How hard is it to write pantheons people care about?

[Emerald]

The Hebrews ended up cutting three out of four of their gods for not being cool enough.

Somewhat off topic, would you mind going into more detail on this? I've heard of Yahweh's wife Asherah, but not of two other gods that the Hebrews retconned away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Semitic_religions

Yes, thank you, I can use Google too. The wiki page mentions a lot of names with not much detail behind them, and there wasn't a group of just four gods that would match Frank's comment, so I was wondering if there was something more interesting behind the story of two other particular gods than "they were basically forgotten over time."

[K]

You know, in a fantasy world you don't need gods to make sense or be symbolic of thematic because they are actual entities that do shit and are not just competing stories and belief systems.

This means that if the cow-headed god is the god of farming and sodomy and lemonade, he just fucking is and he favors communities and people that do any of the above things.

His servitors can just hand out pronouncements that are contradictory and he can be different gods to different people. Doctrine doesn't even matter because the random people drinking lemonade are just as favored as the sodomites and the farmers.

Basically, religion as we know it doesn't even work when the gods actually exist.

[hogarth]

You know, in a fantasy world you don't need gods to make sense or be symbolic of thematic because they are actual entities that do shit and are not just competing stories and belief systems.

This means that if the cow-headed god is the god of farming and sodomy and lemonade, he just fucking is and he favors communities and people that do any of the above things.

His servitors can just hand out pronouncements that are contradictory and he can be different gods to different people. Doctrine doesn't even matter because the random people drinking lemonade are just as favored as the sodomites and the farmers.

Basically, religion as we know it doesn't even work when the gods actually exist.

Yes, you can do all kinds of crazy, retarded crap with your gods. But in my experience, the GM's idea of "this is crazy and retarded but cool" is usually everyone else's "this is crazy and retarded and lame".

[PoliteNewb]

You know, in a fantasy world you don't need gods to make sense or be symbolic of thematic because they are actual entities that do shit and are not just competing stories and belief systems.

This depends on your assumption about what "actual entities" who are gods are really like.

I generally take 1 of 2 stances:

1.) Gods exist, but don't actually do a whole crap-ton except grant spells to their followers, and work the occasional miracle when they feel like getting off their ass.

2.) Gods are like the gods in Greek myths...who while they come down and destroy towns and turn people into spiders for dissing them and occasionally rape women in the form of swans, are still limited beings, who can't be everywhere at once, and who can in fact be chased off the battlefield by someone sufficiently badass.

If either of these are the case, it is entirely possible to go through your entire life without meeting a god, knowing anyone who met a god, or basically have any concept of gods as more than just a fairly abstract concept.

Basically, religion as we know it is pretty much indistinguishable from religion as most D&D people know it, except that some holy guys can do magic. You still end up taking the word of a guy in a funny hat what gods exist and what they're all about.

[Username17]

Yes, thank you, I can use Google too. The wiki page mentions a lot of names with not much detail behind them, and there wasn't a group of just four gods that would match Frank's comment, so I was wondering if there was something more interesting behind the story of two other particular gods than "they were basically forgotten over time."

The Tetragrammaton is quite likely to be originally the initials of four gods who were merged. More specifically, the beasts of Ezekiel are in Hebrew the four gods who are the god. The whole thing is about the one god coming out of four gods, and there's a good deal of evidence that this did in fact happen.

The trick is that the word "Elohim" can be singular (as in "a god" or "the god") but it can also be plural (as in "gods"). The word is the same, but it is singular or plural depending on whether it is used with singular or plural words. The older books use Elohim as one would a plural word, and the newer books use it as if it were a singular word. Even that is something of a retcon, because "Elohim" is linguistically the plural of the word "El" (meaning "god" or "lord" or "judge"), meaning that in older Hebrew a singular reading of the word Elohim is not even possible.

You can see some of that reality creep in even in the later revisions. Hell, even all the way into English. Of course, Judaism went straight monotheist in the 2nd century CE, and rabbis have done some amazing mental gymnastics to claim that the biblical references to other gods don't imply that other gods actually exist.

-Username17

[hogarth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Semitic_religions

Yes, thank you, I can use Google too. The wiki page mentions a lot of names with not much detail behind them, and there wasn't a group of just four gods that would match Frank's comment, so I was wondering if there was something more interesting behind the story of two other particular gods than "they were basically forgotten over time."

Read more carefully.

[*]El
[*]Asherah
[*]Astarte
[*]Hadad/Ba'al

There's also the sun and the moon in there, but I presume that's not what Frank was referring to.

[tzor]

I had a rough idea for a pantheon model in my highly kit-bashed Nehwon campaign setting. Basically speaking, it was a rough play on the paradox of “men are the dreams of gods” / “gods are the dreams of men” idea. The basic notion was that the gods got their power from those who acknowledge them (note this is not the same as worship; if you hate a god with a passion you still give him power because you acknowledge his existence through your hate) and with that power comes all the garbage and odd ideas that people who give you your power think you actually are.

It did wind up explaining why the common gods in Nehwon are total whack jobs.

[Shatner]

Tzor, that's pretty much how Terry Pratchett did it in his Disc World novels (though likely with sillier results). His book "Small Gods" even explores that sort of deific life cycle.

[DrPraetor]

Well, given the right history to work with, it's easier than people have made out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_personification

Hell, they even overthrow the old order of Olympian/Norse Gods. Britannia, Columbia and Marianne are the triplet daughters of Athena/Minerva/Zisa; along with Rossiya-Matushka (who, let's be honest, is the scary daughter of Hecate/Trivia/Marzanna), they're at war with Germania and Italia, the daughters of Aphrodite/Eros/Freyja, whose sister Helvetia is neutral.

Now, point I'm making here, is that creating such a pantheon from whole cloth is hard not *primarily* because Athena and Neptune have their funky attributes that they've acquired, but because they're grounded in actual countries which have a cool history which they embody.

That is, even if you can culture-jammer a Goddess with the intrinsic appeal of Athena, she isn't going to be as cool as Athena unless you give her a city to patronize which is as cool as Athens.

[Ancient History]

Disturbing thought: In the Hetalia universe, there is probably porn based on Doc's idea.

[A Man In Black]

Disturbing thought: In the Hetalia universe, there is probably porn based on Doc's idea.

Hetalia and its fandom is straight up disturbing period.

[Judging__Eagle]

You obviously haven't met enough girls who dress up in their own Hetalia costumes and go to cons, or do their own photoshoots for the lulz. Three, six, or more,, intelligent, good looking people who are rigorous about their costume design and creation can be pretty and awesome.

Granted, I know very little else about the content or its fandom. Although, to be honest, I never find myself disliking content because the fans are batshit crazy. Nearly every fandom has batshit crazy people in it. From the NFL to, well, D&D. TGD is .... the Cynics, the vicious dogs, of gaming; and we get a collectively bad rap by many softer headed people.

[Prak]

Hey, pretty girls in WW2 outfits, especially tight nazi ones? Always inexplicably hot.

[theye1]

Disturbing thought: In the Hetalia universe, there is probably porn based on Doc's idea.

Hetalia and its fandom is straight up disturbing period.

Any more disturbing then some of the TTRPG fandom?

[BearsAreBrown]

What's wrong with stealing gods? We all know who Zues, Thor, Nerull, Set and Pelor are. One of the best things about FR is that it has multiple pantheons and you can just pick for a game.

Or you can just not write pantheons.

[Prak]

Well, I'm only one shy of the main group, plus a hanger on, and a couple greater deities, so I figured I'd post what I have of the most recent pantheon I've worked on:

The Petite Pantheon

The Apple Picker (LG)-
The Apple Picker takes the form of a young rural woman, dressed in the simple, working clothes of a peasant. Her long, blonde hair is tied back under a broad brimmed, creased hat, and she carries a basket which always contains at least three apples.
The Apple Picker tends to the fields and trees of the civilized lands, taking a preference for apples and their byproducts, but caring equally for all plants. She is known for her honesty and straight forwardness, but also her independence and stubbornness. She disdains avoiding labour and shirking of one's duty, and isn't one to avoid something just because it's distasteful or will get one dirty.
Her independence has been a source of trouble, such as when she took it upon herself to divert a stampede, not thinking to ask for help, before nearly passing out from exhaustion while continuing her one-woman harvest.
Her followers frequently mimic these traits, whether consciously or not, helping without being asked, seeing a task through regardless of personal cost, taking everything as a solo effort, and often pushing themselves far too hard several times before learning the lesson their goddess did.
Her favoured weapon is the whip, and her domains are Endurance, Good, Plant, Strength and Truth. Her symbol is three, bright red apples arranged in a triangular formation.

The Gleaming Scholar (NG)-
The Gleaming Scholar is usually seen as a young woman in iridescent medium-purple robes, bedecked in stars, holding a long wand formed from purple lotus roots, with black shoulder length hair with pink and purple traces throughout. An indigo cloak covers her shoulders, emblazoned with her symbol, a six pointed magenta star surrounded by six smaller white stars.
The Gleaming Scholar is most known for her large library and pursuit of knowledge, which is, in fact, what brought her into contact with the other goddesses of the Petite Pantheon. Charged by her matron, The Solar Queen, to go out and experience life first hand, she quickly formed a fast friendship with the more earthy goddesses, forming an adventuring party which ended the threat of the Lunar Witch.
Though her intellect is vast, and she strives to keep her library organized, it is common for her to lose books, perhaps due to her servant, The Messenger, moving them. She also has trouble understanding things that are not inherently rational, or which do not have a definitive “right way” to be done.
She was personally tutored by the Solar Queen after showing her great aptitude for magic, despite having been easily startled during her initial examination and losing control of her magic. Her long, private tutelage and bookishness has left her at a want for personal accomplishments, though this fact doesn't seem to bother her much.
The Gleaming Scholar's followers tend to focus on the first part of her life, and seclude themselves in libraries almost without thought. When they are pushed out into the wider world and thrust amongst non-scholars, they find much the same difficulty in dealing with the often irrational, sometimes willfully ignorant, people they find, and seek lessons in the writings of the Scholar, her letters back and forth with the Solar Queen, and the stories of her interactions with the other goddesses.
Her favoured weapon is her wand, the Sparkling Twilight, and her domains are Good, Knowledge, and Magic.

The Prismatic Racer (CN)-
The Prismatic Racer is a confident and assured young goddess, extremely proud of her speed and capability, and often bragging about her accomplishments and talents. Though many find her arrogant and brash at first blush, those who are willing to look past this, as well as her tendency to procrastinate (somewhat justified by her speed), find a very loyal and supportive friend. She always takes the form of an androgynous figure, with long, wild-coloured, tousled hair, utilitarian clothing and shoes of the manner worn by local athletes, and a pair of graceful, if disheveled blue feathered wings.
Much as the Apple Picker tends the plants of the civilized lands, The Prismatic Racer controls the weather therein. Her subordinates, mostly winged equines, but also a variety of other flying creatures, aid her in moving and dispersing clouds, creating whirlwinds, rainbows, thunder and lightning, and seeding rain and snow.
Besides her weather manipulation and speed, she also possesses great agility, stamina and durability, frequently employing all four in the pursuit of her duties. She favours an approach that is straight forward, but enjoyable, such as acting as a living ballistic wreaking ball to aid the Apple Picker in demolishing a structure, and turning the tasks themselves into games for herself, competing against her own best time, always striving to improve her already considerable talents.
Her followers tend to be barbarians and weather mages from aerial races, and they seemingly revel in being confounding frustrations to their companions, especially in playing pranks or taunting them one moment, and saving them the next. Yes, the Prismatic Racer's followers tend to be, what is in the parlance known as, Jerkasses with Hearts of Gold.
The Prismatic Racer's favoured weapon, other than herself, is the longbow. Her personal weapon is a unique Thundering Longbow, known as the Booming Rainbow, which imbues arrows fired from it to cast Prismatic Sphere as an instantaneous effect. Her domains are Celerity, Chaos, Competition, Family, Storm, Travel and Weather.

The Pink Baker/Diane (CG)-
Hey, hey you! Yeah you! Still reading all that boring stuff up there? Diane here, baker, tricksters, party-planner, and general cutie-pie extraordinaire! Yeah that’s me, always up for a good party, and always down for a good joke. What? You don’t like jokes? Who doesn’t like to laugh? To eat? To enjoy themselves?
You? Huh… I’m not entirely sure we would hang out. Me and my people, mostly gnomes but we have a few other fay flitting about here… Those fay, let me tell you… Hey, quit it! Don’t skip to the next section. Anyway we like to celebrate. Why just last week we had a wonderful festival celebrating… Whoa, hey what are you doin’ there. Don’t skim over this part. I’m just as import as the other deities. Who do you think they call when they need to have a good time? Me, that’s who! So what if I don’t have some goofy-name weapon or bizarre elemental power. I have class and social skills. You think the Racer or the Bookworm can do half of what I do? Sure they can read or run, or whatever, but ask that Booknerd to look someone in the eye when she talks to them!
Oh don’t look at me like that, I’m only kidding, the other goddess are fun, but I don’t think we can solve problems with fighting… We can chat, have a drink and discuss our problems like proper gods. I mean I’ve convinced storms to avoid cities, I’d talked lava out of its heat, heck, I’ve stopped wars with a smile. You know, the mortals say a smile is worth a thousand words, mine however MINE is worth a thousand secrets. So what do you say? Come on over and grab a drink. I’m sure we can find something to talk about.

**Got a friend to write the first person bit above**
Diane is the only member of the Petite Pantheon to be known by a name, rather than her title, the Pink Baker. While the other goddesses tend to represent concepts or natural forces, Diane seems to be more representative of the need of all sentient creatures to recognize and celebrate major events, or to just festivals and parties to break up the day to day duties even when there's little more to celebrate than a surplus of food and drink. Diane is, essentially, the goddess of fun and jubilation.
Despite this, she does also serve a minor role as a deity of plenty, community, and cooking, as well as trickery, albeit good natured trickery (as opposed to the more malevolent trickery represented by her selfish opposite The Trickster). Where other cultures have countless small gods for domestic domains, those that recognize the Petite Pantheon seem content with a single deity that handles many of those minor purviews.
Her followers tend to be similarly merry and jovial, and make good bakers, tinkerers and, oddly, scouts, if they focus on her trickster aspect. These disciples tend to take secondary roles organizing community festivals. Strangely, a large number of her followers are gnomes, though perhaps that makes more sense than one'd think.
Diane's favoured weapon is actually not a weapon at all, but rather social skills. She prefers to laugh at danger, robbing it of it's threat as it suddenly becomes confused as to why it's victim to be isn't cowering in a puddle of urine. Her symbol is an array of streamers and floating lanterns. Her domains are Chaos, Creation, Gnome and Good

The Peerless Artisan (NG)-
The Peerless Artisan takes on the appearance of a dignified young woman, dressed in a floor length white mink coat, her deep purple hair perfectly curled in graceful ringlets. She wears a necklace of three flawless blue crystals cut in a rhomboid shape similar to a marquise cut.
The Peerless Artisan is the most creative of the Petite Pantheon, and thus represents, to a minor degree, art and artists. Her more predominant role is that of a goddess of beauty, and to a lesser extent, love, though this was not part of her purview until a bit later on in her stories.
If other goddesses of the Petite Pantheon can be said to embody concepts such as honesty, magic, loyalty and mirth, The Peerless Artisan embodies the concept of generosity. Contrary to expectation and belief, she very seldom charges for the masterpieces of fashion she creates, seemingly more interested in the personal challenge and spreading beauty, than money or goods. Many unfamiliar with her initially dismiss her as a privileged, wealthy diva, before her followers show her otherwise through emulating her charitable nature. While their own ability to enhance aesthetic value may not be particularly utilitarian, they frequently volunteer their homes, food, and work spaces for the aid and use of others without being asked.
Her generosity is fabled to extend to marring her own beauty to benefit others, such as cutting her own locks to repair the whiskers of a sea dragon distraught over the loss. Her detractors, or those who simply choose to analyze the stories more closely, however, question the generosity of such an act when one is able to cause their hair to regrow to it's former glory in but an instant.
The Peerless Artisan is more a lover than a fighter, though when she does deign to join combat, she uses a rapier named Rarity, the blade of which she coaxed from a vein of quartz, shaping it to it's current, deadly form with only her magic. Her symbol is the three blue crystals she wears, and her domains are Craft, Glory, Good and Trade.

The Timid Handler, Messenger, Solar Queen and Lunar Witch will be written up at some point that isn't almost 4 god damned am.

I tried to put to use some ideas mentioned in this thread.

[Daztur]

What I'm thinking of doing is to have clerics get spells but the gods all be of questionable reality and all of the information about them being contradictory by having the entities that grant spells either be crazy/liars/completely inhuman in their thought process or some combination of that. The basic idea is sort of like all of the Zeus "Insert Adjective Here" or the Virgin of "Insert Place Here" have different mythologies attached to them in real world mythology.

[K]

You know, I'd really like a version of the gods that doesn't involve granting spells.

[icyshadowlord]

I wrote up a pantheon for a D&D-inspired story of mine once. The problem is, I have no idea whether it's a boring one or an interesting one. Then again, who can even say that other than the actual readers? Second problem is that what some find boring, others find interesting.

Example being that some love inactive/distant gods while others like the more Ancient Greek-style "I feel like knocking up some mortals today" type of deities.

[RobbyPants]

You know, I'd really like a version of the gods that doesn't involve granting spells.

What do you want them to do? Just be really powerful dudes?

[Username17]

You know, I'd really like a version of the gods that doesn't involve granting spells.

What do you want them to do? Just be really powerful dudes?

Pretty much, yes.

The moment you have gods "granting spells" it gets into all kinds of bullshit about beating up gods and people losing spells, or people becoming more powerful than their gods and losing spells and all that shit. If you cast spells and pray to a big red rock, it shouldn't matter whether that big red rock has divine rank 2 or 3.

-Username17

[Ancient History]

There has on rare occasion been introduced mechanisms in D&D where player characters are given the ability to grant spells or spell-like abilities. This tends to end badly, but is fun to watch.

[Swordslinger]

The moment you have gods "granting spells" it gets into all kinds of bullshit about beating up gods and people losing spells, or people becoming more powerful than their gods and losing spells and all that shit. If you cast spells and pray to a big red rock, it shouldn't matter whether that big red rock has divine rank 2 or 3.

That's pretty much how Eberron works. You can worship living people, imaginary beings, ancestor spirits or magic items and you end up getting spells. Even if your god dies, so long as you retain faith, you still get your magic.

And thus far, Eberron is the best pantheon model I've seen in any setting of D&D.

[Ravyn Dawnbringer]

Lurker stepping in.

I've been running with a three way religion for my campaigns for a few years now, and think it might add something to the debate. First, I have to make two things clear. One, the gods walk the earth. You can pimp slap one if you are feeling lucky/suicidal. Secondly, mortals are more used as a means to an end, which in this case means winning the cosmic war.

The gods are as follows.

The Father

The Father is an overdeity who has extremely little to do with day-to-day life on the earth. He created the world, created the other two gods in the pantheon, and walked away to see what would come of it. He thinks of the other two gods as his children, and is hopeful that their squabbles will eventually end.

The Father's portfolio is responsibility, creation, and wisdom.

Lunacy

Lunacy is the principal deity worshiped on the earth, and seeks to kill her brother. She is a goddess concerned with her own agenda and power first, and that of her followers second. She has no other goals at the moment, and is seen as a vengeful and powerful god. She is the god worshipped mostly by humans, as they are her chosen people.

Lunacy's portfolio is humanity, the night, and magic.

Solus

Solus is the last deity in the trifecta of divinity, and is currently on the decline in level of power. He is mostly concerned with the happiness and health of his followers, making him the only of the three truly concerned with mortalkind. He is losing the cosmic war because of his focus on his worshippers, and his unwillingness to use them to further himself recklessly. He is seen as a just and caring god. Solus is worshipped by the other three races of the earth, and embraces all who wish to serve.

Solus' portfolio is the sun, mortals, and morality.


Lunacy is winning the war because she is the least concerned with her follower's safety. Her church employs torture and coercion, and her government is a believer in equal punishment for all. The laws are not inherently evil, but breaking them is almost always a death sentence. She rewards blind fanaticism and expects complete devotion. Solus is concerned more for the races of mortal kind, and so he is taken by suprise time and again by the nearly psychotic fervor that the followers of lunacy show.

If the gods had personalities, the biggest dick wins. Just like in real life.

[Blicero]

The moment you have gods "granting spells" it gets into all kinds of bullshit about beating up gods and people losing spells, or people becoming more powerful than their gods and losing spells and all that shit. If you cast spells and pray to a big red rock, it shouldn't matter whether that big red rock has divine rank 2 or 3.

That's pretty much how Eberron works. You can worship living people, imaginary beings, ancestor spirits or magic items and you end up getting spells. Even if your god dies, so long as you retain faith, you still get your magic.

And thus far, Eberron is the best pantheon model I've seen in any setting of D&D.

This. In my Eberron games, I formalized this to an even greater extent. All faiths were divided into Divinities, Prophets, and Entities.

Divinities were things like the Sovereign Host or Dark Six or animism, where the goods were basically just the aggregate of a bunch of myths and legends that had been unified into some pantheon. They're not stabbable because they're not "real" in any sense.

Prophets were people like the Lord of Blades or Vol, who espouse some specific philosophy or movement. They're totally stabbable.

Entities are creatures like the Undying Court or Lords of Dust or the Dragon Below or Cthulhu, who are superhardcore mothas that people worship out of fear or respect.