Neo-Anarchism and friends: Questions about the Sixth World

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:06 pm

Oh certainly, but you STILL need to decide on what you want to do, BEFORE you go out and do it . . You don't want to have to switch from Sniper to SMG or the other way around while under fire, do you?

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:34 pm

Or just buy a few of them, and have them handy in all configurations.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:02 pm

At which point you might just have bought different/better/less expensive guns of different classes?

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:23 pm

53. Do Shadowrunners have a "Code," like how the Mafia has Omerta?

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:26 pm

As a group, no. And even in the Mafia, Omerta is...well, kind of a Hollywood thing. I take that shit to pieces in Vice.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:05 pm

Libertad wrote:53. Do Shadowrunners have a "Code," like how the Mafia has Omerta?

53.) Conserve Ammo. Never trust an Elf. Don't deal with Dragons.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:49 pm

@ 53 "Stay alive." Definitely.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:51 am

Some of them might have a specific code of conduct, but for most of them they don't have more code than anyone else, especially in the criminal world.

For example, many runners will carry out their missions, even if someone else is paying them twice the price to stop. It's not because there is a code, but because nobody will hire them if they behave like this. But saying it's a code make it looks cooler (and that's important in a world where it's 'Style over Substance') and sounds better for employers.

But of course, if they can get more money and get away with it with no hit for their reputation (or enough money so that their reputation doesn't matter anymore), they'll accept it.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:47 pm

54. Since Lone Star has all but replaced the police force in the UCAS and CAS, does this mean that Miranda Rights are now a thing of the past? Are Lone Star prisons and jails considered to be sovereign territory?

55. If a SINless person wanted to obtain a SIN legally, what would he have to do?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:44 pm

54.) as a Sinner you still have rights. but eh, even today those rights can be circumvented . .
55.) get a job with a corp. they issue their own SIN's.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:56 pm

56. I hope this isn't too provocative of the question, but why does some text in Shadowrun portray real-world racism (against black people, Hispanic people, etc.) as a thing of the past when sourcebooks describe pervasive racism against Koreans, Filipinos, and other "gaijin people" within the Japanese Imperial State? Did they just mean racism in North America? Did different authors have varying interpretations of Sixth World society?

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:35 pm

Different people wrote different stuff. Long story short is that ethnic hatred is far from dead, but the sudden appearance of metahumans was sort of a shock to the system. "Why worry about that brownish-looking guy when there's an eight-foot three hundred kilo thing with horns in the corner?"

That said, general tolerance with regards to African-Americans, Hispanics, women, homosexuals, transsexuals, etc. was increased just because most of the writers didn't want to offend their audience - but that varies entirely by author and dev. I wrote about an atypical Yakuza full of metahumans, women, and transexuals in Vice, David Hill wrote about you ghostbusting Jewish Holocaust victims in War!. Takes all kinds.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:17 am

54. The Lone Star/Knight Errant got the contract, but they still act like a public police force would. I'm pretty sure the prisons are still on the State's territory.

56. There are some places (Russia, for example) where people are more comfortable with local metahumans than with foreigners of the same metatype. A Hong-Kong Chinese human will also feel closer to a Hong-Kong Chinese troll than to a American human.

I think that, at first, replacing ethnic racism with metatype racism was a way to make the game more "politically correct", in line with the fictional swear words. Later on, some authors re-introduced ethnic racism because, let's face it, it wouldn't just disappear like this.

I guess there are also some cases where it makes sense. The general prejudice against Japanese in Korea or some places in China isn't just "they look different so I don't like them", same with Germans and Russians in Poland.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:49 am

@Blade: That depends. For some people that's old squabbles, and most intelligent Poles know that Germans suffered more than they ever should in the aftermath of WWII. With Russians it's more complicated, but again, most intelligent people don't despise Russians, but Russia as a country (or even as an oppressive force), that has a history of invading and enslaving their homeland. There's more bad blood, because Russia never admitted to slaughtering countless Polish people - a lot more than the nazis did (though they lost the war, and weren't given free reign over central and eastern Europe, so it's probably not the lack of effort on their part, just lack of time and resources) - and never even showed any kind of regret, not speaking of atonement (again - I'm not talking about Russians, because I know many who did that). But to be honest, they did so in every such case (and the mentioned 'intelligent Polish people' still shrug at any mention of their tanks on the streets of Prague, but don't pick up the subject).
Off course those people the outside world knows as 'stereotypical Poles' are xenophobic catholic hicks with a whipping boy complex fueled by their very culture (most of our 'national epics' tell the story of Poland being screwed over). And over fourty years of de facto Russian occupation didn't help (on both sides of the problem - the Germans were portrayed as the enemy by the red propaganda for the whole time)...

And I bet in Shadowrun's year 2071 the Russians are really hated, since Poland just managed to overthrow their occupation, thanks to the second crash. And all those people who have to pay for the profits that the Megacorps lost because of the euro wars and everything that happened afterwards have to blame their situation on someone. They even are right to a degree - the second (after the euro wars) Polish-Russian war in the sixth world was corp-driven, the Russians pretty much stepped in to protect megacorp interests.
That, plus Poland as a mostly catholic country (that doesn't seem to change much in SR, even if it should) is probably a bastion of meta-hate and xenophobic racism. Again, the blame is shifted by the angry and impoverished to something that stands up, and fueled by all kinds of extremists, most of them either ultranationalists, or catholic fundamentalists.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:50 pm

Kot wrote:There's more bad blood, because Russia never admitted to slaughtering countless Polish people - a lot more than the nazis did

That's... almost certainly not true.

The highest estimates I can find of Soviet war crimes in Poland put the death toll at around 2 million. And three quarters of that comes from people who were deported from the soviet Union controlled areas who subsequently did not survive the war (whose deaths, I would think, the Soviet Union would share at most 50% responsibility for - shared with whatever country they were deported into and/or whoever actually killed them). Even so, the Nazi crimes in Poland are epic in scale and considerably larger.

The only way you could get the numbers to be even vaguely close would be to not count the Polish Gypsies and Polish Jews as "Poles" for purposes of the comparison. And for obvious reasons, I don't think you want to go there.

-Username17

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:36 pm

I might be mistaken. I don't know the statistics well enough. To be honest, I don't think I want to...
But I live here. And I know my country's history. The end of WWII just made it possible for the soviets to do what they want. Hell, my own grandfather 'disappeared' just before my father was born, because he was in AK during the war. And that was in the 50's...
And yes, I do count all those people who died in gulags, and who just 'disappeared', which usually amounted to the same effect. Because those rare individuals who returned from there were at best only half alive. And yes again, I do count the Polish Jews, Gypsies, Ukrainians... Everyone who lived in Poland out of their own will was Polish, that's how it works.
The soviet war crimes didn't end in Poland. They just found Polish soviets to do their dirty work for them. That, and the fact that after Poland was divided between the third reich and the ussr many people were 'relocated' from previously Polish territories. Many of them ended up as the very statistics we're discussing.

I'm not going to argue, that's not the place for it (I'd probably lose the argument again anyway; I seem to have a habit of doing it). I shouldn't even have posted it in the first place - that was mostly off topic.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:24 pm

Libertad wrote:56. I hope this isn't too provocative of the question, but why does some text in Shadowrun portray real-world racism (against black people, Hispanic people, etc.) as a thing of the past when sourcebooks describe pervasive racism against Koreans, Filipinos, and other "gaijin people" within the Japanese Imperial State? Did they just mean racism in North America? Did different authors have varying interpretations of Sixth World society?

I think "Non-meta racism is a thing of the past...except for the Japanese" is sadly kind of implied here. I mean, to comment on the real-life racism of the Japanese is sadly, in itself, racist, but it's also to at least some small degree truth in television.

While it's certainly racist of me to say so, some ethnic groups really do tend to be more racist than others. But with the Japanese--especially the Yakuza, who are ultra-traditionalists and very fundie-like in a sense--it's very much a cultural ethnocentrism thing as well.

At the very least, "the Japanese are super racist/ethnocentric" is a well-worn and widely accepted fictional trope with some grounding in reality.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:42 am

This isn't the first time I've seen something like this. I saw in a Deadlands product that their alternate timeline of the Old West was more progressive, with racism being rare except among a very few black-hearted and hopelessly backwards people.

It seemed as though they only meant racism towards African-American and Hispanic people, because Chinese immigrants and Native Americans still suffered discrimination.

If you say that your RPG has almost no racists left, then there shouldn't be systemic racism in large, significant regions and nations in the campaign setting! Consistency, people!

57. What is the relationship between dragons and Great Dragons? Are Great Dragons simply more developed dragons, a separate breed, or an otherwise normal dragon granted power from an outside source?

58. Why is there few astral activity in outer space?

59. I read that the metahuman variants and non-standard sapient playable creatures had deliberately inflated BP value. Is there a more accurate list available?

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:27 am

Schwarzkopf wrote: I think "Non-meta racism is a thing of the past...except for the Japanese" is sadly kind of implied here. I mean, to comment on the real-life racism of the Japanese is sadly, in itself, racist, but it's also to at least some small degree truth in television.

THere are a a lot of very odd things that you have to accept about human nature to really buy into the SR "company line".

For example, what initially started the whole Tienaman Square events in China was a series of anti-African riots by Chinese students, which ultimately involved setting fire to the dorms of the African students, with the students locked inside. ... As another example, a common phrase used in Russia for dark skinned people is "chernozhopiy", which literally means 'black ass'. It is as derogatory as it sounds.

So the idea that in 60 years somehow only the Japanese have any racist impulses is kind of bizarre.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:33 am

57.) Great dragons are simply Older Dragons. Well, a bit more refined and advanced, but essentially.

58.) Because Magic/Mana needs life. Not much of that to be found out there . .

59.) The Costs for the MetaVariants and the new Sapients are listed in the SR4 Runners Companion Book. And yes, the prices are higher for them, than they SHOULD BE compared to what they would cost if you made them using surge parts . . This is to make clear that they are supposedly few and far between . . Rarity-Tax so to speak . . And the Metasapients costs are shot all to hell anyway, because they are pretty much arbitrarily set by the devs . . just like the costs for HMHVV and Drakes . .

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:28 pm

Stahlseele wrote:57.) Great dragons are simply Older Dragons. Well, a bit more refined and advanced, but essentially.

A bit more, actually. There's a power requirement, and a special ritual, AFAIR, and elevation to Great status doesn't happen if the not-yet-great dragon doesn't have a patron, because he can't get to that level without tutoring.
That, and, Great Dragons guard the eggs and young, which is a huge honor and responsibility in the dragon society.

Stahlseele wrote:58.) Because Magic/Mana needs life. Not much of that to be found out there .

Basically, yes. Manasphere is fueled by the Gaiasphere - the sum of all life (Street Magic page 114, and further). In space there's no life, and no mana, so it counts as a natural, high-count Mana Void (negative Background Count of 7+). There are a few corporate space stations with enough specially introduced plant life to support a weak manasphere zone, but it's just enough to count only as a Mana Ebb (negative BC of -6 to -1). I think Ares has their astral links to the Invae metaplane on such a station...

59.) Just ask Frank. He had a few rants on the topic before, and he was right. Most Runner's Companion metavariants and SURGE options are unbalanced and a bit silly. The Free Spirit and AI rules are outright ridiculous.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:50 am

60.) According to this Jet Set thread, there's a Dragon War going on. What's that about?

61.) Are meetings of the Corporate Court done face-to-face, or through electronic communication? Is there any reason Zurich-Orbital Headquarters is located in space other than an ego thing?

62.) Can metahumans of different types get married in the UCAS and CAS? I'd assume "yes," but fearmongering and Humanis shenanigans can put a damper on things.

63.) Seattle 2072 says that a Civil War has engulfed Tir Taingire, and that the monarchists were overthrown? Who is in charge of the government now, and what form of government do they want?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:35 am

60.: Dragon fappery has never made any sense and basically doesn't matter. Don't worry about it.

61.: ZO being in space keeps people from tampering with it by magic.

62.: Yes.

63.: No one knows. The Tir Tairngire government got overthrown at the beginning of 4th edition. That was supposed to be the kickoff point for a new plotline, but that line never got picked up and the people who wrote it in don't work there any more. The Tir Tairngire updating book got delayed for years and I think finally got canceled. So no one will ever know.

-Username17

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:06 pm

60.) Read Jet Set, Street Legends, or Conspiracy Theories for the low-down on this. The short version is that Hestaby and Lofwyr are super pissed at each other. Hestaby made a speech to the UN in which she let slip certain things that Lofwyr felt should be"just between us dragons". He responded, maybe, having her interpreter/translator, Eliot Eyes-of-Wyrm assassinated (it may have been a frame up). She responded to that by going godzilla on the Saeder-Krupp headquarters in Dubai, allegedly "without killing anyone" although that's highly dubious. Since then, both of them have been gathering other great dragons to their sides, but humanity is closely involved in the conflict. Hestaby's side could be seen as "pro-metahuman". Lofwyr's side is more like "humans need to remember their place". Against the backdrop of this, you've got Aztechnology (who are bad guys) mounting a pretty extreme global military search-and-destroy operation (totally justified) against the dragon Sirrurg, who is basically a dragon terrorist (and therefore an 'even worse' guy).

63.) Token Ork Larry Zincan is now the acting High Prince of the Tir. Lugh Surehand and co. want back in, but as long as Larry's alive and beloved of the people, that's probably not happening.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:11 pm

60.) Read Jet Set, Street Legends, or Conspiracy Theories for the low-down on this. The short version is that Hestaby and Lofwyr are super pissed at each other. Hestaby made a speech to the UN in which she let slip certain things that Lofwyr felt should be"just between us dragons". He responded, maybe, having her interpreter/translator, Eliot Eyes-of-Wyrm assassinated (it may have been a frame up). She responded to that by going godzilla on the Saeder-Krupp headquarters in Dubai, allegedly "without killing anyone" although that's highly dubious. Since then, both of them have been gathering other great dragons to their sides, but humanity is closely involved in the conflict. Hestaby's side could be seen as "pro-metahuman". Lofwyr's side is more like "humans need to remember their place". Against the backdrop of this, you've got Aztechnology mounting a pretty extreme search-and-destroy operation against the dragon Sirrurg, who is basically a terrorist.

That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. I am so glad I stopped reading CGL's vomit.

-Username17