Firearms in D&D: Thoughts?

[Winnah]

I have the collated rules and houserules on a .doc somewhere.

From memory, the damage of suppresive fire was minimal, covered a number of adjacent squares on the battle map, inflicted a penalty to attacks and could effectively be negated if the enemy took an immediate action to hide behind cover.

So a weapon that would normally deal 2d8 damage, would only inflict half that on a failed save. The major benefit was inflicting an attack penalty on the targets in the effected area and/or forcing them to keep their heads down and stop moving. Granted, it was not a particularly effective option against an enemy with a high attack bonus, but it was slightly effective at keeping a group of mooks behind cover, or a hallway clear.

[BearsAreBrown]

My only issue with treating Firearms as weapons that attack in cones/lines is that it's not clear if they're attacks. Is it an attack or a standard action? Can you sneak attack with a Shotgun? Does everyone take damage or just one?

And there is the problem that Shotguns simply don't fire in a 45 degree angle. Nor do most Cannon's reliably beeline a 5ft area for 100s of feet.

[Maxus]

And there is the problem that Shotguns simply don't fire in a 45 degree angle.

Yeah--they spread, just not as far as people think.

At 40 yards (what, like, 35 meters?) a shotgun's spread really can look like this:

http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/hunti ... el%20M.jpg

[tzor]

Being Old School, I still have a photocopy of the dragon article on firearms from back in first edition days as well as the companion article about canons in first edition.

As a part of the "shared multiverse campaign system" where people could port their characters from one R.P.I. campaign to another I had to deal with the non magical M16 of sharpness owned by Hugo the monk (who later became an Ice Devil) along with a whole damn mouth full of teeth of spell storing.

So I really have no problems with them whatsoever. Ironically I had more problems with hand crossbows and repeating crossbows than I have with medieval, colonial, and modern firearms.

Note the three categories, 18th and 19th century firearms are a category all of their own. A realistic treatment of rifles and muskets of that time period (adjusted for overall fitness to the general game flow system) would be an interesting adition to the standard fantasy game. (Most cannons of the time where more like bowling ball lobbers, knocking down whoever was in the way. That would strike fear in a green unit. An experienced person would say "there for the grace of god go I" and keep on moving forward.

Tecnical notes: A blunderbus could easily fire in a 45 degree angle. No modern weapons are designed to mimic such very short range weapons. The spread of a shotgun is based on the shotgun's choke.

Medieval weapons were heavily dependent on keeping powder dry, sotrage systems made that easier in colonial times. Still the number of potential misfires of a weapon were significant, even up to the civil war.

The difference between a rifle and a musket in colonial times is a basic tradeoff between speed and accuracy. It's a lot faster to load a wide barrel than it is a long and anrrow one. But the former causes the bullet not to be as accurate. This problem continued until you came to the era of cartridges which didn't fully happen until AFTER the civil war. At that point *BAM* you had what we now call the "wild west" era with the invention of the gattling gun, invented because one could load and fire a gun enough times that the barrel would start to dangerously overheat.

IMNSHO the biggest problem with pre-modern firearms is to avoid the katana effect. Firearms up to the invention of the modern firearm are not the magical mystical agents of death that people dream them to be. They were exceptionally deadly, but that was because compound fractures without modern medicine was exceptionally deadly. Throw in a modicum of magical healing in any colonial level battle and their effective deadliness drops by several orders of magnitude.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Hand cannon: A hand cannon requires two hands to wield and reload, and can be reloaded in the same amount of time as drawing a weapon. Rather than needing an attack roll to hit, a hand cannon deals damage in a 5' wide line out to medium range (reflex DC 10 + BAB/2 + Dex for half). Enhancement bonuses to hit add to the reflex save DC.

what? medium range? Hope that's a typo.

Why?

My only issue with treating Firearms as weapons that attack in cones/lines is that it's not clear if they're attacks. Is it an attack or a standard action? Can you sneak attack with a Shotgun? Does everyone take damage or just one?

And there is the problem that Shotguns simply don't fire in a 45 degree angle. Nor do most Cannon's reliably beeline a 5ft area for 100s of feet.

If you want realism, D&D is not your game.

[BearsAreBrown]

Holy shit I can't believe you pulled the anti-realism card. Answer me this, why don't swords deal damage in a cone? Or a crossbow? Or a punch?

When you can answer these questions you an answer why you're a retard.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Holy shit I can't believe you pulled the anti-realism card. Answer me this, why don't swords deal damage in a cone? Or a crossbow? Or a punch?

When you can answer these questions you an answer why you're a retard.

Answer me this: Why doesn't damage in area effects fall off towards the edges? How can an archer shoot an arrow a second? Why can't you stab with a longsword? Why aren't weapons that you swing harder to use in tight quarters than weapons that you poke with?

If crossbows dealt damage in a cone, there'd be no reason for the cone-spread either.

Oh, and:

When you can answer these questions you an answer why you're a retard.

[Kaelik]

Oh, and:

When you can answer these questions you an answer why you're a retard.

Let's not start typo wars. Do we really want to pretend that someone making a typo should really count against their argument?

[tussock]

Answer me this: Why doesn't damage in area effects fall off towards the edges? How can an archer shoot an arrow a second? Why can't you stab with a longsword? Why aren't weapons that you swing harder to use in tight quarters than weapons that you poke with?

Really?

• They're not point-source explosions. Things which are, like flasks, fall off sharply.
• Real people can shoot better than an arrow a second with accuracy from light bows. While riding horses at speed no less. Longbows are a different story, but people are still only learning how the things worked, and that's not made it into any game mechanics yet.
• You can stab with a longsword, it just does less damage than swinging with it, as you'll note when the monster has DR 5/piercing and you stab with your longsword.
• They mostly are? Many poking weapons have reach, allowing two ranks and thus more attacks in a corridor. Most other poking weapons are light, allowing them to be used in a grapple. What's left? A mid-sized spear and one sword?

It might surprise you to know that AD&D tried to add a fuck-tonne of realism to the game, and a lot of it is still in there. Not in 4e, but it's still there in 3rd.


Anyway, GURPS 4 has good rules for multiple projectiles, steal that. Shouldn't be too hard to convert.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Oh, and:

When you can answer these questions you an answer why you're a retard.

Let's not start typo wars. Do we really want to pretend that someone making a typo should really count against their argument?

I'm sorry, Kaelik, am I lowering the tone? Next time I'll try to respond how you would to "When you can answer these questions you an answer why you're a retard".

---

Answer me this: Why doesn't damage in area effects fall off towards the edges? How can an archer shoot an arrow a second? Why can't you stab with a longsword? Why aren't weapons that you swing harder to use in tight quarters than weapons that you poke with?

Really?
[*]They're not point-source explosions. Things which are, like flasks, fall off sharply.

I'm pretty sure that fireballs deal full damage all the way out to the edge.

[*]Real people can shoot better than an arrow a second with accuracy from light bows. While riding horses at speed no less. Longbows are a different story, but people are still only learning how the things worked, and that's not made it into any game mechanics yet.

This I'll believe when I see it.

[*]You can stab with a longsword, it just does less damage than swinging with it, as you'll note when the monster has DR 5/piercing and you stab with your longsword.

Please let me know where the rules for this are!

[*]They mostly are? Many poking weapons have reach, allowing two ranks and thus more attacks in a corridor. Most other poking weapons are light, allowing them to be used in a grapple. What's left? A mid-sized spear and one sword?

A "glaive" (slashing only poleaxe) is apparently just as effective in a tunnel as a longspear.

Anyway, GURPS 4 has good rules for multiple projectiles, steal that. Shouldn't be too hard to convert.

[Kaelik]

I'm sorry, Kaelik, am I lowering the tone? Next time I'll try to respond how you would to "When you can answer these questions you an answer why you're a retard".

Well now you are just trying to prove that you are a retard. I didn't say you were lowering the tone. I called you out exactly as I would for criticizing someone for any other non sequitur. Do you actually think the fact that he missed the c key is relevant to the quality of his argument?

If yes, that would explain why you are retarded. If no, then why the fuck monkeys would you bring it up?

If you respond the way I would, you will continue to follow the rule of valuing content over tone or form. And hey, this is fucking form, so yes, I'm specifically asking you to reply more like I would, because it is objectively better to not criticize someone over a typo as if that is relevant to the argument.

[BearsAreBrown]

Catharz do you mean to argue that because some things lack realism we should cry havoc and abandon all verisimilitude?

If you want magic Shotguns that deal damage in a cone I'm down because they're magic and it works because magic said so. I still have questions about the mechanics when someone uses it as their main weapon, such as if it counts as an attack or standard action, can he ranged trip with it?, sneak attack?, etc.

My major oposition to firearms being treated as such is trying to parse together how they're 'special' attacks. They should be standard weapons or they should be spells or they should be their own DEFINED special thing. The cone effect is mostly a side note, though I do find myself asking, why should shotguns shoot in cones? It's not for realism, it's not for streamlining mechanics, it's not for balance...

[Prak]

Here's a thought. Shotguns and cannons deal damage in a line, because the spread of shot seems to be about such that it will hit most anything in a 5'x5' space at any range that matters with a shotgun, and cannonballs move with such speed and mass that if they hit any part of something in a 5'x5' area, they're going to do heavy trauma. Neither fills the space uniformly, but the difference between "I got peppered over my torso with shot" and "my torso was hit by a blast of fire," in D&D, is essentially meaningless. As is the difference between a cannonball hitting you in the shoulder vrs. the stomach.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Catharz do you mean to argue that because some things lack realism we should cry havoc and abandon all verisimilitude?

If you want magic Shotguns that deal damage in a cone I'm down because they're magic and it works because magic said so. I still have questions about the mechanics when someone uses it as their main weapon, such as if it counts as an attack or standard action, can he ranged trip with it?, sneak attack?, etc.

My major oposition to firearms being treated as such is trying to parse together how they're 'special' attacks. They should be standard weapons or they should be spells or they should be their own DEFINED special thing. The cone effect is mostly a side note, though I do find myself asking, why should shotguns shoot in cones? It's not for realism, it's not for streamlining mechanics, it's not for balance...

Why should shotguns fire in a cone? Because I want a cone effect attack for DMFs, and shotguns fire with a conical spread. Why should shotguns fire in a ninety degree cone? Because that's the only cone template that D&D supports.


I had originally written shotguns to shoot in a line (5' is a pretty big spread), but I wanted a niche for hand-held cannons, and I wanted something that did a cone effect without being as finicky & specialized as a flamethrower.

[Prak]

Hm, full auto machine guns or blunderbusses might be more logical cone attacks. Full autoing shouldn't automatically do a cone, but should allow you to simulate a cone or line.

Or Dragon's Breath guns, mass produced guns made from dragon fundamentum glands that that actually give you a dragon's breath weapon to use.

edit: Talking to a gun nut friend, she suggests basing it on an uzi or mac 10 for a spray, or shotgun/blunderbuss for a single shot.

[CatharzGodfoot]

IMO a cone template blunderbus or machine gun is even more of a nonstarter, but if that's what floats your boat...

Fire damage is relatively easy to avoid, so I'd like to avoid it. I'd rather see your 'dragon's breath' as a flaming shotgun.

[Prak]

Just out of curiosity, why would a blunderbuss or machine gun giving a cone template be even less acceptable?

[Maxus]

Why is it so important to give a hand cannon a line effect?

I'd go with them being an RTA effect for a single target (and probably flat bonus damage, like +3 or something on top of the damage die) which frees up lines and cones and so forth for other guns to do. And make hand cannon reloading faster than the other guns or something.

Rifles are just treated as handcannons with longer range.

Niches are established, hand cannon stays something worth using, and it means that no gun has to share effects, requires less hoop jumps to justify why they do what they do, and so on.

[Lokathor]

Hand cannon: A hand cannon requires two hands to wield and reload, and can be reloaded in the same amount of time as drawing a weapon. Rather than needing an attack roll to hit, a hand cannon deals damage in a 5' wide line out to medium range (reflex DC 10 + BAB/2 + Dex for half). Enhancement bonuses to hit add to the reflex save DC.

what? medium range? Hope that's a typo.

Why?

Mostly because it's silly, but I guess if you want.

[Whatever]

How can an archer shoot an arrow a second?

Like this.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Just out of curiosity, why would a blunderbuss or machine gun giving a cone template be even less acceptable?

Because a machine gun is too versatile, and a blunderbuss is a muzzle-loading shotgun.

How can an archer shoot an arrow a second?

Like this.

That is pretty fucking close to an arrow a second. I stand corrected on the realism of high-level D&D archers.

[Prak]

The reason I suggested a blunderbuss is because it has a notably wider muzzle, which, if not actually allowing a wider spread, makes such a more acceptable break from reality for most people.

[tussock]

I'm pretty sure that fireballs deal full damage all the way out to the edge.

Ergo, fireballs are not point-source explosions. Batshit flies out, evokes a 30' wide flash of twisted flame sheets from the elemental plane of fire, everyone within is burnt equally. Hot air wafts away after.

[*]You can stab with a longsword, it just does less damage than swinging with it, as you'll note when the monster has DR 5/piercing and you stab with your longsword.

Please let me know where the rules for this are!

DR 5/piercing, longsword does less damage. What's the problem?

A "glaive" (slashing only poleaxe) is apparently just as effective in a tunnel as a longspear.

Glaives are a chopper, you lift the head a little, and bring it back down again, over and over. Chop, chop, chop. Very small frontage.

It's something that wasn't well understood in the early '70s when EGG wrote them up first time, but melee weapons mostly stay between you and the other man, no matter how long or edged they are. You don't twirl them around your body like Conan. Also, shields are awesome, and fragile, and better armour makes big shields less useful.

Anyway, GURPS 4 has good rules for multiple projectiles, steal that. Shouldn't be too hard to convert.

What? Fine, I'll do it myself.

Shotguns are about negating range penalties against small targets. Also, they have trouble against armour at any range. D&D can't handle both of those paradigms at once, so use no range penalties, short maximum, with fine grade shot getting a bonus to hit but a limited armour bonus it can hurt at all. A bit like a whip. You'll need to make the numbers suit your imagination, some people think shotguns are amazing, but mostly they're just really scary.

[Prak]

Shotguns are about negating range penalties against small targets. Also, they have trouble against armour at any range. D&D can't handle both of those paradigms at once, so use no range penalties, short maximum, with fine grade shot getting a bonus to hit but a limited armour bonus it can hurt at all. A bit like a whip. You'll need to make the numbers suit your imagination, some people think shotguns are amazing, but mostly they're just really scary.

Yeah, I've heard that decent weight sweatshirts, and delivery pizza are capable of stopping shot at the right range. I highly suggest a special rule that gives you a bonus to intimidate if you're carrying a shotgun, though. A bit like the torture rules, where different uses of different things give varying bonuses to Intimidate.

[shadzar]

i play before black powder.. so never really used firearms.. the closed would be non-powder based projectiles.

i think the rules given are pretty good for firearms. they were used in Boot Hill after all pretty much the same rules...