Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[Catharz]

You make powerful creatures incredibly rare, aligned, and give them the seats of power they probably want. So the most powerful nations are ruled by titans and dragons (hopefully in a setting such as this, most outsiders are kept on a tight leash).

Assuming deities have a reason for granting powers, they'll probably be at the heads of theocracies. Why worry about the dangers of the material plane when no mortal can even come close to your power?

And this means that all those 6th level characters are incidental to the real power plays. The only thing a dragon will get from razing a deity's cities is a showdown with a pissed off god. It also means that you can survive just fine, because your god needs worshipers and your dragon king wants to spread good (or evil), and likes the shiny tribute you bring.


[edit]
For all the wrong reasons: The rules are dumb. How did this come to be?
[/edit]

[Username17]

1183141883[/unixtime]]

The problem, as far as I am concerned, is that it shoots to hell the internal consistency of the setting. How do people survive in a world where your greatest hero can barely defeat a Fire Giant and there are seriously Titans around? There is only so far that ganging up will take you in D&D

Well, there are a couple of ways you can address that, none of which the original author gives any thought to at all.

• The first and most obvious one is to simply make everything of CR 11+ into a legendary critter that may not even exist. No Titans, no problems. Heck, even if there is a Great Wyrm somewhere, there's just the one of it so it's basically a plot device. And plot devices can be countered by... other plot devices.
  
  
• The second way of handling it is to hand out in-game ways to pump up badassery for limited periods of time. If large groups of wizards can come together and cast binding then the occassional Gelugon could actually be handled by the world at large.
  
  
• And finally, you could just let the players go "all crazy" with in-game wish economy bullshit that is available to characters below 6th level. Human Sacrifice, Candles of Invocation, dogs and cats, living together, mass hysteria.

But yeah, the original discussion is worthless because as far as I can tell the author does not even realize that such choices are possible, let alone necessarry.

-Username17

[Amra]

I don't think that's so much the issue: after all, you can simply say that anything above, say, CR12 just out-and-out doesn't exist and there's nothing higher than a 3rd-level spell available to anyone. This does solve a whole load of problems outright, although it causes some others.

I actually really like the idea, although I can see quite a few difficulties over the long term. The advancement/XP rules get very awkward later on... When is a CR6 encounter not a CR6 encounter? When the NPC you're fighting has an arbitrarily large number of feats. That ancient dragon you're fighting has the same stats as a CR12 dragon in the "normal" game but has advanced to have an assload of feats. This really means it's not CR12 any more, but then you're not really 6th level because you too have a crap-ton of feats.

How do you keep track of how many extra feats is fair for NPC's to have? Well, you look at the XP total of the players and see how many they have and... hang on a minute, this is still advancement, isn't it?!

You'd also have to forget many of your favourite magic items or change the prerequisites for several item creation feats. Not that there'd be any Wizards around making stuff because everyone who wanted to be an Arcane caster would be a Sorceror or Warmage or Beguiler, taking the Extra Spell feat like crazy for every 5,000XP...

Except they wouldn't, because they'd all be Clerics with Divine Metamagic; the only way left in such a scenario to wield some real magical power.

I think for it to work, you'd have to just... you know, actually *stop* advancement at some level, not just change it by awarding feats; that will give you real problems later on. This approach also out-and-out eliminates most prestige classes, but that ain't necessarily a bad thing.

Interesting idea, but the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that you can't fix D&D with any paradigm that allows for infinite accretion of personal power.

[tzor]

1183142732[/unixtime]]
For all the wrong reasons: The rules are dumb. How did this come to be?

Oh great joy within the first few posts we get the dreaded, "Why do old people in D&D see & hear better?" If it wasn't for the fact that they be idiots in there, I'd be more than happy to QED it for them. The actual fact is that most people actually get more far sighted as they age. Most (if not all) vision damage in old age comes from disease, and most (if not all) hearing loss comes from unhealed damage to the inner ear.

[Amra]

1183143361[/unixtime]]The first and most obvious one is to simply make everything of CR 11+ into a legendary critter that may not even exist. No Titans, no problems. Heck, even if there is a Great Wyrm somewhere, there's just the one of it so it's basically a plot device. And plot devices can be countered by... other plot devices.

Sorry about reproducing that point; went away and ate something in-between the start and finish of my post so I hadn't seen this.

On the "wish economy bullshit" problem, I guess it depends whether you're saying "players can't get access to higher than 3rd-level spells" or "there are no spells higher than 3rd level". If nobody can cast a wish, that all goes away because nobody can make an item that casts a wish and it won't exist as a spell-like ability either. Same applies to a lot of other game-breaking items and effects: if nobody has a high enough caster level to make them, the cycle of horror never begins in the first place.

EDIT: Another obvious point that I clean forgot to mention is that of character replacement. If all of your characters are 6th level and have, say, a dozen extra feats apiece; what happens when someone dies? Do you bring him back as 5th level? That's going to create a massive disparity and he's going to die again. And again. Or do you create him with, say, just 5,000 fewer XP than the other party members? That's going to be open to some serious abuse because creating a character that starts with a bad-ass feat chain is in no way the same as having to play through it from scratch.

[Username17]

Aah. The "rules are dumb" thread hurt my brain. People griping about weird edge case bullshit when there's big problems like "why do people accept gold as currency?" and "why do fighters suck monkey ass?" to tide us over.

---

Anyway, on the E6 thing. The guy doesn't actually specify that 4th level spells don't exist. Indeed, he seems to be suggesting that CR 6+ creatures do, in fact, exist. And if they have 4th level spells (or SLAs), then whatever. Efreet are well within the CR guidelines he was mentioning, so I'm not super clear on how it's supposed to keep people out of the Wish Economy.

The big problem from a game balance POV is that while it stops bonus accumulation dead cold on warriors and generally keeps Save or Die spells within a certain range - it genuinely does less than nothing to reign in a Diplomancer or Evoker. Indeed, if you offered one of those character archetypes the ability to trade levels for feats they might well take you up on it.

Seriously, would a ray specialist be super unhappy getting a feat that gave +1 Spellcaster level to [fire] spells and some other incidental bonus? How about Sudden Maximize? An Evoker can straight up increase their damage nova every time they get a feat. A Diplomancer can improve their Diplomacy check every time they get a feat as well. These guys actually will push themselves off the RNG while Barbarians and Battlefield Control mages seriously won't.

-Username17

[bitnine]

[T]he things you gave were from 3rd party books and are therefore overpowered as compared to the existing stuff. WoTC DM's would not accept them.

Emphasis mine. I don't even care about the actual point of this statement - I find its very form to be nearly jaw-dropping. I am unsure what process of thought could accept this as a path of induction and remain lucid enough to use the word "therefore".

Seriously. A formal analog to the above might be something along the lines of "The things you mentioned were from a third party source, therefore [10 times better] as compared to existing material. WotC's designers [lack the immaculate brilliance] to craft such material."

Hell, it makes me want to write a book of ridiculous statement mad-libs.

[Maj]

[Neeek]

Before the first time I encountered tarkin on the WotC boards, I went to a live game with some other WotC posters. One of them mentioned for some reason or other that they'd recently posted some original material, and specifically asked tarkin not to comment on it (he is very unfond of the guy). He did anyway. The rest of the players in the group ALL had some story or other about just how dumb or annoy the guy was.

I think I was better off not knowing.

[Amra]

1183150163[/unixtime]]Anyway, on the E6 thing. The guy doesn't actually specify that 4th level spells don't exist.

No, I know he doesn't - although he is explicit later on about characters not having access to any ability, ever, that isn't normally available by 6th level. I was suggesting that in order to make it work, one might reasonably just say "there are no spells or SLA's higher than 3rd level" as opposed to saying "the players can't get access to higher than 3rd-level spells".

Otherwise, I don't think it has a chance. Not that it does anyway...

1183150163[/unixtime]]Indeed, he seems to be suggesting that CR 6+ creatures do, in fact, exist. And if they have 4th level spells (or SLAs), then whatever. Efreet are well within the CR guidelines he was mentioning, so I'm not super clear on how it's supposed to keep people out of the Wish Economy.

The only way you could do it would be by saying that wish didn't exist; Efreeti's wouldn't get it either and that would be an end of it. Mind you, how you'd get an Efreeti to grant you a wish when nobody is high enough level to summon one or make an item that can do so is another matter...

1183150163[/unixtime]]The big problem from a game balance POV is that while it stops bonus accumulation dead cold on warriors and generally keeps Save or Die spells within a certain range - it genuinely does less than nothing to reign in a Diplomancer or Evoker. Indeed, if you offered one of those character archetypes the ability to trade levels for feats they might well take you up on it.

Absolutely. And in an environment when nobody is getting higher-level spells and the arms race is thus curtailed from the point of view of being able to get new tricks, it's even an advantage for this type of character.

1183150163[/unixtime]]Seriously, would a ray specialist be super unhappy getting a feat that gave +1 Spellcaster level to [fire] spells and some other incidental bonus?

I doubt it. In a world where you can't plan for the day when you're burning high-level slots for metamagic tomfoolery and you can't increase the number of spells you can cast per day, the reserve feats are even useful. That said, some of the contributors are suggesting that feats be allowed to increase spells per day and spells known *as though* they had levelled up, which is rather missing the point.

Unless the original author has some good ideas about how to handle CR and EL, it's all a bit pointless anyway. I think this approach still amounts to "spellcasters win, Clerics win bigtime".

1183150163[/unixtime]]How about Sudden Maximize? An Evoker can straight up increase their damage nova every time they get a feat. A Diplomancer can improve their Diplomacy check every time they get a feat as well. These guys actually will push themselves off the RNG while Barbarians and Battlefield Control mages seriously won't.

Uh-huh. All the fighter can do is keep getting Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation on an ever-increasing pile of crappy weapons (or just up his hit point total), whilst the damage-causing spellcasters can eventually Sudden Everything every spell they know.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Just for the record, a large number of "kick-ass feat chains" have BAB requirements, so the fighters are going to get hosed to some extent.

On a side note, I once played a game based loosely on second edition, the twist was that everyone has magic. Just one magic. As they leveled up, they gained new ways to use it. As the <primary magic ser that started out with the best magic and the lowest hit points/BAB> leveld up, they learned other magics.

For example, one character could create an 25 cubic feet of wood at will (in any un-occupied line-of-sight space, only 25 ft^2 in existance at any given time). In later levels, he learned how to make different materials, how to blend materials, and how to create more. This was the "fighter"-character, so the ability to constantly be armed was useful, and the ability to make ladders/poles/caltrops(level ~5)/whatever was handy to him. Also, this spawned creativity.

If you want to create a world where there is no-magic (or effectively very little), then you might as well give every caster an ability because they are going to take a reserve feat or something else that lets them magic all day because they will never get enough spells to last 2 encounters.

[Amra]

1183215798[/unixtime]]Just for the record, a large number of "kick-ass feat chains" have BAB requirements, so the fighters are going to get hosed to some extent.

Oh yeah, I don't think that's in question. My point about the potential abuse of feat chains was more to do with spellcasting. Fighters are never going to be running around with Robilar's Gambit, Melee Weapon Mastery and other higher-level fighter tricks because of the BAB requirements. Most of the good metamagic feats and similar tomfoolery merely require you to have other feats.

Normally this is self-limiting (in theory) because you can't *get* all those feats before a certain level but the E6 approach means you'll eventually have the complete set at "6th level", for a given value of "6th level".

[RandomCasualty]

1183206454[/unixtime]]
Unless the original author has some good ideas about how to handle CR and EL, it's all a bit pointless anyway. I think this approach still amounts to "spellcasters win, Clerics win bigtime".

What else is new?

At the very least they probably win a bit less than usual, since they never get spells above 3rd level.

As far as the sudden meta feats go, I'd definitely limit it to one sudden metamagic feat per spell. Just so you don't get the PCs getting completely TPKed by an NPC wizard.

When your sole means of advancing hp past 6th level is toughness, having maximized empowered fireballs doesn't fit well at all.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

Oh great joy within the first few posts we get the dreaded, "Why do old people in D&D see & hear better?"

…And it hits the Oberoni Fallacy by a near-record third post.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Random, don't forget that while you are casting those Maximized fireballs, you are working towards Sudden Quicken. Being the only caster in the universe that can sling 2 spells in a round will be game-breaking.

[Fwib]

This seems a pretty odd thread.. apparently, the OP wants advice on how best to deceive his friend into thinking that a monk could beat a wizard in a fight. ... I think.

I must apologise for my weakness in actually replying to him a second time.

[edit] Ahhh... it seems that the OP does in fact intend to beat the monk. Some people (like me) find it hard to express themselves in writing, so I can live with my confusion on the intent.

[SeanKitty]

It actually made my brain hurt. I don't know why I let myself read that. Honestly, why did I read that?

Wizard > Monk. Simple as that. I fail to see the arguement there. I'm probably the rare case when it comes to liking the 3.5 monk (Yeah, I'm likely young and naive), but I know for a fact that the Wizard has more options available that can hand my monk-liking butt to me. Done and Double Done.

[Username17]

The key is that the person is conceding a bunch of options so that the Monk player can keep up with what is going on. And he wants to know what he can do, given his restricted option set that will make him beat the Monk.

So it's a flow chart:

• If the Monk wins Initiative, then the Monk has one action to charge across the field and grapple the wizard. If he fails, then the Wizard takes a 5' step back and we proceed to step two. If he succeeds then the Wizard has to cast dimension door to escape the Grapple and we proceed to step 2.
  
  
• If the Wizard wins Initiative, avoids the grapple, escapes the grapple, or wins the initial grapple check, then the Wizard gets the opportunity to cast a spell. That spell will be wall of stone, made into an igloo around the monk with a tiny hole in the top. Then the Monk will try to get out and fail and the Wizard will cast cloud kill on the hole and walk away whistling.

-Username17

[MrWaeseL]

Also "no prep time". What?
So I'm not allowed to cast Mage Armor on the day of the fight just after I wake up?

[Amra]

1183309578[/unixtime]]The key is that the person is conceding a bunch of options so that the Monk player can keep up with what is going on. And he wants to know what he can do, given his restricted option set that will make him beat the Monk.

And he has conceded so many options that his Wizard can no longer do what Wizards do, which is "prepare". A Wizard with no equipment and no pre-cast spells is allowing himself to be locked in a closet with a troll and as such has a good chance of having his ass handed to him.

What the fvck is that supposed to prove, by all the evil gods?

1183309578[/unixtime]]So it's a flow chart:

• If the Monk wins Initiative, then the Monk has one action to charge across the field and grapple the wizard. If he fails, then the Wizard takes a 5' step back and we proceed to step two. If he succeeds then the Wizard has to cast dimension door to escape the Grapple and we proceed to step 2.

Or the Monk charges the Wizard and hits him with a Stunning Fist DC19 (or more), the Wizard fails his save, is stunned, loses.

We also don't know enough about the arena to say what's what. If the Wizard gets grappled instead of stunned and casts Dimension Door but the arena is only 120' across he has only bought himself another opportunity to fail his save vs. Stunning Fist or get caught in a grapple.

1183309578[/unixtime]][*] If the Wizard wins Initiative, avoids the grapple, escapes the grapple, or wins the initial grapple check, then the Wizard gets the opportunity to cast a spell. That spell will be wall of stone, made into an igloo around the monk with a tiny hole in the top. Then the Monk will try to get out and fail and the Wizard will cast cloud kill on the hole and walk away whistling.[/list]

First off, from the sound of things the arena won't have anything as useful as a stone floor if this tactic occurs to the DM. Secondly, the Monk will like as not make his Reflex save to avoid becoming trapped by the wall. This not-a-real-Wizard doesn't have any scrolls and has only 2 or 3 5th-level spells so this ain't a tactic that can afford to fail more than once.

I can't see an easy way - with PHB only - that the Wizard is *definitely* going to win this fight. The OP has voluntarily given up most of the things that make a Wizard awesome - or even that make a Wizard wizardly - and volunteered to be put into a first-to-intiative situation with a closet troll. He can't summon help, he can't change shape, he can't have any pre-cast spells or magic items and he doesn't know anything about the arena he's going into.

He may well still win, but whether he does or not, nothing will be proven by the exercise other than "If you take away all of a Wizard's magical items, his pre-cast spells, half of his spell-list and his charmed/dominated meatshields then he doesn't have a 100% chance of beating a Monk of similar level in a fight."

[User3]

There's nothing like the classics (more appropriate thread title added by me):

Paladins can't DO that!

[Amra]

Ah, the old ones are the best, sure enough!

[Leress]

Non Lawful Monks: an alignment thread

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.p ... 304&page=1

[shirak]

Damn you Fwib, I was going to post that!


Oh, well. Take this thread on Eberron Artificers and watch me trying to convince people that Artificers can indeed do what the book says they can do. The more time I spend arguing over there, the more I start to hate RPG.net. WTF is wrong with some of these people?

[shirak]

On Paladins: Guest, you are the guy who suggested Terry Pratchett, neh? Cool thread but they need to read the rules a bit.

Leress: How come you didn't post?

Btw, I loved this signature

MY Lifelong goal is to break a monk without using vow of poverty.