[Dom3] Oldest Profession Game On

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:26 pm

Apparently, will do.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:39 pm

The actual text-to-which-you-agreed was, and I quote myself:
"68 is closer to my capital than to yours, but you can have it anyway. 75 is closer to your capital than to mine, take it with my blessing."

None of which guarantees that you'll actually *get* any of that territory, just that I won't interfere with you claiming it. Which I didn't. I didn't actually offer you those provinces, I just said that *you were free to take them*, whereupon I turned my army around, marched it north and invaded 88/99/100, which you agreed i was *free to take*.

I wasn't *paying* you provinces, I was just agreeing to say out of them. The only promise was to stay out of each others way, and you didn't do it! Consider the two ponies, suppose that you say "there are two fields here, one by the river and one by the hill, let's split them up, which would you like?"
and I say "I'll take the hill, you can have the river."
and you say "agreed".

If the river floods and your field is drowned, you don't get to graze my hill; I didn't *pay* you the river.

Nor, in general, do you get to amend an agreement if you later decide it isn't to your advantage. You always follow an agreement when it is to your advantage; it's only when an agreement turns out not to be in your advantage that you get any credit for honoring your promises!

It cost you more than it cost me, so I'm not going to try to extract the cost of those sacreds you killed, but don't expect people to take your offers seriously if you don't honor them when you decide for some reason that they weren't advantageous.

Ikeren wrote:@Praetor: I was under the impression you thought there was no-one in the NW corner. Either way; yes; had the NW corner player taken province 99, I think you would have been entirely justified in saying "Hey, that agreement we worked out isn't valid, let's renegotiate." I would have probably tried to say "No", at which point we would be having precisely the inverse of this discussion.

Either way, your getting the corner uncontested, but if we agree:
1) I get X
2) You get Y

and then I don't in fact get X, don't expect me to concede Y, even if the reason I don't get X has nothing to do with you.

Let's use an amusing analogy. Say I'm a Pony, and another pony says "Hey, if you help me paint this poster for rainbow and sunshine day, I'll give you a dozen cupcakes." and I say "sure, pass over the cupcakes." If at that moment, a bolt of lightning strikes the cupcakes, don't expect me to help you with your poster.

In this case; poster = north west corner, cupcakes = 68+75, and bolt of lightning = K.

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:53 pm

If the river floods and your field is drowned, you don't get to graze my hill; I didn't *pay* you the river.

Actually, in precisely that analogy, I would come up to your hill. And if you were on the low-lands, I'd expect you to as well.

On an unrelated note, I'd like to trade for some Air, Death, or Nature gems. I'm willing to trade away Fire, Earth, or Blood. Preferably not to players adjacent unless I have NAP's with them.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:21 am

Mighty Caelum went to war with Pangea, who was being a dick, but they turned their thug god against us and we folded like a ten-high with trips to win. Now Lanka is besieging our capital. They said we looked tasty, and to be honest, we understand. In truth, we should have played it defensive and brought out some more Eagle Kings, waited until our pretender woke up. But we were playing a luck economy, and weren't set up to deal with a supercombatant.

Which is why as our pretty much final act, Caelum is funneling its reservoir of gems and gold to someone else in the hopes that they'll use it to kick Pangaea's ass. Because Pangaea was truly being a dick this game.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:32 am

Ooh! Ooh! Send all your gems and money to me.

Ancient History wrote:Which is why as our pretty much final act, Caelum is funneling its reservoir of gems and gold to someone else in the hopes that they'll use it to kick Pangaea's ass. Because Pangaea was truly being a dick this game.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:40 am

Any chance those for whom it wouldn't compromise their secrets could each do a post explaining the god they ran and why, what they used for early expansion and research, and what their gameplan was? I'm thinking especially of those who died, but also those whose gods are out and about and have become public knowledge. Or those who are confident enough to show their hands.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:15 am

Ancient History wrote:Mighty Caelum went to war with Pangea, who was being a dick, but they turned their thug god against us and we folded like a ten-high with trips to win. Now Lanka is besieging our capital. They said we looked tasty, and to be honest, we understand. In truth, we should have played it defensive and brought out some more Eagle Kings, waited until our pretender woke up. But we were playing a luck economy, and weren't set up to deal with a supercombatant.

Which is why as our pretty much final act, Caelum is funneling its reservoir of gems and gold to someone else in the hopes that they'll use it to kick Pangaea's ass. Because Pangaea was truly being a dick this game.

So Caelum stabs Pangaea in the back, is too feeble to twist the knife and starts QQing because a 3rd (in this case, 4th) party moves on their poorly defended capital?

Yeah, blame your luck scales for your poor choices. I stated previously that was not going to hold any grudges after your repeated dishonesty has blindsided me in MP games, that I would simply avoid dealing with you in future, or not negotiate in good faith. That is no longer the case. You have made this a personal issue.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:34 am

Dude, Winnah, you gave me a real time ultimatum for you declaring war. And you delivered it before I'd seen my turn and thus did not even know we had a border. If your treatment of your other neighbors was even half that dickish, then referring to you as "being a dick" is more than fair.

That sort of behavior is not acceptable in any asynchronous multiplayer game. I understand the desire to get information quickly, but you can't expect to get anywhere by just pissing everyone off by being an asshole. Unless the information that you want is "everyone going to war with you because you're an overly-aggressive jerk who makes unreasonable real-world demands in a children's card game".

-Username17

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:01 am

Abysia->

Very funny.

Orion wrote:Any chance those for whom it wouldn't compromise their secrets could each do a post explaining the god they ran and why, what they used for early expansion and research, and what their gameplan was? I'm thinking especially of those who died, but also those whose gods are out and about and have become public knowledge. Or those who are confident enough to show their hands.

I can probably do one after the game. I had a pretty specific game plan with Ulm.

Funnily, after the start of the game I experimented with a number of Nifleheim builds and am now wondering how different the game would have been with me playing Nifleheim instead of Ulm

.

The format should be similar to the guide I already made for Vanheim previously.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:18 am

I asked for a response before I submitted my turn. I stated I would interpret no response as a prelude to hostilities. Why am I repeating myself?

I had recieved information that suggests Caelum is in collusion with Sauro, or at least they have a peace deal worked out. So when I notice your nation has an army on my border when I opened my turn, I fire off an in character IM, asking whether you desire "War or Peace?" and explaining that I don't care either way, that I would assume war unless otherwise informed.

Anything else you want to infer from that, is on you. I don't care. Post the IMs if you want to make this a public issue.

Compounding 2 seperate things into one issue presents a disingenous picture of me, especially when AH starts making personal attacks because his dishonesty bit him in the arse. I was prepared to let the issue between us drop. I told him as much privately. He chose otherwise.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:21 am

When Pangaea conquered a nearby province and we shared a border, Caelum sent an IM of greeting and asked for a NAP-3. This was the response:

Pangaea wrote:Secure your borders. Grant succor to your faithful and educate the skeptics that take refuge in your realm. If you can accomplish this, then we may coexist...for a time.

So...yeah, that's not exactly a peace agreement, and I didn't take it as such. So you can take your "stabbing in the back" and cram it up your well-used ass.
[/edit]
I should add, that based on Pangaea being a dick I allied with Fomoria, gathered a small army, and began taking Pangaean provinces. This was Pangaea's response:

Pangaea wrote:OOC: So you respond to a declaration of peace by attacking my nation. I should have known better, considering an NAP betweeen our nations in a previous game (VaeVictis) did not stop you from making unprovoked attacks. Not that I consider diplomacy truly binding, mind you.

Oh well. Fool me once, shame on you...Well played sir. Expect no honest dealings from me in future.

No grudges either. Too much work.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:46 am

It's not the first time you have broken a deal in a game. It's the last time you'll have the opportunity to break a deal with me.

As I stated in IM you did not post, you came to me with the peace deal, if you were confused about the terms, or wanted more guarantees, you should have said so. It should have been clear from my message that I had no intention of attacking Caeulum. Allowing me to think we had a peace deal that you had no intention of honouring, then waiting until I engage another opponent before attacking, just shows what a manipulative person you are. PMing me insults after the fact makes you vindictive as well.

The only reason you're QQing now is because your efforts backfired horribly and obviously. Like your backstabbing in other games, you gained nothing from your dishonesty. The results were made apparent more quickly in this game, is all.

As for my 'well-used ass.' Pucker up and kiss it. I was prepared to accept your dishonesty as part of the game and move on, but you you just keep up with the personal attacks.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:59 am

Okay, one: I offered peace, you came back with a dickish response. It was in no way clear that you either accepted peace, and you were being very aggressive toward all other players.

Two: Actions in previous games should not impact relations in the current game - but even so, WTF are you talking about? When did I backstab you in another game?

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:31 pm

Ulm would like to announce that we are now selling Dwarven Hammers in limited quantities to any interested parties.

Our asking price for each Hammer is either 15 Nature Gems, or 40 Blood Slaves.

Please PM if interested.

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:59 pm

Which is why as our pretty much final act, Caelum is funneling its reservoir of gems and gold to someone else in the hopes that they'll use it to kick Pangaea's ass. Because Pangaea was truly being a dick this game.

I'll offer something that vaguely resembles hope on a good day, and you probably have air gems, which I could use.

Repeating my offer to trade for some Air, Death, or Nature gems. I'm willing to trade away Fire, Earth, or Blood. Preferably not to players adjacent unless I have NAP's with them.

K · Post by K » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:21 pm

If you give your gems to me, I promise to do something hilarious with them.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:27 pm

Looking for: Earth Gems.
Will Trade: Death or Water Gems.

-Sauromatia

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:06 pm

I have air gems that I can't spend (oops put wrong paths on God.)

I'm not in a huge hurry to get rid of them, but will take useful items of any kind except fire or blood.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:21 am

Ulm is mildly amused by all this scrambling for Caelum's inheritance

.

Ikeren · Post by **Ikeren** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:45 am

Looking for: Earth Gems.
Will Trade: Death or Water Gems.

I could use ~12 death gems. I'd be willing to go 1=1 with them, 12 earth.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:04 am

Ancient History wrote:Okay, one: I offered peace, you came back with a dickish response. It was in no way clear that you either accepted peace, and you were being very aggressive toward all other players.

Yet you managed to interpret from my message that I had a stong dominion...and then Caelum started preaching and putting up temples. Look at the score graphs.

Convenient you wait until after I engaged someone else before deciding my acceptance of your offer was ambiguous. Curious you did not seek to clarify that ambiguity, considering you asked for the deal. Fucking remarkable that Caelum has made it this far into the game considering their close proximity to Pangaea.

Two: Actions in previous games should not impact relations in the current game - but even so, WTF are you talking about? When did I backstab you in another game?

Bullshit. If someone has a habit of breaking deals, they should not be trusted.

As for your previous treachery, you were playing Man. I was subbing for Tenuki in the game VaeVictis. You IM'ed me to reaffirm an NAP you had with him. I agreed. Some time later you take a province without prior notification, justify your behaviour after the fact, ask to keep the NAP...then kept attacking every few turns. Just like your pointless dishonesty in this game, you ultimately achieved nothing.

If you managed to lie and backstab your way to victory, that would be totally different. But you did not. You did not even come close.

Going so far as to blame me for your loss, when Pangaea is not even bordering Caelums capital is either laughably idiotic or just another round of vindictive deceit. I'm past caring.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:54 am

Winnah wrote:Yet you managed to interpret from my message that I had a stong dominion...and then Caelum started preaching and putting up temples. Look at the score graphs.

This is completely incoherent. What does anyone putting up a temple have to do with anything? Why would anyone need to read your messages to realize how strong your dominion was? Why would building temples be a targeted act against you if your dominion was strong?

Nothing you said in those sentences makes any fucking sense at all. People build temples. Sometimes temples are even built by positive random events. People putting temples on the border is only aggressive if your dominion is weak enough that it might be snuffed out or if the dominion in question does something horrible (either intrinsically like Ashen Fields or Miasma, or contextually like someone with Wrath of God or Lure of the Deep). Most of the time, people build temples because they want to build Bear Tribe Shamans or some shit.

Honestly you might as well be pointing accusatorily and shouting that the score graphs clearly show that someone built troops or conducted research. Do you have a drinking problem? What the fuck is wrong with you?

Edit: Last time you sent the Gorgon to do battle against the forces of Sauromatia, she escaped with her life and one hit point. And now you sent her in alone again to face the same Sauromatian army? She deserves her death.

-Username17

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:33 am

Winnah wrote: As for your previous treachery, you were playing Man. I was subbing for Tenuki in the game VaeVictis. You IM'ed me to reaffirm an NAP you had with him. I agreed. Some time later you take a province without prior notification, justify your behaviour after the fact, ask to keep the NAP...then kept attacking every few turns. Just like your pointless dishonesty in this game, you ultimately achieved nothing.

I literally don't remember any of this shit. I do know I was playing both ends against the middle in VaeVictis, and managed to get no less than two neighboring nations to allow me to take provinces under the guise of continuing three-way conflicts, but that's about it for details.

Going so far as to blame me for your loss, when Pangaea is not even bordering Caelums capital is either laughably idiotic or just another round of vindictive deceit. I'm past caring.

I'm not blaming you for losing (hey, I knew you had a thug pretender going in), I'm blaming you for acting like a dick and then bitching like a little bitch when somebody called you on it.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:35 pm

For the moment, we will no longer be selling Dwarven Hammers for 15 Nature gems.

However, we will still continue to sell Dwarven Hammers for 40 Blood Slaves apiece.

Please PM if interested.

Gnosticism Is A Hoot · Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:24 pm

Hilarious diplomacy drama bullshit aside, I have to give Pangaea props for very nearly defeating Caelum and myself at the same time. I've learned a valuable lesson RE: screwing up sacred giant rushes.