[Dom3] Oldest Profession Game On

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:53 am

I am profoundly confused right now, but at least I finally have a province with scouts, so hopefully that can be sorted out.

(Not at the location of the islands in question, now)

Gnosticism Is A Hoot · Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:40 pm

Well, damn. Thought I'd get home in time, didn't, turn stalled. Won't ask for a rollback though, as it's my fault.

K · Post by K » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:04 am

Sigh.

Where are all the Death gems at? I searched in all my provinces and got one site.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:49 am

Well, that was pretty much expected. Hello Pangaea, nice to see you on your feet again.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:14 pm

Ulm will state this very simply and clearly.

We are betrayed.

Ulm had just concluded a NAP-3 treaty with Hinnom. Hinnom rewarded our trust by immediately attacking one of our provinces.

You are a lying piece of shit and we will pursue this war to the finish. We will ignore all further communication from your wretched nation. We will simply kill you all.

You even tried to spread lies about Lanka, claiming that they had treacherously taken territory from you.

Our last diplomatic message from the lying shits of Hinnom, as follows:

Ikeren wrote:Confirming NAP 3, willing to confirm publicly if you like.

I have run into Dr. Praetor playing Abysia. I believe he is about to get the entire top left corner (+6 provinces over his current) uncontended.

Here's the situation:
We agreed to borders
K, Lanka, abruptly takes the provinces he agreed to give me.
We sit for a few turns
I realize the corner is empty, and am like "Hey, we can share."
Our armies run into each other; he wins (I kill 8 Sacreds, he kills a mercenary company, 6 ponies and 6 dawnguard).

He sends me a message being like "yo, you betrayed me"

My response;
Got messages too slowly, thought your last message would come back more friendly to sharing?

Again, I see you gaining 7-8 provinces in the corner, and feel like that will put you on a winning path, and thus, am mildly concerned. It also doesn't increase the number of people you're bordering with, and find that mildly concerning as well.

That being said, an early war would probably be mutually crippling. I'm willing to unhappily concede that corner entirely for a NAP-3. But to think that I'd let it go happily, when our agreement was premised on provinces that Lanka then promptly took?

Maybe it's just cause I'm new to the game and don't understand exactly what is supposed to go down in the diplomacy phase. If I was K, would I fight you for the corner, or concede it? If I conceded it, what would I ask for? Do I concede it and let you grow, and then try to entice a neighbour to try to beat you on one of those "he's the biggest" principle? Do I try to make you an ally and then go to the end with you, at which point, you win?

No, I don't want some early war. I think that's just going to set up us both up to lose. But I also don't want to set you up to a take-away victory, and I'm confused as to if letting you do this is doing that.
What's your advice in this situation? Cause I'm confused as fuck about how this part is supposed to work.

Playing innocent? Pretending to be confused and falsely accusing Lanka of breaking treaties?

Fuck that noise. Hinnom's words are nothing but lies.

If anyone wants to join in to kill these lying shits, we will honor any territory you take from them.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:41 pm

Now two different people have gotten their panties in a bunch because I failed to respond to their instant message between the time they sent it and the time I got back home. That is fucking ricockulous.

I thought this went without saying, but apparently it doesn't: if you send an instant message on a fucking internet forum, you have no right to expect a timely reply. And you are a fucking idiot if you expect to get a reply within a reply on complex issues within a couple of hours. People are shopping or going to class and work and stuff, they aren't even on the same time zone as you, and could easily be asleep.

Chances are 50/50 that you've looked at the turn before the guy you're talking to, so whatever questions or statements you're making quite likely won't even make sense to them when they receive it. Even if they have looked at the turn, there is no guaranty that they are reading the forum on the same computer as the one they play dominions on. They could be hours removed from the ability to even look at whatever the fuck situation you are talking about.

If you send an In Game Message, then you have a right to expect a reply in two turns. Because you know god damn well that the other guy received his message when he did his turn and that he was physically looking at the game map when the message arrived, and that he decided where to march all his tiny men and he could have fucking talked to you while he was doing it.

If you send any other form of communication, it is fucking unreasonable to get agitated if the other guy hasn't responded in a few hours. This is an asynchronous game, and people are not ignoring you if they don't respond in a few hours.

-Username17

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:51 pm

Um, what the flying fuck?

I somehow sent out orders that I didn't place? I set an army to build a fort and it instead attacked someone that I had signed a NAP with?

@Zinegata: Shit, I wish I had beat you to the punch on this. This game seems to make everyone overreact to hell.

Miss the part where I'm an incredible noob and this is my 3rd game ever; the other two of which are also running? I apologize, I'll concede whatever the hell you want and withdraw my armies.

K · Post by K » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:18 pm

I'm not entirely sure what is happening here, but I'd like to make it clear that I've honored all agreements made.

Heck, I even went so far as to telegraph my moves into provinces I was clearing of indies to avoid any unintentional meeting battles.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:54 am

Ikeren wrote:@Zinegata: Shit, I wish I had beat you to the punch on this. This game seems to make everyone overreact to hell.

Miss the part where I'm an incredible noob and this is my 3rd game ever; the other two of which are also running? I apologize, I'll concede whatever the hell you want and withdraw my armies.

If it was truly a mistake, then we demand an immediate withdrawal from Rivain (which should be free of PD), an immediate payment of 600 gold for the commanders you killed AND the lab they were building (which you had interrupted), and the demilitarization of both 111 and 94 (You may not place armies there, but you can put PDs for defense or commanders for building forts. You current army can withdraw to 113).

Then and only then will we reinstate the NAP-3.

Ulm has a zero tolerance policy against treachery regardless of player experience. While we understand that mistakes can be made, we also know that we cannot verify the truth behind your statements. Therefore we judge players by their actual actions.

So if you truly want peace, act and perform the three actions we require.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:14 am

K wrote:I'm not entirely sure what is happening here, but I'd like to make it clear that I've honored all agreements made.

Heck, I even went so far as to telegraph my moves into provinces I was clearing of indies to avoid any unintentional meeting battles.

We confirm Lanka's honorable conduct in all of its all transactions with Ulm, hence our surprise at Hinnom's claims.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:54 am

I sent an in character ultimatum. That offended Frank. I apologised and explained that I would appreciate an answer before I submitted my turn later today, that I would interpret no answer as a prelude to hostilities. He's still pissed and threatens to take some provinces then he might be interested in talking.

The disproportionate reponse makes me suspect he was planning on attacking anyway. I don't particularly care either way. As I explained, I needed to know his intent before I could complete my turn. Giving him a reason before attacking, an opportunity for diplo, was a courtesy.

Again, if you thought my message was abrubt or rude, I apologise. But I did not demand an immediate response from you. I simply informed you that I would interpret no reponse as hostile. Waiting 2 or 3 turns for an in-game message while an army is parked next to my territory would have been foolish.

If you want to make this a public issue, so be it. Tell everyone what an arsehole I am. I will not argue. This is all I have to say on the matter.

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:07 am

Now that I have a little bit more time to clarify:

You even tried to spread lies about Lanka, claiming that they had treacherously taken territory from you.

Here's the situation:
We agreed to borders
K, Lanka, abruptly takes the provinces he agreed to give me.
We sit for a few turns
I realize the corner is empty, and am like "Hey, we can share."
Our armies run into each other; he wins (I kill 8 Sacreds, he kills a mercenary company, 6 ponies and 6 dawnguard).

He sends me a message being like "yo, you betrayed me"

The ambiguous "he" in those lines was supposed to be Abysia. "He" (DrPraetor, playing Abysia) and I made an agreement that was immediately rendered irrelevant by a 3rd party (K, playing Lanka, who I didn't realize was that far to the left to need to be in on the negotiations).

So that would be why you think I'm spreading bad words about Lanka, which is just a misunderstanding. I was asking for advice in sorting out a better deal with Abysia than "fine, have everything you want."

If it was truly a mistake, then we demand an immediate withdrawal from Rivain (which should be free of PD), an immediate payment of 600 gold for the commanders you killed AND the lab they were building (which you had interrupted), and the demilitarization of both 111 and 94 (You may not place armies there, but you can put PDs for defense or commanders for building forts. You current army can withdraw to 113).

Then and only then will we reinstate the NAP-3.

Ulm has a zero tolerance policy against treachery regardless of player experience. While we understand that mistakes can be made, we also know that we cannot verify the truth behind your statements. Therefore we judge players by their actual actions.

So if you truly want peace, act and perform the three actions we require.

Immediate withdrawl from Ravain, free of PD: done
Immediate payment of 600 gold: Done
Removal of troops from 111 and 94: Done.

Mistakes happen, and this is sincere apologies.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:31 am

We will send someone to Rivain this turn to verify that it has been evacuated.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:34 am

Also, server seems to be borked.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:18 pm

Ikeren *assumed* that when we agreed on a border, if he was unable to actually get some of the territory I'd agreed to let him have (because Lanka took it first), that I'd be okay with him pushing back the border even though I didn't reply to his message to that effect - see also Frank's rant.

Frank - turn the timer off on the game? In fact, you probably want to suspend the game entirely until llamaserver is fixed; otherwise it might decide to host six times in a row, or something.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:26 pm

I temporarily set the host time to 100 hours, which may stop it from doing anything stupid. Not sure it will actually go through though, since the page isn't updating.

I'll set it back to 25 hours when it's back to updating regularly.

-Username17

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:28 pm

If there is an issue with the server, requiring a reboot, admin options will not take effect until after the server is up and running again. That assumes the changes are even logged.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:51 pm

I'll try to see what is going on with it tomorrow. No guarantees, because tomorrow I have to get a form stamped. That may not seem like a big deal, but you have to understand that I live in a Kafkaesque nightmare from which there is no respite besides death.

See the form needs to be stamped by the foreigners police. And to get it stamped, I need to pay a 75 cent fee. But they don't actually accept money there, I have to pay the fee across town at the post office and bring them a receipt. Then they don't actually make appointments at the foreigners police, it's first come, first served each day and there are literally Ukrainian mobsters who camp the lines in order to expedite people who are in good with them.

And then there's the little detail where despite the fact that I am getting married to a Czech citizen on Saturday, my Visa is not valid tomorrow (and can't be valid until after the foreigners police stamp my form). So if they decide to arrest me and put me in a jail cell, they could just do that. It would seriously be the third time they've put me in a prison cell over this sort of thing.

So... I'll see if I can get it going tomorrow. Unless I'm in a jail cell with a Mongolian picked up for drunk driving. Again.

It helps if you understand that the foreigners police is not there to police foreigners, or to be police for foreigners, or to navigate the complexities of law involving different countries and languages - it's seriously just there to come up with ways of making the country be a pain in the ass so that more foreigners will go away. Their actual mission statement is to be rude and baroque so as to reduce the number of foreigners who are in the country legally. They seriously quote a success that the number of foreigners working legally in the country has gone down by thirty thousand over the last three years (note: the number of foreigners actually in the country has not gone down).

-Username17

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:56 pm

I was under the perspective that the border agreement was conditional on me getting the provinces agreed upon. Given that that condition was not met, was there still a border agreement? Seems like you assumed that the agreement would hold even though one of the conditionals hadn't been met

. I mean, we can all through around the word assumed, but our agreement was insufficiently specific that we could both expect opposite things to occur given K's unexpected (by my part, at least) involvement.

It was more beneficial for you to expect me to adhere to an agreement where my side of the conditional was lost, thus you did. It was more beneficial for me to expect you to renegotiate or consider the agreement invalid, thus I did.

Either way, no harm done, and I'm not willing to go to war over it (though maybe you are?), though I am still moderately displeased about you having 6-8 more provinces to expand in unopposed in a corner. I'm not entirely certain how that affects the game balance, but it worries me.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:56 pm

Concratulation to you upcomming marriage!
(If you are not in jail.)

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:36 am

Ikeren - bollocks. When we struck that agreement, we both thought there was someone in the NW corner. If that NW corner player had taken province 99, would I then invade province 81 because the deal wasn't kept?

The agreement was, specifically "you can have X"; specifically to ensure that our expansion forces wouldn't collide; which they did anyway, because you broke the deal.

It's not my fault that you couldn't take 68+75 - I *could've* taken them and chose not to do so, saving them for you. So I kept up my end of the bargain. You didn't.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:13 am

Server seems to be fixed anyway. And yeah, admin actions did not take effect. Everyone got their turn in, so we'll just go forward as-is.

-Username17

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:56 am

@Praetor: I was under the impression you thought there was no-one in the NW corner. Either way; yes; had the NW corner player taken province 99, I think you would have been entirely justified in saying "Hey, that agreement we worked out isn't valid, let's renegotiate." I would have probably tried to say "No", at which point we would be having precisely the inverse of this discussion.

Either way, your getting the corner uncontested, but if we agree:
1) I get X
2) You get Y

and then I don't in fact get X, don't expect me to concede Y, even if the reason I don't get X has nothing to do with you.

Let's use an amusing analogy. Say I'm a Pony, and another pony says "Hey, if you help me paint this poster for rainbow and sunshine day, I'll give you a dozen cupcakes." and I say "sure, pass over the cupcakes." If at that moment, a bolt of lightning strikes the cupcakes, don't expect me to help you with your poster.

In this case; poster = north west corner, cupcakes = 68+75, and bolt of lightning = K.

Gnosticism Is A Hoot · Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:20 am

Ahh, Dom3 diplomacy drama. How I have missed you.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:49 pm

Ulm confirms the compliance of Hinnom in all of our demands.

Kanly is hereby rescinded and we reaffirm NAP-3 with them.

Please be more careful when issuing commands in the future.