tzor at [unixtime wrote:1183473787[/unixtime]]
SunTzuWarmaster at [unixtime wrote:1183463286[/unixtime]]I think that a core class that:
-can only do one thing... mediocrely
-has no unique features
-has nothing noteworthy about it
-is good for 2 levels
is a good thing? Especially because it is just like real lifez!!!one11!
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=824217
That one definitely called for a rebuttal, even though it is old as dirt. And not really from a min/max perspective but from an old fart 1E player perspective. Since this is on Regdar’s Suppository I'll post my reply here.
my simple 'It's so easy even a caveman can make it' rebuttal wrote:You state you find the fighter “perfect,” yet at the same time you also state that “The fighter does what the class suggest. Fight. Even the biggest anti-fighter should agree with me that this is what the fighter does. I’m not saying he’s good at it, I’m not saying he’s bad at it. I am saying that the Fighter can’t do much else but fight.” That is the problem in a nutshell. If you have a class called the fighter and that class is supposed to be focused on fighting then they better be good at it.
The problem with the fighter class is at the core everyone is an amateur fighter. Even the wizard can, on occasion, poke someone with a dagger.
[big snip]
A very nice post, and - for myself at least - somewhat coincidental timing as I've been thinking the exact same thing. I recently had a rant about the utter worthlessness of Fighters in the game to a roleplaying friend of mine. She listened patiently, nodded in all the right places, and said "So what can they do about it?"
I've been mulling over that one ever since. My immediate thoughts were of the Bad Old Days when - as you say - Fighters could do combat things that nobody else got to do.
I don't think that the correct way to go is to create a Fighter class that "balances" with the spellcaster because there's no way of doing that without giving him an assload of supernatural and/or spell-like abilities. Not that there's anything wrong with Fighters having some capabilities along those lines, but it shouldn't be what makes them Fighters.
No, I think that in this instance, backward may be the way forward and rather than heaping on the bonuses in an attempt at balance, the base mechanics need adjusting for everyone. What if iterative attacks from a high BAB maxed out at three instead of four? And what if the big class feature of the Fighter was that he picked up an extra attack at his highest bonus at third level and every six thereafter? So...
Fighter:
Level 1: +1
Level 3: +3/+3
Level 6: +6/+6/+1
Level 9: +9/+9/+9/+5
Level 11: +11/+11/+11/+6/+1
Level 15: +15/+15/+15/+15/+8/+3
Everyone else:
Level 1: +1
Level 6: +6/+1
Level 11: +11/+6/+1
Too much? Maybe, but I'm just thinking aloud at present; I'm not pretending these ideas are fully developed and it would just be a first step in any case. What about monsters? Well maybe iterative attacks from racial Hit Dice cap out at four; the really scary melee combatant monsters get most of their abilities from multiple natural attacks in any case.
This doesn't deal with people using Polymorph and Shapechange to take the form of creatures with multiple natural attacks... but on the other hand, that's a situation that badly needs fixing and I doubt there's any point trying to balance the Fighter with something so broken.
Another thing that occurred was the old 2e scenario of percentile strength with a score of 18; only Fighters got it. Perhaps only those with levels in Fighter or racial Hit Dice have the requisite skill to properly use their Strength in combat to get bonuses to hit? Say, for instance, everyone can properly use up to a +2 Strength bonus, but beyond that point they only get increased bonuses to damage from a high Strength?
Fighters could gain to-hit bonuses from a high Strength score in increments: say +1 at 2nd level and every three levels beyond, as a class feature.
So, their bonus to hit/damage from high Strength would work like this for a Fighter with Strength 18:
Level 1: +2/+4
Level 2: +3/+4
Level 5: +4/+4
Everyone else would get +2/+2.
And finally, a similar scenario with hit points; although this is a class feature I would expect other mainly-martial classes to share, and of course you'd get full benefit from all racial Hit Dice. Fighters can simply take more punishment than anyone else and get more benefit from a high Constitution score than other classes can derive. They gain an extra +1hp/level from a high Con at level 2, and one more point per two levels thereafter...
For a Fighter with Con 20:
Level 1: +2hp/level
Level 2: +3hp/level
Level 4: +4hp/level
Level 6: +5hp/level
Maybe that's not the way to go: maybe Fighters should just get a load of extra hit points per level regardless of Con, but my thinking is to withhold physical benefits from classes that don't spend their time training to gain them, rather than just ladling on extra bonuses for Fighters that other classes will just emulate in other ways.
The downside with the approach - almost - is that it ironically somewhat reduces MAD for other classes; if you can't benefit from a score higher than 16, there's no point pumping or buffing it any higher... but on the other hand, it means that the Fighter is going to get priority for those buffs and items because he'll be able to make the best use of them.
It's also going to screw over the Barbarian unless we give him a bonus attack or two and/or let him gain to-hit and Con bonuses as a Fighter of his level (or even uncapped) whilst raging... but that's OK. What of the Paladin? Give him some decent friggin' class abilities and access to the Con bonus, but leave the Fighter's to-hit from Strength and extra attacks the hell alone.
The numbers could all change, but what do y'all think about it as a principle?
