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Username17
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Post by Username17 »

K wrote:The problem is that the archer gets to be on the other side of the room and immune to melee attacks because something is in the way. Maybe some friendly swordsman are in the way or the meleer just out of movement range, or maybe the archer is flying or on a ledge, but any situation where the archer can attack and damage his opponent and the meleer can't do jack about it means the archer is fundamentally better.
So archers are overpowered because melee characters can control space? That is not the most retarded argument being made on the Den at the moment (that would be either "What is maths?" or possibly "People shouldn't do new things"), but it's close. In your own fucking example, the only reason the Archer gets to act at all is because a melee character is able to keep people from stabbing him in the face.

Are you deliberately making bad arguments as some sort of concern trolling exercise?

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hyzmarca
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Post by hyzmarca »

John Magnum wrote:
K wrote:Ideally, I'd fix that by using an abstract zone system and just giving ranged attacks some special power inside the zone like being able to hit multiple targets for substantially less damage per opponent
Which is to say you'd fix it by getting rid of ranged attacks? Great solution.
There's always the alternate interpretation that melee fighters can shoot energy bolts from their swords like Link as an innate at-will ability.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:
K wrote:Here is the short version:

The design goal is: make sure people don't lose at chargen by making racial abilities equally useful to all classes. This means altering a bunch of core assumptions about how several simple abilities and conditions need to work so that they aren't completely unbalanced when used. The two we've discussed are ranged attacks and low-light vision vs. darkness, both variations of the Flying Archer problem.
Okay, let's see if we can do something with this. Because I'm infatuated with the idea of houseruling it right now and it doesn't have hyperdetailed combat, let's go with OSH ( http://www.oldschoolhack.net/ ) as a basic system to work off of.

Basically, the attributes have little bearing inside of combat except for use as "saving throws" and determining whether you can carry heavy weapons and armor. Classes give you one thing by default, and you can pick one thing of the list of secondary abilities per level.

Races:

Midgardian:
- Can go twice as long without food. You skip every other check for starvation penalties.
- You skip every other check for fatiguing out from a chase.
- For Daring, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.

Jotunese:
- Don't take discomfort penalties in cold environments, and your blood can't be frozen. You can sleep in open snow without dying of exposure.
- You can turn into a wolf. This uses stat-block replacement, so how powerful you are personally doesn't really figure in. If the wolf dies, you appear, knocked out but unharmed.
- For Brawn, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.

Alfar:
- See in the dark as though you had a torch.
- Adapt to new environments so after 1 day, you don't take discomfort penalties. Don't keep old adaptions, you have to re-acclimatize.
- For Cunning, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.


Classes:
- Red
Basic: You may evoke fire. This comes in the form of a ball about the size of what you'd see on the end of a torch. The ball dissipates if you let go of it, but you can chuck it like you were an imp from Doom. Counts as a weapon, and you can burn or warm stuff.
Secondary 1: Boost someone's fighting abilities. If they go more than a few rounds without getting re-boosted, it wears off.
Secondary 2: Make a super-flaming attack that deals extra damage. Needs to recharge by moving to a new combat zone.
Secondary 3: Once per day, unleash chaotic fire magic that sets the whole arena on fire.

- Blue
Basic: Force a reroll on someone's attack, but you need to recharge to reuse.
Secondary 1: Evoke blasts of wind strong enough to move unattended objects like keys and such. You get a wind-based knockdown attack that needs to recharge.
Secondary 2: Evoke blasts of water that work like the last ability, but have different MTP applications and give you another special knockdown attack before you need to recharge.
Secondary 3: Once per day, gain magical flight, but it starts dealing unblockable damage to you if you hold it for more than a couple minutes. The flight comes from obvious glowy energy wings.

- Green
Basic: Negate a bit of damage from an attack. Need to recharge.
Secondary 1: Once per day, heal someone a significant amount.
Secondary 2: Once per day, make an arena full of entangling plants
Secondary 3: Fire venom bolts that deal damage over time. Need to recharge.
Any thoughts on how well this works? I think the see-in-the-dark race works roughly as well with each of the 3 classes, but I wrote this in like 20 minutes before I went to sleep last night, so I didn't do much to review it.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

K wrote:I mean, the essence of the Flying Archer problem is that it's a boring auto-win tactic that expends no resources, not that it's a faster take-down than a melee guy might do.
What.

There's a reason we called the hypothetical character confounded by a flying archer the Dumbass Melee Fighter. Because there are actually many counters to such a tactic, even if you insist on using a melee weapon.

I'm really offended that your solution is to declare Baby's First Combat where choices don't matter. And to implement it by making things function in completely counter-intuitive ways. 'Bows don't have range, but do attack multiple targets better'? What.

Now, I agree that fantastic racism and losing at chargen are problems, and they can and should be reduced significantly. But your proposals for actually eliminating them altogether occur as insane.
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Post by K »

FrankTrollman wrote:
K wrote:The problem is that the archer gets to be on the other side of the room and immune to melee attacks because something is in the way. Maybe some friendly swordsman are in the way or the meleer just out of movement range, or maybe the archer is flying or on a ledge, but any situation where the archer can attack and damage his opponent and the meleer can't do jack about it means the archer is fundamentally better.
So archers are overpowered because melee characters can control space? That is not the most retarded argument being made on the Den at the moment (that would be either "What is maths?" or possibly "People shouldn't do new things"), but it's close. In your own fucking example, the only reason the Archer gets to act at all is because a melee character is able to keep people from stabbing him in the face.

Are you deliberately making bad arguments as some sort of concern trolling exercise?

-Username17
Fixed that for you. You stopped reading too soon.
Last edited by K on Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by K »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
I'm really offended that your solution is to declare Baby's First Combat where choices don't matter. And to implement it by making things function in completely counter-intuitive ways. 'Bows don't have range, but do attack multiple targets better'? What.
Why do you think that choices wouldn't matter?

I mean, I offered a handful of subsystems and two abilities.... how can you make a judgement on the hundreds of abilities and dozens of subsystems that aren't written and magically know how they all work together?

Are you a prophet? If so, can you give me lottery numbers?
Last edited by K on Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RadiantPhoenix
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

Isn't the solution to not let people go melee-only?
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Why do you think that choices wouldn't matter?
That really does seem to be your goal. If there are no wrong choices, then there are no right choices, and choosing makes no difference. Racial abilities, weapon qualities - that seems to be the direction you're going in.
I mean, I offered a handful of subsystems and two abilities.... how can you make a judgement on the hundreds of abilities and dozens of subsystems that aren't written and magically know how they all work together?
K, you are going full Monte Cook. Sure, Skill Challenges were ass, but how could we criticize any of the thousands of fixes he almost made?

I am judging the philosophies and decisions you have presented in this thread. The ones I have seen look bad, and also appear to be the fruit of a poisonous tree that has produced only madness and will continue to produce only madness.

Seriously, to cater to the DMF, you are removing range as a consideration in combat. Rather than telling the DMF to carry a backup ranged weapon or use other tactical countermeasures.

You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater to achieve a sterile perfection that no-one else seems to want. Just get rid of the bathwater!
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Post by Stubbazubba »

PhoneLobster wrote:you have a fucking "best wizard race".
No, especially if you did it like I did where each race has a list to pick where the bonuses/penalties go, each of which comprises 2/3 of the attribute list, then you do not have a best wizard race, you have 2/3 of the races being equally capable of being a wizard, and 1/3 not so much. A race is defined more by what it's not good at than what it's good at. You would have multiple best wizard races, and significant overlap for any given race/class. But each of the "best wizard races" would have mechanical differences, and even within the same race/class combination you would see mechanical differences.

Now I understand the desire to make every race capable of doing everything equally well, either by making everything not matter, like K's proposal, or making race not matter or even exist, like Frank's proposal. This is a compromise, where both matter, but without pigeonholing races into classes. It keeps the options open while still making racial choice matter and maintain stronger verisimilitude for a setting. There are concessions on both sides, but it's way more flexible than PF.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Did a bit more thinking about racial abilities. I'm trying to see whether I can make an Ice mage that benefits the three races I presented equally.

Let's look at the Purple class, which is ice magic, some psychic power stuff, and magical wards. Jotunese are the biggest potential for advantage, since they can survive out in the snow indefinitely with some discomfort. Fancy freeze-the-whole arena stuff might give discomfort penalties they'd be able to avoid. If that's a problem, you'd probably have to focus on the effects on the arena being slipperiness and maybe dangerous spikes. So, in combat, discomfort penalties from it being cold don't really apply.

Jotunese still might have an advantage if they freeze someplace and then stand guard there long enough for everyone to feel the cold, but that falls far enough into MTP-land that I don't think it's such a big deal.
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Post by K »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
That really does seem to be your goal. If there are no wrong choices, then there are no right choices, and choosing makes no difference. Racial abilities, weapon qualities - that seems to be the direction you're going in.
No wrong choices at chargen. Hate the right thing, dude.

In combat, there is no way to not have right and wrong choices. Some abilities are going to be better when used in certain situations because it's literally impossible to make "no wrong choices at all" if you have any choices at all.

I'm kind of insulted that you'd think that I'd imagine that I could do that.

I do think you can remove the worst issues with obvious problems like the Flying Archer Problem. I also think you can fix chain-binding, Scry and Die, MAD, SAD, DMF, glass cannons, WBL and item stupidity in the economiy, Wizards>Fighters, monster classes, option paralysis, charm and illusion abuse, SoDs, and basically all the stuff we learned from the mistakes of DnD.

I mean, I just don't want some Sorcerers taking Hold Portal while others get Color Spray. I don't want Monks being told that not needing armor and weapons in prison escapes costs the same as real abilities. I don't want archers to just be fundamentally better than melee guys in every way.

But hey, if you don't care to try to fix those problems I can point to to some fun games. DnD, for example.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Speaking of darkness, why do devils see in darkness while many demons get the Darkness SLA?

Wouldn't it make sense to give devils the Darkness and give demons something else since their "Blood War enemies" are immune to what would otherwise be a good tactic.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

sigma999 wrote:Speaking of darkness, why do devils see in darkness while many demons get the Darkness SLA?

Wouldn't it make sense to give devils the Darkness and give demons something else since their "Blood War enemies" are immune to what would otherwise be a good tactic.
Maybe devils seeing in darkness is an adaptation to all the jerky fiends that kept turning their lights off a bajillion years ago.
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Post by shadzar »

K wrote:
angelfromanotherpin wrote:
That really does seem to be your goal. If there are no wrong choices, then there are no right choices, and choosing makes no difference. Racial abilities, weapon qualities - that seems to be the direction you're going in.
No wrong choices at chargen.
the ONLY way to have this, is to remove those who think one choice is better than another for SOMEONE ELSE'S character.

You play your character, and let other people play their own character, and dont even consider their character yours in ANY way, and let them play it how they want to.

dont play towards PvP, but towards working together..

CharOp and "cleric = healbot" is where the idea of a player making a "wrong" choice for his character comes from. basically someone trying to tell someone else the RIGHT WAY to play a character of Race X/Class Y.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Parthenon »

People are getting firmly entrenched in their views on the low light vision so why not temporarily look at something else- size. People want to be able to play as hobbits which are fundamentally smaller than humans.

Now, how can you have a system where size does not affect which class is good for you? Where being smaller does not make you harder to spot, does not give you smaller reach, does not make it harder to find armour that fits, does not make it harder to hit you.
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Post by Hieronymous Rex »

K wrote:I do think you can remove the worst issues with obvious problems like the Flying Archer Problem.
An archer that can fly above a DMF and kill him without fear of reprisal is the system working as intended, and any system in which they could not would be verisimilitude breaking to an unacceptable degree.

Certainly, there are many ways to to even out melee and missile some (e.g. zone of control, removing full attack, making missile deal comparatively less damage, limiting movement while firing, not forcing fighters to choose between the two), but trying to make "being able to attack at a distance" not an advantage of any kind is a misguided design goal.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Parthenon wrote:
People are getting firmly entrenched in their views on the low light vision so why not temporarily look at something else- size. People want to be able to play as hobbits which are fundamentally smaller than humans.

Now, how can you have a system where size does not affect which class is good for you? Where being smaller does not make you harder to spot, does not give you smaller reach, does not make it harder to find armour that fits, does not make it harder to hit you.
I think OSH could be a decent chassis to build something like this off of as well.

- roll 3d10, subtract highest, for Brawn
- roll 3d10, subtract lowest, for Daring and Commitment
- cannot use Very Heavy weapons
- You are small, and can fit in places a human couldn't. This is helpful for hiding sometimes. Also, you don't eat much.

Weapons and Armor are a choice of 1 of 5 or so categories, flavored however you like. There isn't enough detail in the system for short people's weapons to be less effective. And if class merely determines what flavor of magic you shoot out of your hands, then you don't need to worry about benefiting sneaky classes asymmetrically.
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Post by OgreBattle »

so, how exactly did K create a system where archery is a form of melee attack? I'm a little lost as I hear it mentioned but don't see it described.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

So, will people comment on my idea if I let one flavor of PC turn into a cat? We shall see.
K wrote:Here is the short version:
The design goal is: make sure people don't lose at chargen by making racial abilities equally useful to all classes. This means altering a bunch of core assumptions about how several simple abilities and conditions need to work so that they aren't completely unbalanced when used. The two we've discussed are ranged attacks and low-light vision vs. darkness, both variations of the Flying Archer problem.
Okay, let's see if we can do something with this. Because I'm infatuated with the idea of houseruling it right now and it doesn't have hyperdetailed combat, let's go with OSH ( http://www.oldschoolhack.net/ ) as a basic system to work off of.

Basically, the attributes have little bearing inside of combat except for use as "saving throws" and determining whether you can carry heavy weapons and armor. Classes give you one thing by default, and you can pick one thing off the list of secondary abilities per level.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Races:
Midgardian:
- Can go twice as long without food. You skip every other check for starvation penalties.
- You skip every other check for fatiguing out from a chase.
- For Daring, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.

Jotunese:
- Don't take discomfort penalties in cold environments, and your blood can't be frozen. You can sleep in open snow without dying of exposure.
- You can turn into a wolf. This uses stat-block replacement, so how powerful you are personally doesn't really figure in. If the wolf dies, you appear, knocked out but unharmed.
- For Brawn, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.

Alfar:
- Don't take penalties from poor visibility purely from darkness. Smoke and dust clouds are still a problem.
- Adapt to new environments so after 1 day, you don't take discomfort penalties. Don't keep old adaptions, you have to re-acclimatize.
- For Cunning, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.

Bastoi
- You are small and furry. This means you can fit into spaces an adult human could not. You are also ridiculously strong for your size, so you roll for Brawn normally.
- You can turn into a cat. Stat replacement, but unlike the Jotunese, you don't change back if you die. Instead, the can be brought back from the dead with a simple ritual if it isn't too mangled.
- Take half damage from falls.
- For Charm, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.

Earthborn
- You can eat stuff a human couldn't. Dirt gives you all the nutritional input you need to survive.
- You only need 2 hours of sleep a day.
- For Commitment, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.

Vanara
- You are a monkey person who can climb stuff easily (count as having tools whether you do or don't) and hold small things in your tail.
- You can meditate instead of sleep. Take half penalties if you get surprised while you rest.
- For Awareness, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Classes:
- Red
Basic: You may evoke fire. This comes in the form of a ball about the size of what you'd see on the end of a torch. The ball dissipates if you let go of it, but you can chuck it like you were an imp from Doom. Counts as a Ranged weapon if you do, and you can burn or warm stuff.
Secondary 1: Boost someone's fighting abilities. If they go more than a few rounds without getting re-boosted, it wears off.
Secondary 2: Make a super-flaming attack that deals extra damage. Needs to recharge by moving to a new combat zone.
Secondary 3: Once per day, unleash chaotic fire magic that sets the whole arena on fire.

- Blue
Basic: You may channel energy into people, creating spastic surges of speed that could throw someone off of their attack or help someone connect. This lets you force a reroll on someone's attack, but you need to recharge to reuse the ability.
Secondary 1: Evoke blasts of wind strong enough to move unattended objects like keys and such. You get a wind-based knockdown attack that needs to recharge.
Secondary 2: Evoke blasts of water that work like the last ability, but have different MTP applications and give you another special knockdown attack before you need to recharge.
Secondary 3: Once per day, gain magical flight, but it starts dealing unblockable damage to you if you hold it for more than a couple minutes. The flight comes from obvious glowy energy wings.

- Green
Basic: Your life magic allows you to heal people nearby, but only works on relatively fresh injuries. Negate a bit of damage from an attack, and you can use this in arenas you aren't in. Need to recharge.
Secondary 1: Through channeling a huge amount of life force and directing it very carefully, you can heal people even after the wounds are no longer fresh. Once per day, heal someone a significant amount.
Secondary 2: Once per day, supercharge plant growth make an arena full of entangling vegetation. You can't exempt someone from getting entangled, so friendly fire is a concern.
Secondary 3: Fire venom bolts that deal damage over time. It's a Ranged weapon, but has the special property of dealing more damage to someone hit next round if they don't do something to wipe it off.

- Purple
Basic: You can fire frost bolts, counting as a Ranged weapon. You may also freeze water and other fluids by touch. This sort of lets you slide over the surface of pools, but the ice melts pretty quickly if the area isn't cold.
Secondary 1: Once per day, cover the arena in slippery ice. People fall over easily if they aren't careful, and this ice is magically charged so it won't melt for at least half an hour even in the desert.
Secondary 2: Once per day, get the ability to read surface thoughts, but it starts dealing unblockable damage to you if you hold it for more than a couple minutes. This gives you a bonus to defence.
Secondary 3: Once per day, create a magical ward around an arena. Entering or exiting the arena triggers a magical attack that is really noisy and flashy. The ward is made of magical runes that can be targeted and destroyed, but it is tough.

- Yellow
Basic: Once per arena, call down damaging lightning on a particular target.
Secondary 1: If you attack someone you succeeded in attacking last round, your attack channels crackling electricity, increasing the damage of a hit. If you attack someone you succeeding in hitting with the electricity-enhanced strike last round, you deal extra lightning damage whether the main hit succeeds or not, but you don't count the attack as a success for the purposes of this ability.
Secondary 2: You can curse enemies. This is essentially the debuff opposite of the buff granted by Red.
Secondary 3: Once per arena, use an electricity-based attack that has a chance to stunlock, but doesn't deal much damage. Can only be used on targets in the same arena or connected to you by something really conductive.

- Silver
Basic: Once per arena, transform your weapon into a weapon of another category.
Secondary 1: Once per arena, everyone in your arena takes a point of damage. Including you, and this doesn't count as an attack.
Secondary 2: Once per day, come back from the dead with 1 hit point.
Secondary 3: Once per day, teleport to another arena without using up your action.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Post by JonSetanta »

OgreBattle wrote:so, how exactly did K create a system where archery is a form of melee attack? I'm a little lost as I hear it mentioned but don't see it described.
He said ranged attacks are unfair, mentioned an abstract combat zoning system that doesn't exist, and argued with Frank for 20 posts.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

I've seen at least one game where ranged attacks didn't give much "unfair" advantage. It was a turn-based tactical strategy game ( http://www.wesnoth.org/ ) , and when one unit attacked another, it got counterattacked if the target had an attack with the appropriate tag.

Example units:

Footman (has [Melee] attacks)
Elf (has [Melee] and [Ranged attacks])
Necromancer (has [Ranged] attacks)

So, if the elf shoots at the footman, the footman doesn't get counterattacks. Simultaneously, though, the necromancer only gets to counterattack at range. If you attack in melee, they can't do anything about it.

Not sure it would work very well for an RPG, though.
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Post by Ice9 »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:So, will people comment on my idea if I let one flavor of PC turn into a cat? We shall see.
Ok, commenting. The races look fine. The classes look rather dull. If that's supposed to be what they get at first level, or what they get in addition to a bunch of shared stuff, then fine, but if that's the sum total then count me out.

How much it fulfills or doesn't fulfill the premise of the thread depends on what kind of non-class-specific actions characters can take in the system, and how flexible the class abilities are. Also, since the races give effectively stat bonuses, how those stats are used is important.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Parthenon wrote:Now, how can you have a system where size does not affect which class is good for you? Where being smaller does not make you harder to spot, does not give you smaller reach, does not make it harder to find armour that fits, does not make it harder to hit you.
Size is overpowered. No one is allowed to play anything but a medium race and popular PC races that aren't 'medium' will be stealth-resized.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Ice9 wrote:
Avoraciopoctules wrote:So, will people comment on my idea if I let one flavor of PC turn into a cat? We shall see.
Ok, commenting. The races look fine. The classes look rather dull. If that's supposed to be what they get at first level, or what they get in addition to a bunch of shared stuff, then fine, but if that's the sum total then count me out.

How much it fulfills or doesn't fulfill the premise of the thread depends on what kind of non-class-specific actions characters can take in the system, and how flexible the class abilities are. Also, since the races give effectively stat bonuses, how those stats are used is important.
What do you mean by "a bunch of shared stuff"? You mean like the combat maneuvers in Races of War, or some kind of basic spell pool? I might be able to implement something like that.

As it stands currently, each class gives you a number of abilities equal to your level +1, and nothing else. However, I'm also thinking that you get a new class with more abilities at level 5.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Worked on this some more on the bus. I wonder if anyone has noticed both of the 2 big sources I am looting for ideas here. Now with more detail and gratuitous amounts of BBCode.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-
K wrote:Here is the short version:
The design goal is: make sure people don't lose at chargen by making racial abilities equally useful to all classes. This means altering a bunch of core assumptions about how several simple abilities and conditions need to work so that they aren't completely unbalanced when used. The two we've discussed are ranged attacks and low-light vision vs. darkness, both variations of the Flying Archer problem.
Okay, let's see if we can do something with this. Because I'm infatuated with the idea of houseruling it right now and it doesn't have hyperdetailed combat, let's go with OSH ( http://www.oldschoolhack.net/ ) as a basic system to work off of.

Basically, the attributes have little bearing inside of combat except for use as "saving throws" and determining whether you can carry heavy weapons and armor. Classes give you one thing by default, and you can pick one thing off the list of secondary abilities per level.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Races:
Midgardian:
- Can go twice as long without food. You skip every other check for starvation penalties.
- You skip every other check for fatiguing out from a chase.
- For Daring, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.

Jotunese:
- Don't take discomfort penalties in cold environments, and your blood can't be frozen. You can sleep in open snow without dying of exposure.
- You can turn into a wolf. This uses stat-block replacement, so how powerful you are personally doesn't really figure in. If the wolf dies, you appear, knocked out but unharmed.
- For Brawn, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.

Alfar:
- Don't take penalties from poor visibility purely from darkness. Smoke and dust clouds are still a problem.
- Adapt to new environments so after 1 day, you don't take discomfort penalties. Don't keep old adaptions, you have to re-acclimatize.
- For Cunning, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.

Bastoi
- You are small and furry. This means you can fit into spaces an adult human could not. You are also ridiculously strong for your size, so you roll for Brawn normally.
- You can turn into a cat. Stat replacement, but unlike the Jotunese, you don't change back if you die. Instead, the can be brought back from the dead with a simple ritual if it isn't too mangled.
- Take half damage from falls.
- For Charm, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.

Earthborn
- You can eat stuff a human couldn't. Dirt gives you all the nutritional input you need to survive.
- You only need 2 hours of sleep a day.
- For Commitment, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.

Vanara
- You are a monkey person who can climb stuff easily (count as having tools whether you do or don't) and hold small things in your tail.
- You can meditate instead of sleep. Take half penalties if you get surprised while you rest. In addition, disruptions to your rest don't ruin your ability to recover daily abilities.
- For Awareness, roll 3d10, keep 2 highest.
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Classes:

- Red
Basic (Produce Flame): You may evoke fire. This comes in the form of a ball about the size of what you'd see on the end of a torch. The ball dissipates if you let go of it, but you can chuck it like you were an imp from Doom. Counts as a Ranged weapon if you do, and you can burn or warm stuff.
Secondary Abilities:
Ruby Blessing: You may channel Red mana into someone so it reinvigorates them with unnatural strength and energy. The Ruby Blessing gives +1 to all attacks and attribute checks. The effect can be voluntarily shaken off if the beneficiary spends an action calming down. The effect deals a point of unblockable damage to the beneficiary for every minute it is sustained, so it's generally a good idea to turn it off after combat.
Blazing Strike: You may wreathe yourself in flame as you attack with a weapon. This means your attack deals an extra point of damage, and the target is generally set on fire. In phase 4, if they don't spend their action putting the fire out, they take a point of damage.
Pyroclasmic Rift: Once per day, unleash chaotic fire magic that sets the whole arena on fire. Everyone takes point of damage ___ phase

- Blue
Basic (Redirect Strike): You can infuse people with chaotic magical motion, creating spastic surges of speed that could throw someone off of their attack or help someone connect. This lets you force a reroll on someone's attack, but you need to recharge to reuse the ability.
Secondary Abilities:
Wind Blast: Evoke blasts of wind strong enough to move unattended objects like keys and such. You get a wind-based knockdown attack that needs to recharge.
Water Blast: Evoke blasts of water that work like the last ability, but have different MTP applications and give you another special knockdown attack before you need to recharge.
Azure Ascent: Once per day, gain magical flight, but it starts dealing unblockable damage to you if you hold it for more than a couple minutes. The flight comes from obvious glowy energy wings.

- Green
Basic (Combat Healing): Your life magic allows you to heal people nearby, but only works on relatively fresh injuries. Negate a bit of damage from an attack, and you can use this in arenas you aren't in. Need to recharge.
Secondary Abilities:
Overheal: Through channeling a huge amount of life force and directing it very carefully, you can heal people even after the wounds are no longer fresh. Once per day, heal someone a significant amount.
Grasping Vines: Once per day, supercharge plant growth make an arena full of entangling vegetation. You can't exempt someone from getting entangled, so friendly fire is a concern.
Venom Bolt: Fire venom bolts that deal damage over time. It's a Ranged weapon, but has the special property of dealing more damage to someone hit next round if they don't do something to wipe it off.

- Purple
Basic (Touch of Winter): You can fire frost bolts, counting as a Ranged weapon. You may also freeze water and other fluids by touch. This sort of lets you slide over the surface of pools, but the ice melts pretty quickly if the area isn't cold.
Secondary Abilities:
Diamond Dust: Once per day, cover the arena in slippery ice. People fall over easily if they aren't careful, and this ice is magically charged so it won't melt for at least half an hour even in the desert.
Mind Mirror: Once per day, get the ability to read surface thoughts, but it starts dealing unblockable damage to you if you hold it for more than a couple minutes. This gives you a bonus to defence.
Rune Circle: Once per day, create a magical ward around an arena. Entering or exiting the arena triggers a magical attack that is really noisy and flashy. The ward is made of magical runes that can be targeted and destroyed, but it is tough.

- Yellow
Basic (Call Lightning): Once per arena, call down damaging lightning on a particular target.
Secondary Abilities:
Lightning Blade: If you attack someone you succeeded in attacking last round, your attack channels crackling electricity, increasing the damage of a hit. If you attack someone you succeeding in hitting with the electricity-enhanced strike last round, you deal extra lightning damage whether the main hit succeeds or not, but you don't count the attack as a success for the purposes of this ability.
Golden Curse: You can curse enemies. This is essentially the debuff opposite of the buff granted by Red.
Thundershock: Once per arena, use an electricity-based attack that has a chance to stunlock, but doesn't deal much damage. Can only be used on targets in the same arena or connected to you by something really conductive.
Physical attribute DC 10+your level

- Silver
Basic (Weaponmorph): Once per arena, transform your weapon into a weapon of another category.
Secondary Abilities:
Reapercall: Once per arena, everyone in your arena takes a point of damage. Including you, and this doesn't count as an attack.
Retaking the Shell: Once per day, come back from the dead with 1 hit point.
Dimensional Fold Once per day, teleport to another arena without using up your action. You may use this to teleport someone else, but they can resist using any Spiritual Attribute.
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