*stabs phpBB in the tits*
Gods-damn quote button!
Why is everyone trying to get me to play Earthdawn?
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Windjammer
- Master
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I must confess I never played it much, and that was 15 years ago. But I think stuff like Namegiver's Companion (or Denizens Vol. 1 and 2 as it was then called) and the Parlainth box were really superb. That 'dungeon map on the wall' poster, the numerous rumors in town, the diaries your PCs could buy (all real player handouts), has there ever been a 'mini-setting plus dungeon' boxed set for D&D that was equally well executed? Night Below and the smaller Gates of Firestorm Peak come to mind, but neither comes close.tenuki wrote:Ancient's posts here pretty much summed up what I like about Earthdawn and its campaign background. And as always, if there is something you don't like, simply change it.Windjammer wrote: I'm no part of this conversation but wanted to thank you both for expressing your positions. Got me interested in Earthdawn again. Like K, I had a pretty low idea of blood elves, but thanks to AncientHistory I actually revised that opinion to a much more favourable one. Cheers.
Can't say much about the ruleset.
Last edited by Windjammer on Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Now the whole setting is ruined.Fuchs wrote:They stated they were monogamous too, and the males competed fiercly for the females. A whole page or two about their courting rituals.Kot wrote:Polygamy/clan marriage. They still mate for life, and the wife has one kid with each husband.Fuchs wrote:Windlings: female to male ratio 1-10 or so. Mating for life. And they usually have only one kid per marriage.
Yeah, whoever wrote that shit had no clue about mathematics. There would have been no windlings after a few generations, even without any horrors to contend with.
There, fixed it.
So, yeah, fuckers did not do math at all.
Come to think of it, windlings are one thing I houseruled in my campaign a few years ago. In previous campaigns we found that windling archers and mages in particular are totally OP with their 60/d10 karma pool.
As characters progress, they eventually get to spend karma on pretty much every roll that matters. A windling's d10 karma die compared to a troll's d4 means they have a comparative advantage of three steps. If both get to spend karma on strength, a windling warrior is as strong as an obsidiman for all practical purposes, which feels very wrong to me. Needless to say, a vanilla windling beats the shit out of everybody as a nethermancer or wizard who gets to spend karma on spell damage.
As if that wasn't enough, their flying means they don't need meat shields in most combats. Of course the MC is free to introduce aerial threats specifically for the WL to worry about, but this exudes a distinct odor of bullshit if you do it more than once.
What I did was to make the karma die a straight d6 for everybody and reverse the karma pool sizes (obsidiman 60 ... down to windling 20). A 900-pound block of stone is much easier for me to imagine as a near-bottomless reservoir of magical power than a teeny little imp.
Dunno if ED3 addressed this issue.
As characters progress, they eventually get to spend karma on pretty much every roll that matters. A windling's d10 karma die compared to a troll's d4 means they have a comparative advantage of three steps. If both get to spend karma on strength, a windling warrior is as strong as an obsidiman for all practical purposes, which feels very wrong to me. Needless to say, a vanilla windling beats the shit out of everybody as a nethermancer or wizard who gets to spend karma on spell damage.
As if that wasn't enough, their flying means they don't need meat shields in most combats. Of course the MC is free to introduce aerial threats specifically for the WL to worry about, but this exudes a distinct odor of bullshit if you do it more than once.
What I did was to make the karma die a straight d6 for everybody and reverse the karma pool sizes (obsidiman 60 ... down to windling 20). A 900-pound block of stone is much easier for me to imagine as a near-bottomless reservoir of magical power than a teeny little imp.
Dunno if ED3 addressed this issue.
the toys go winding down.
- Primus
- Primus
I should have included an explanation in my post... 
The Nethermancer spell is powerful, but it's more of a plot device than anything else--a classic doomsday weapon scenario. The resurrection ability and the Matrix Strike talent are beyond what a D&D Fighter is able to do. I would rather play a high-circle Warrior or Swordmaster in ED than a high-level Fighter in D&D, even if casters still have an edge.
The Nethermancer spell is powerful, but it's more of a plot device than anything else--a classic doomsday weapon scenario. The resurrection ability and the Matrix Strike talent are beyond what a D&D Fighter is able to do. I would rather play a high-circle Warrior or Swordmaster in ED than a high-level Fighter in D&D, even if casters still have an edge.
@Tenuki: In ED3 every race has a d6 Karma Die. The only difference is their pool multiplier. So you pretty much did the same they did.
And the pool is 'Karma Ritual level x racial multiplier', so Windlings still have more Karma, but it's only as powerful as any other Namegiver.
@JongWK: Spells become scarce above 6th circle. Getting them is usually a story theme, or a huge risk. You can trade them, but that's not as easy as it sounds. You can have lots of lower level spells, but as soon as you hit mastery, you'll probably have to make your own spells, or scavenge old kaers for pre-Scourge ones. I don't know which one is more difficult.
As for Warriors, and other non-magical types, they have it easier, especially Warriors, who at Master circles become a weapon on their own.
And the pool is 'Karma Ritual level x racial multiplier', so Windlings still have more Karma, but it's only as powerful as any other Namegiver.
@JongWK: Spells become scarce above 6th circle. Getting them is usually a story theme, or a huge risk. You can trade them, but that's not as easy as it sounds. You can have lots of lower level spells, but as soon as you hit mastery, you'll probably have to make your own spells, or scavenge old kaers for pre-Scourge ones. I don't know which one is more difficult.
As for Warriors, and other non-magical types, they have it easier, especially Warriors, who at Master circles become a weapon on their own.
Last edited by Kot on Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
Call Forth the Army of Decay is certainly spectacular but it's far from being a threat to Circle-appropriate opposition.
I just recently went through the whole spell list and found maybe two dozen spells that are worth using on a regular basis and none of those are higher than Circle 9.
One thing I have noticed is that the multi-classing system heavily favours magicians but I'm not sure that is really a big problem. Magicians don't gain much in the way of new shticks by multi-classing, just a few more spells.
I just recently went through the whole spell list and found maybe two dozen spells that are worth using on a regular basis and none of those are higher than Circle 9.
One thing I have noticed is that the multi-classing system heavily favours magicians but I'm not sure that is really a big problem. Magicians don't gain much in the way of new shticks by multi-classing, just a few more spells.
Trust The Computer, The Computer is your friend.
Most of the non-shared magician talents fuel only the discipline in question. There are some that are a good boost, like Summoning, or the one that lets you see through illusions, but most are just something that applies to the second discipline only. And there's the philosophy&path conflict problem with magician disciplines.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
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Ancient History
- Serious Badass
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There's more to multi-disciplines than just the talents, if you go into a couple of the supplements, because of the ability to access talent knacks, half-magic, and multi-discipline spells. The main enchanters of the game are, in order, Elementalist, Nethermancer, Weaponsmith then all the other spell-slingers. A wizard that dabbles in elementalism or nethermancy is generally a good move. Horror Hunters benefit from also being Nethermancers (mainly because Horror Hunters on their own suck and will probably die).
And then there's weird stuff like being a Lightbearer or Questor - for those at home who have no idea what I'm talking about, the Lightbearers are a seeecret organization with access to a unique set of powers for dealing with horrors, and each of the Passions (sort of like gods) in the setting has its Questors - sort of like a cross between a cleric and a paladin - and each Questor gains specific powers depending on the Passion they quest for.
And then there's weird stuff like being a Lightbearer or Questor - for those at home who have no idea what I'm talking about, the Lightbearers are a seeecret organization with access to a unique set of powers for dealing with horrors, and each of the Passions (sort of like gods) in the setting has its Questors - sort of like a cross between a cleric and a paladin - and each Questor gains specific powers depending on the Passion they quest for.
And you pick the Passion by the ideal it upholds. Looking on it by powers, probably only Thystonius and Garlen are worthwhile. Thystonius for combat power, and Garlen for healing. Some others might be useful in off-game time, like barter and wealth related powers, or ones that improve artisan or art skills.
ED3 fixed that a bit. Now enchanting is a bit more coherent:
-Alchemy for potions and blood charms
-Thread Weaving talent knacks for making regular magic items (zippo wand, coldproof cloak), threaded magic items (the +x sword, or armor, or protective amulet, or useful tool-like item), and different types of spell matrices (magic filters that let you cast spells without a huge risk). And the last one is just making an item that essentially works just as the Talent in question, only having a physical counterpart.
-Infusing with Elemental Essences for Elementalists and Weaponsmiths only. They can make regular magic items this way IIRC, and make other items easier.
-Weapon and Armor (master-circle Talent) improvement for Weaponsmith. It's basically a +x to damage for a year and a day since the last time it was done.
-Anyone with a proper knack can also make a spell permanent, possibly enchanting an item with it (not sure if this works that way, but it sounds cool). For example, you could cast a spell that raises magical defense on a shield, and make it permanent, so anyone who uses that shield gets the bonus. Again, it might not work that way, instead working only on the item. But it would be very cool if it does work.
As for Horror Stalkers, having played one I agree with Ancient on this one. They're not solo-players. They need at least cannon fodders, and at best reliable allies, like spellcasters, fighters, and support specialists. Hunting a Horror on your own means you'll die at best, and will become it's puppet at worst. Even though the Stalker has powers that counteract this, they're not sure to succeed... But the Discipline is interesting. From a dark, brooding hero obsessed with revenge, to a paladin-turned-monster-hunter idealists. Off course, the first one makes most of the Discipline. Earthdawn can be pretty dark and grim, when you delve into the Horror theme...
ED3 fixed that a bit. Now enchanting is a bit more coherent:
-Alchemy for potions and blood charms
-Thread Weaving talent knacks for making regular magic items (zippo wand, coldproof cloak), threaded magic items (the +x sword, or armor, or protective amulet, or useful tool-like item), and different types of spell matrices (magic filters that let you cast spells without a huge risk). And the last one is just making an item that essentially works just as the Talent in question, only having a physical counterpart.
-Infusing with Elemental Essences for Elementalists and Weaponsmiths only. They can make regular magic items this way IIRC, and make other items easier.
-Weapon and Armor (master-circle Talent) improvement for Weaponsmith. It's basically a +x to damage for a year and a day since the last time it was done.
-Anyone with a proper knack can also make a spell permanent, possibly enchanting an item with it (not sure if this works that way, but it sounds cool). For example, you could cast a spell that raises magical defense on a shield, and make it permanent, so anyone who uses that shield gets the bonus. Again, it might not work that way, instead working only on the item. But it would be very cool if it does work.
As for Horror Stalkers, having played one I agree with Ancient on this one. They're not solo-players. They need at least cannon fodders, and at best reliable allies, like spellcasters, fighters, and support specialists. Hunting a Horror on your own means you'll die at best, and will become it's puppet at worst. Even though the Stalker has powers that counteract this, they're not sure to succeed... But the Discipline is interesting. From a dark, brooding hero obsessed with revenge, to a paladin-turned-monster-hunter idealists. Off course, the first one makes most of the Discipline. Earthdawn can be pretty dark and grim, when you delve into the Horror theme...
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
For the folks at home a clarification:
Weapon boosting lasts a year and a day and is a first circle ability of the weaponsmith, generally adding +2 to +4 to a weapon depending on how much you want to pay (possibly more, but it gets very expensive). A weapon can't be more than doubled in damage this way, giving an edge to larger weapons.
Armor boosting is similar (boosted armor soaks more damage) but is a Master level talent instead.
Weapon boosting lasts a year and a day and is a first circle ability of the weaponsmith, generally adding +2 to +4 to a weapon depending on how much you want to pay (possibly more, but it gets very expensive). A weapon can't be more than doubled in damage this way, giving an edge to larger weapons.
Armor boosting is similar (boosted armor soaks more damage) but is a Master level talent instead.
Clarification of the clarification: The max amount of times you can boost it is equal to the lower of: weapon size, or weapon damage. So with a polearm (a glaive for example) that has size 6 and damage step 8 you could get +6 max, giving you a total damage step of 14, plus your Strength step (which has to be around 7-8, taking the requirements for the weapon in mind), that's 21-22, a huge amount if you compare it to a regular man (Strength step 5) with a regular sword (damage step 5).
And you can take permanent damage to make the boost lasting, or enchant the weapon (to do so you must have it boosted to the max. value available) - the first level of enchantment (you buy them with 'experience',) allows you access to the boost only, but in case of a generic weapon you can have as many as 4-5 levels of enchantment, and they're probably only boosting the damage further, up to 24-25. That's 2d12+2d8 or 2d12+d10+d8. Now, remember those dice explode, and that a regular human has a death rating of ~30 and armor (which soaks damage) below 5. Ouch...
And, if you play an Obsidiman or Troll mage, you can carry one around without any problem (except for it's overall bulkiness and threatening nature, but that's all)...
And you can take permanent damage to make the boost lasting, or enchant the weapon (to do so you must have it boosted to the max. value available) - the first level of enchantment (you buy them with 'experience',) allows you access to the boost only, but in case of a generic weapon you can have as many as 4-5 levels of enchantment, and they're probably only boosting the damage further, up to 24-25. That's 2d12+2d8 or 2d12+d10+d8. Now, remember those dice explode, and that a regular human has a death rating of ~30 and armor (which soaks damage) below 5. Ouch...
And, if you play an Obsidiman or Troll mage, you can carry one around without any problem (except for it's overall bulkiness and threatening nature, but that's all)...
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
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Stahlseele
- King
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- Location: Hamburg, Germany
As if a glaive would make a Troll/Obsidian Mage more Bulky/Threatening . .
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
Wouldn't it? That's about 5 meters of hardwood and steel edge, if we take proportions into account...
I'd say something about compensating, but the Obsidimen don't really have to... And saying that about a troll would probably be an insult to all three of his honors.
I'd say something about compensating, but the Obsidimen don't really have to... And saying that about a troll would probably be an insult to all three of his honors.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
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Stahlseele
- King
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- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:51 pm
- Location: Hamburg, Germany
You are a 3m Tall Muscle and Armor Being with Magic. There ain't much that CAN make you more threatening usually ^^
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Lord_Dathus
- NPC
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I've been playing ED for over 10 years, and I really can't criticize people's criticism or attempt to defend the Step System. There's nothing wrong with it, but the popularity and sales numbers of ED over the years really speaks for itself. I personally enjoy it, but it's quite obviously not every gamer's cup of tea.
With THAT being said, RedBrick has announced that although ED3 is continuing, Earthdawn is also being ported over to both the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game System as well as Savage Worlds.
SO... if you are somewhat intrigued by the setting but find the Step System dubious and cumbersome, check out either of those versions once they come out (within the next couple of months).
http://redbrickllc.com/forums/index.php
With THAT being said, RedBrick has announced that although ED3 is continuing, Earthdawn is also being ported over to both the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game System as well as Savage Worlds.
SO... if you are somewhat intrigued by the setting but find the Step System dubious and cumbersome, check out either of those versions once they come out (within the next couple of months).
http://redbrickllc.com/forums/index.php
Yeah, but they lost their line developer for ED lately, and admitted that they don't have the slightest idea what to do with the system at all. They already announced a port to DnD 4ed way back, and off course, never did anything with it. So I don't really think they will. Especially because porting ED to a system like Pathfinder or Savage Worlds would be a lot more difficult than coming up with a brand new set of rules that fit the setting altogether.
And yes, I'm becoming more and more disillusioned when it comes to Earthdawn. I admitted the game will never be popular, despite it's strong points, probably because of those points even...
And yes, I'm becoming more and more disillusioned when it comes to Earthdawn. I admitted the game will never be popular, despite it's strong points, probably because of those points even...
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
Every single one.
Seriously. They're all full of useful things, overflowing with fluff, and such.
But if you need the bare minimum, it's these two:
The Player's Guide is basic mechanics and some fluff associated with it mostly. You need this to play at all.
The Gamemaster's Guide is the same for a GM, but has a significant amount of setting info - history, geography, politics, culture, economics, and so on.
You can expand your game by acquiring the next two core rulebooks. Their content is mainly targeted at high-circle campaigns, but you can't really play without them if you want your players to experience Earthdawn in full - rules for Questors, talent knacks, enchanting, and so on are crammed into these, probably because they wouldn't fit into the above two corebooks.
The Player's Companion is basically The Adept's Way and Companion from ED1 (in-depth discipline info and high-circle rules), plus talent knacks, enchanting, high-circle magic, and Questors.
The Gamemaster's Companion includes astral space and blood magic rules, healing aids, Artifacts and the guidelines for creating uncommon magical items, airship&riverboat rules, ready-to-use-and-modify NPC's, more powerful creatures, Great Dragons, Named Horrors and the rules to create your own creatures and disciplines.
From the other books the one you'd probably need is the Namegivers of Barsaive book - it's a must-have, because most of the world's fluff is either here, or in the Player's Compendium (the Discipline path descriptions for example).
You could go for the Nations of Barsaive books: Throal, Crystal Raiders, Ork Nations. Or the Kratas citybook. There are some good adventures to get, like Ardanyan's Revenge, or Burning Desires also...
But to be honest, if you remember the old Earthdawn 1st edition, two basic rulebooks and some peeking into the more common rules stuff (questors, talent knacks) would suffice. The storyline was advanced to post-Prelude to War times, but the history was updated with it also.
Seriously. They're all full of useful things, overflowing with fluff, and such.
But if you need the bare minimum, it's these two:
The Player's Guide is basic mechanics and some fluff associated with it mostly. You need this to play at all.
The Gamemaster's Guide is the same for a GM, but has a significant amount of setting info - history, geography, politics, culture, economics, and so on.
You can expand your game by acquiring the next two core rulebooks. Their content is mainly targeted at high-circle campaigns, but you can't really play without them if you want your players to experience Earthdawn in full - rules for Questors, talent knacks, enchanting, and so on are crammed into these, probably because they wouldn't fit into the above two corebooks.
The Player's Companion is basically The Adept's Way and Companion from ED1 (in-depth discipline info and high-circle rules), plus talent knacks, enchanting, high-circle magic, and Questors.
The Gamemaster's Companion includes astral space and blood magic rules, healing aids, Artifacts and the guidelines for creating uncommon magical items, airship&riverboat rules, ready-to-use-and-modify NPC's, more powerful creatures, Great Dragons, Named Horrors and the rules to create your own creatures and disciplines.
From the other books the one you'd probably need is the Namegivers of Barsaive book - it's a must-have, because most of the world's fluff is either here, or in the Player's Compendium (the Discipline path descriptions for example).
You could go for the Nations of Barsaive books: Throal, Crystal Raiders, Ork Nations. Or the Kratas citybook. There are some good adventures to get, like Ardanyan's Revenge, or Burning Desires also...
But to be honest, if you remember the old Earthdawn 1st edition, two basic rulebooks and some peeking into the more common rules stuff (questors, talent knacks) would suffice. The storyline was advanced to post-Prelude to War times, but the history was updated with it also.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
The article on Step System probabilities is up:
http://www.loremerchant.com/?page_id=51
And they've just announced a lot of stuff. Including a 'revised edition', and the recent breakup of the team... So I'm revising my opinion, and deciding to stay the hell away from RB. I have enough books from both ED1 and ED3 to play...
http://www.loremerchant.com/?page_id=51
And they've just announced a lot of stuff. Including a 'revised edition', and the recent breakup of the team... So I'm revising my opinion, and deciding to stay the hell away from RB. I have enough books from both ED1 and ED3 to play...
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
Yeah. Casrsten Damm left RB, along with Kathy Shad apparently. So they had to find a new line editor and they can't use Kathy's artwork in the 'revised 3rd edition' they want to release... In july, because they've dropped Mongoose as publisher, before their contract expired, and they have to wait till it happens. Basically, I've lost all hope for any storyline update, or new books. And I don't really like Laubenstein's art, so I'm not going to be satisfied with his return (he's supposed to replace Kathy Schad as art coordinator).
Bah... Not worth the wordcount.
Bah... Not worth the wordcount.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."
"The only way to keep them in line is to bury them in a row..."