low level spells for basically no cost is potentially a huge out of combat(as well as in combat) benefit.

Does it? Extend is already cheap as hell and persist is still expensive as balls in this system(as it should be).

Please give an example.

Expensive is a meaningless term when everything is free. Which is what this system is all about, making additions to low level spells for free. This system basically takes all low level spells and attempts to bring the use from those slots up to par with high level slots. The entire premise is attempting to bypass one of the few restrictions on casters, with the justification that it can be done already with certain choices.

Casters don't need the buff. What's worse, this is a buff that mostly shows itself at high levels, where casters need it least.

Yes, extend is already cheap. Now it's free. Persist is still expensive. That doesn't change it's effectively free, and I can persist even short duration 3rd level buffs, and longer duration buffs I can manage up to 5th or 6th level, which is currently impossible.

[Josh_Kablack]

Well the problem with any version of Extend and Persist is that a boatload of spells are "balanced" as though their durations were supposed to mean something, and a roughly equally sized boatload just have their durations cribbed from legacy wordings by monkies line directors applying half-arsed nerfs to things they didn't like in their own games.

Doubling the duration of a spell matters a lot if that duration starts out at less than 5 rounds, because now the spell is all-but-guaranteed to last the entire fight. Doubling the duration of a spell with a duration that starts out at 4 hours-or-longer also matters a lot, since it makes it possible to keep such a spell active for an entire rest period, or an entire days marching, or just cuts the number of castings needed to keep the spell up 24 hours a day down to three or fewer. At higher levels, sorcs and specwizzies have the lower-level slots and or PoPs to burn the six per day and keep turn base durations of 2 hours into up-all-the-time buffs.

However, doubling the duration of a spell is unlikely to matter starting duration is anywhere between 10 rounds and 2 hours. That's a spell that lasts one full fight and then some more time, but a hosey MC or enemies with detect magic will wait for it to expire It really doesn't matter if it starts at 1 minute flat, 1 min per level or 10 min per level - the beneficiary of the spell is still going to want to rush forward to trigger more encounters before it expires.

[Kaelik]

Being able to easily extend/persist all low level spells for basically no cost is potentially a huge out of combat(as well as in combat) benefit.

Does it? Extend is already cheap as hell and persist is still expensive as balls in this system(as it should be).

Please give an example.

Expensive is a meaningless term when everything is free. Which is what this system is all about, making additions to low level spells for free. This system basically takes all low level spells and attempts to bring the use from those slots up to par with high level slots. The entire premise is attempting to bypass one of the few restrictions on casters, with the justification that it can be done already with certain choices.

Casters don't need the buff. What's worse, this is a buff that mostly shows itself at high levels, where casters need it least.

Yes, extend is already cheap. Now it's free. Persist is still expensive. That doesn't change it's effectively free, and I can persist even short duration 3rd level buffs, and longer duration buffs I can manage up to 5th or 6th level, which is currently impossible.

No, it's not, please actually read the damn thing.

What low level spells are you going to Persist? What level are you going to be doing that?

How is having See invisibility go from being 10 minutes per level to 1 hour per level at level 11 a huge out of combat boost? It's See invis, you could make it last all fucking day at level 13. Or you could just fucking Permancy it at level 13. Or you could have been a Fighter and had a non Divination version since level 6, no one cares.

What out of combat duration increases are actually going to be a big deal? No really, I can't think of any of them. Yes, in combat, longer durations will allow you to do better in more combats, great, I don't care, because the Barbarian is still better than you in every combat all day.

I genuinely want to know what the fuck out of combat effects are going to be noticeably more effective because you are persisting or extending them?

Are you awesome because now you can fly 10 minutes per level with a 7th level slot? Overland Flight exists, you were already flying all day.

Are you Detecting Magic all the time, great, no one cares. Name something.

[Seerow]

"Mages are already broken, so them getting their tricks a couple levels earlier with less effort isn't a noticeable enough difference to matter"

This is literally what you are saying. I'm not even sure you actually understand the premise of the topic, because you're saying that you're using a 7th level spell slot for all day flight, where the entire fucking premise of the topic is you'd get that all day flight out of a 3rd level spell slot, as soon as 7th level spells became available. The entire point is that there is no cost to metamagic except getting the feat.

[Kaelik]

"Mages are already broken, so them getting their tricks a couple levels earlier with less effort isn't a noticeable enough difference to matter"

This is literally what you are saying. I'm not even sure you actually understand the premise of the topic, because you're saying that you're using a 7th level spell slot for all day flight, where the entire fucking premise of the topic is you'd get that all day flight out of a 3rd level spell slot, as soon as 7th level spells became available. The entire point is that there is no cost to metamagic except getting the feat.

You are an idiot, you don't get all day flight with a 3rd level spell slot, you get longer, but still not all day, flight out of your third level slot.

Once again, WIZARDS ARE NOT FUCKING BROKEN. They are doing the same thing all the other characters are doing, they just have more versatility, and fewer uses per day. Anyone else who fucking wants it can, at the cost of two feats, have all day FoM and Flight. Alternatively, they can be any of the many classes that get free movement effects. Alternatively, they can get items that give them flight.

Name a single utility spell that is made meaningfully more powerful by free metamagic.

Decect Magic? See Invis? Flight? You either already had them permanent, or you can't even get them all day.

[Seerow]

Once again, WIZARDS ARE NOT FUCKING BROKEN.

And there's the disconnect. If you legitimately think that spellcasters in D&D are not already overpowered, there's literally nothing to discuss here.

What this system does is take a class that already has a shitton of utility, and adds more utility and flexibility to that, for free. This is not something the game needs at all, and I can't believe this is a point I you even seem to think I need to bother elaborating on.