Earthdawn is now an expansion to Savage Worlds

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:45 am

http://redbrickllc.com/forums/viewtopic ... 3418#p3418

And I am a little sad

EDIT: I should probably clarify that I'm sad that this is what we're stuck with for a while, not sad that it's going away forever.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:39 am

Is Earthdawn exclusively Savage Worlds now, or are they just selling the campaign setting for some extra cash?

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:33 am

Red Brick LLC is the company that produced Earthdawn 3e after producing "Earthdawn Classic" for a while (no one really liked the Earthdawn 2e made by the last folks, so they reprinted 1e). They updated and reprinted all (or at least almost all) of the rules materials that had come out in previous editions, but not all the adventures (since many of the rules updates were number fiddling ones, the old adventures work just fine in the new edition).

Then, according to http://redbrickllc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=274 they seem to have switched publishers, and so they can't even produce any new Earthdawn works until Q3 2012. Instead they're making "Earthdawn for Savage Worlds" and "Earthdawn for Pathfinder" until then.

Also, for reference, the new book size they talk about is about as wide as and slightly shorter than an Encyclopedia Magica.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:10 am

Savage Worlds is terrible.

That is all.

Captain_Karzak · Post by **Captain_Karzak** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:19 am

deanruel87 wrote:Savage Worlds is terrible.

That is all.

Can you talk about why? (I have a GM who wants to run Savage Worlds.)

From what I've been able to pick up from searching the Den, the exploding dice combined with higher skilled characters roll larger die means can a character can either be lucky or good.

This also means that at certain Target Numbers, a less skilled character has a slightly better chance of succeeding on a test than a more skilled character.

Also, shit is badly balanced in the Deadlands setting.

If that's all that's wrong with the system it doesn't sound too bad. Definitely not terrible. OTOH, I haven't heard anything exciting about the system either.

Fucks · Post by **Fucks** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:58 am

Juton wrote:Is Earthdawn exclusively Savage Worlds now, or are they just selling the campaign setting for some extra cash?

The latter- there will be conversions to both SW and Pathfinder in addition to a revised edition of ED3.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:30 am

I have never understood the desire to port Shadowrun or Earthdawn to different systems. I used to rant about it. The thing is, when you have a setting tied so intimately to a system like that, to switch it to a different system requires gutting it and handwaving shit; you basically take everything that made the game different, unique, and interesting and take it out to fit it to somebody else's system.

That probably sounds overblown to people - and for your average gamer, you're probably right. There are lots of people that don't give a fuck if you're a "warrior adept of the third circle" versus "third level fighter"; and most people will hack into blood elves in Pathfinder or Savage Worlds as happily as in a straight ED game. What gets weird is, say, dragons. Nobody gives a fuck what color dragon Mountainshadow is, it doesn't fucking matter in ED, because colors are not a thing that anybody gives a fuck about. Colors are a big thing for dragons in Pathfinder. Colors determine breath weapons, powers, encounter ratings, social hierarchy, half-dragon attributes, Icewing vs. Smaug contests, bizarre slash fiction where it turns out All-Wings was Tiamat or some shit. Nobody gives a shit unless they love the game, but I used to love the game and it makes me sad, like seeing an ex-girlfriend get married to a car salesman. One of those creepy second-or-third generation cars salesmen that works on his dad's lot and always has his hand on her ass and paid for her boob job.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:13 pm

Captain_Karzak wrote:
deanruel87 wrote:Savage Worlds is terrible.

That is all.
Can you talk about why? (I have a GM who wants to run Savage Worlds.)

The biggest complaint I hear is that there is a problem in the skill system, where for certain checks less skilled characters are more likely to succeed. Say you have a d4 in climbing and your buddy has a d6 in climbing. If the DC to climb a cliff is 6 you with the d4 are more likely to to succeed then your buddy. This bugs a lot of people. Also since Savage Worlds seems to be aimed more at the casual audience there are a lot less rules for specific circumstances, so you will run into a lot more GM fiat which can be good or bad depending on DM.

Lord_Dathus · Post by **Lord_Dathus** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:05 pm

RedBrick isn't pulling any of their resources away from their core ED3 line to support these lines, though, and no one who works on these new lines works on ED3. They've also said that these lines are directed at fans of SW and PF, not fans of ED (who should stick with ED3).

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:57 pm

Captain_Karzak wrote: Can you talk about why? (I have a GM who wants to run Savage Worlds.)

Yes I can. In brief;

The health and damage system makes no goddamn sense and is terrible. Seriously go look at it for 5 minutes and try to explain to me how you will live through a single encounter ever.

Like many "lite" products the powers and abilities are poorly defined. I defy you to explain to me how invisibility works in Savage Worlds for instance. As it is totally unclear in the text what happens when an invisible dude walks up to stab you. There are many many instances of vaguely or poorly defined abilities.

There is no indication of what challenges are appropriate for a party. You are given no information as to how many Giant Spiders your Veteran party of 5 is supposed to find challenging.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:12 pm

deanruel87 wrote:There is no indication of what challenges are appropriate for a party. You are given no information as to how many Giant Spiders your Veteran party of 5 is supposed to find challenging.

Totally this.

Contrary to the above, I would propose that I haven't ever made a character in Savage Worlds which was sufficiently challenged by anything in combat. I once went an entire campaign being hit twice.

WILD ATTACK is stupidly effective.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:34 pm

Yes, you wild attack every single attack. And while it is possible to -make- characters with enough system abuse that can't be hit there is no way to make a character that can get hit and still live. Should even 1/6th of opponents attacks hit you you will absolutely be murdered within the first couple sessions.

Basically each hit deals like 1/3rd of your total health and you get weaker as you take damage. So even if there is only a small chance of you being hit the ONE TIME you get hit twice in a row you're a dead man.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:20 pm

I play in a game regularly

The system is terrible because of the skills where a D4 is better than a d6 often. This is something that should be obvious at first glance and shouldn't have made it past editing. Where a non game designer fixes it because it looks like a typo.

The system is terrible because its inconsistent, and poorly explained throughout.

Its damage is super awkward and bad. You are expected to live because the GM only throws weak foes who have no chance to hurt you. They get lucky and you die, or you steam roll them. Occasionally there is a boss fight. In these you die unless you get lucky. They suggest super strong DMPCs to save you.

Stuff is poorly balanced, and much is a straight port from 3.5 dnd squished and shaped to fit their rules.

In general combat works with lots of misses, and then a lucky hit that auto kills. This assumes you made a character who generally can't be hit which isn't too hard. If you choose not to do this, you just die right away.

Anyway, its balanced because the GM won't be a jerk, its a Role playing game (Not Roll playing), and who cares so long as its fun. Also they eyeballed some stuff, but I doubt most got playtested.

**Get lucky above means literally that. They roll a high die, and it explodes, and deals way more than normal damage.** Edit for clarity.

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:16 pm

deanruel87 wrote:Yes, you wild attack every single attack. And while it is possible to -make- characters with enough system abuse that can't be hit there is no way to make a character that can get hit and still live. Should even 1/6th of opponents attacks hit you you will absolutely be murdered within the first couple sessions.

Basically each hit deals like 1/3rd of your total health and you get weaker as you take damage. So even if there is only a small chance of you being hit the ONE TIME you get hit twice in a row you're a dead man.

That's like Hero. Or Shadowrun. Or Gurps. Or Traveller. Or pretty much any system that isn't D&D.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:17 pm

kzt wrote:
deanruel87 wrote:Basically each hit deals like 1/3rd of your total health and you get weaker as you take damage. So even if there is only a small chance of you being hit the ONE TIME you get hit twice in a row you're a dead man.
That's like Hero. Or Shadowrun. Or Gurps. Or Traveller. Or pretty much any system that isn't D&D.

Not Hero, unless you're talking about being stunned.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:30 pm

Ancient History wrote:I have never understood the desire to port Shadowrun or Earthdawn to different systems. I used to rant about it. The thing is, when you have a setting tied so intimately to a system like that, to switch it to a different system requires gutting it and handwaving shit; you basically take everything that made the game different, unique, and interesting and take it out to fit it to somebody else's system.

Actually, I completely agree.

Although as an intellectual exercise, porting or converting anything into anything is innately fun. But I'm not sure I'd actually ever want to play d20 Earthdawn or Shadowrun in HERO System, or whatever.

Unrelated: This thread is the first time I have ever heard anyone, anywhere say anything BAD about Savage Worlds. Although I'm not a big fan of it personally (haven't played it or really read it, not crazy about the concept/mechanics) I've heard only good things.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:46 pm

I'm on the same page with Ancient and Schwarzkopf. Both games have mechanics tailored to their world, and it won't work so well with conversions to other rulesets.

As for Earthdawn, RedBrick has cut all ties with Mongoose, but their contract is valid till June or July (I don't remember which), so they're on hold with their 'revised' Third Edition rulebooks. Where 'revised' means 'with applied errata, and without Kathy Schad's artwork'. That's why they got Laubenstein back in the game, and the cover artwork is from First Edition again.
They lost Kathy Schad along with Karstenn Damm, and they don't have any rights to their work, so besides the new artwork from ED3 they also lost Ardanyan's Revenge, one of the best adventures written for ED.
The Pathfinder and Savage World conversions are an obvious attempt to balance their financial losses. I don't even like the idea, but I've lost all interest in what's going on with ED a while ago...

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:17 pm

hogarth wrote: Not Hero, unless you're talking about being stunned.

Try running non-superheros in light armor vs swords and bows or guns. It's a pretty darn lethal system. "Arrow hits the throat - double body, no armor covers that hit location, rolled 6, he takes 12 body, 12 stun, no defenses. Thump."