Exalted 2.5 on the works

[fectin]

I don't give out willpower or essence for stunts. I learned it that way, though I know that's wrong. I also don't usually give three die stunts, just because I like that bar high.
Most of my players still give short descriptions, but for the most part, they don't confuse longer with better.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with Exalted; at least as happy as 3.5.

[...You Lost Me]

So I'm necro-ing here, but I saw an Exalted core rulebook on sale at Half Price Books for $15. Is this a worthwhile buy?

[Lago PARANOIA]

The first edition book, yes, as long as you know exactly what you're getting into. Like the Mongoose 3E D&D splatbooks. The second edition book, no, unless you like lolis in nude fursuits.

[Previn]

Side note... the 2.5 rules are actually out now.

I've never actually played it, and only given it the briefest of glances so I can't comment on the changes, but I've been told that perfect defenses are no longer a requirement, and the you don't get killed by mote pinging (no idea what that means).

[angelfromanotherpin]

2.5 is an heroic attempt that addresses a lot of issues - but the house is still built on sand.

[Murtak]

2.5 stinks. Stunts now award fewer motes and perfects cost double, which means you can not spam perfects anymore. Minimum damage also went down from (essence) to 1 - or more realistically to 3-ish for a decent artifact weapon. They also very slightly lowered weapon damage. That's about it. And I imagine that when you are talking about optimized characters duking it out the fights now actually end and you see people use something other than perfects, flurrybreakers and basic attacks. So far so good.

On the other hand, fights are not more interesting than before. You are still trying to burn down your opponents mote bar, only now perfecting everything is not an option so you go for a high DV and see whether your opponents hits that and use a perfect soak if he does. And if he uses a crippling effect/shaping attack you use a perfect soak, as before. Optionally you can also get a super-high soak and try to get by with as few perfect soaks as possible. And that is your entire combat script. It is more convoluted now, but it is still a script that does not depend on your input at all.

And if you are talking about starting characters, well, that sucks for them. You used to be able to fight a competent opponent with nothing but a perfect dodge, a decent attack pool and a flurrybreaker. You might have lost that fight, but not instantly and not without a chance to do something. Now you want a high DV, a decent soak, a perfect dodge and a perfect soak and a flurrybreaker. You can get all that at character generation - but you can not get anything else if you do. So basically you play something interesting or you play something survivable.

Oh, and since soak is now useful again Exalted accidentally got rid of everyone who does not use armor - like many martial artists. Heck, you probably want heavy armor now. And since soak is useful again you also want a weapon with a high minimum damage - which means a big twohanded artifact - which in turn ensures that anyone with armor is red goo on the floor. Say goodbye to assassins with daggers, rogues in leather, Mortal Kombat-style martial artists and barbarians with naked chests. As far as I am concerned, 2.5 is worse than 2.0 simply because of this.

[angelfromanotherpin]

And if he uses a crippling effect/shaping attack you use a perfect soak, as before.

AFAICT, perfect soaks still affect only damage, not any 'bad touch' effects like Shaping. The 2/7 filter pattern has not actually changed, it's just become less sustainable.

You can get all that at character generation - but you can not get anything else if you do. So basically you play something interesting or you play something survivable.

Starting characters are not usually facing opponents that demand the paranoia combo. Opening enemies tend to be outcaste DBs and mid-level spirits - there's a lot of margin for error against those.

[FatR]

So, my prediction were pretty much correct and the core problems remain unfixed.

Starting characters are not usually facing opponents that demand the paranoia combo. Opening enemies tend to be outcaste DBs and mid-level spirits - there's a lot of margin for error against those.

No, there isn't. Unless your GM goes out of his way to nerf the enemies. The fundamental discrepancy between health and damage is still there.

[Murtak]

And if he uses a crippling effect/shaping attack you use a perfect soak, as before.

AFAICT, perfect soaks still affect only damage, not any 'bad touch' effects like Shaping.

That should be perfect dodge of course.

You can get all that at character generation - but you can not get anything else if you do. So basically you play something interesting or you play something survivable.

Starting characters are not usually facing opponents that demand the paranoia combo. Opening enemies tend to be outcaste DBs and mid-level spirits - there's a lot of margin for error against those.

Unfortunately there is not a lot of margin at all when getting hit with a two-handed hammer means you are taking 20ish damage on each hit. If you wearing anything but heavy armor (or the equivalent in charms) you want a perfect soak or you don't want to get hit in the first place. And since perfecting everything will run you dry in just a few flurries that requires a high DV or a flurrybreaker - preferably both. And your next opponent might have a crippling attack, which will fuck you up without a perfect dodge (or an even more specific negation charm).

That is a dragonborn with a big hammer or a dragonborn martial artists with a half-finished charm tree. Hardly overpowering opponents. And before 2.5 you would have been fine with a perfect dodge if need be. Mind you I am not saying that this was a good state of affairs. But requiring ten times the investment just to not get smacked around by everyone with a decent offense is just silly.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Murtak, you seem fixated on 100% solutions. Sure, 100% safety is the ideal, but it's also the boring. Attacks do not always hit or always kill when not opposed by perfects.

Let's look at this hypothetical 'big hammer': a Grand Goremaul is baseline +16B, so 20 raw if wielded by someone with its Strength min, and let's say +2 for a moderately successful hit. That's 22B. Even concealable mundane armor takes 8 off of that and at least (also probably at most) another 2 off for the target's Stamina. That's 12B or ~5 bashing HL. It'll fuck you up, but it will not actually kill anyone. And that's before you do anything magical or wear armor distinguishable from heavy clothing. And it's assuming the hit in the first place, which is not a certainty.

I am actually okay if someone in light armor and no soak magic is left hurting when hit with an enormous artifact hammer. I might be offended if they weren't.

There are lower-cost countermeasures than perfects; 3rd Excellency defenses and semi-perfect soaks* are perfectly acceptable against the DBs you mention. Sure, there's a chance you'll get hit and/or hurt.

oh man

an rpg character might take damage

what ever shall we do

Your assertion that starting characters need some sort of expanded paranoia combo to survive is crap. A reasonable investment stands them in reasonable stead against appropriate opposition.


*Although they do seem to have removed the semi-perfect soak; I don't even know how the soak charms actually play out any more.

[Murtak]

Oh please. In your own words, a big hammer will take a moderately armored character from unhurt to crippled in one hit. We are not even talking about a solid hit or damage enhancers here - just one run-of-the-mill successful attack. And even if our example character purchased extra health levels, two hits will down him. Bottom line: without heavy armor or soak enhancers you can not afford even a single hit from a two-hander. Worse, if you are unarmored you can not afford a hit from any weapon.

And that is the entire problem in a nutshell: investing in offense is so ridiculously easy that anyone who does so at all has at least one and more likely multiple ways to at least horribly maim you. Just take a look at a mirror matchup of solars:
A melee Excellency, One Weapon To Blows and Peony Blossom Attack, combined with a big hammer is really all you need to be dangerous. That is three charms (one of which doubles as a defensive charm), a single skill and one artifact that you can get in your mandatory backgrounds.
Similarly a martial artist can take four charms to get to knockout blow, use only a single skill and a mere 1 point artifact and force you to perfect his attacks. That is core only, no weird combinations, just straight up "I am going to invest a third of my charms into harming people"-stuff.

A perfect dodge will take care of all of this of course, but you can't get that up for long. At the very least you also need a flurrybreaker, just to not get drained by a single flurry. At best that means you go for Shadow over Water, Seven Shadow Evasion and Leaping Dodge Method - a similar cost to the offense (minus the cost of the weapon). But all you have done so far is to avoid getting smacked down in a single attack. If you want to last a few rounds of combat you will also need a high DV and a perfect soak (against the guy with the hammer) and a crippling negator (against the martial artist). That means at the very least getting a breastplate, something to raise your DV (hearthstone bracers for example), 3 more charms to get Unbreakable Warrior's Mastery and four more charms for Adamant Skin Technique. That is two skills, two artifacts and all ten of your starting charms, just to be able to participate in a combat against a Solar-level opponent. Mind you, they will still run you out of motes, but it will take a while with that setup.

Offense is so much cheaper than defense in 2.5 it's not funny. It gets a little better against dragonborn and spirits of course, but you are expected to wipe the floor with these guys and you aren't going to do it by outlasting them. Squishing them into goo on the other hand is perfectly possible. That is, if you use a big sword or hammer or perfect-or-die attacks. If you expect to jump around in a ninja costume and swing a chain or other traditional ninja weapon you are fucked.

[mikal768]

Oh, and since soak is now useful again Exalted accidentally got rid of everyone who does not use armor - like many martial artists. Heck, you probably want heavy armor now. And since soak is useful again you also want a weapon with a high minimum damage - which means a big twohanded artifact - which in turn ensures that anyone with armor is red goo on the floor. Say goodbye to assassins with daggers, rogues in leather, Mortal Kombat-style martial artists and barbarians with naked chests. As far as I am concerned, 2.5 is worse than 2.0 simply because of this.

Actually not the case for most PCs, since there are lots of natural armor boosting abilities. For Solars there's a resist charm that taken multiple times makes your natural soak hit the 20s with hardness, which takes care of most people right there.

For Lunars, they still have their regen and natural soak boosters

For everyone else Bones of Stone/Invulnerable Skin of Bronze.

You can still use the concepts you had above if you want to go the soak route but not wear actual armor.

[Silent Wayfarer]

The changes fucked everyone who wasn't a Sidereal or a Solaroid, and even Infernals got a screwing because they're developed for late Ex2.0 stuff and just about every change made to their Charms in 2.5 is a nerf.

Adorjani, for instance, don't have any defenses barring perfect dodges, which is fine for Exalted 2.0 and its emphasis on active defense... but when the core of their defense costs almost three times (3m to 8m) as much in 2.5 with nothing given in return, it pretty much destroys them as a credible combat threat.

Soak has become crucial to Ex2.5 combat, which basically means yet another layer of Charm taxation to become viable in combat. It's harder for non-combat specced people to survive in 2.5 now; whereas you could at least count on perfect spam plus actively fleeing conflict to avoid being ganked, your perfects now cost ridiculous amounts, which means you die that much faster.